the marks of a slave

rida said:

It is hard to focus my mind on tangible aspect of the world when after walking in from work I'm not given even the space to have a glass of water and go pee before being thrown in the whirlwind of a "crisis" ...

I hate not knowing what will the future bring. I hate not having a path or course of action. I hate not knowing what I mean to somebody. I don't deal well with prolonged gray areas. Patience is my lesson in this life, and a hard one indeed.

So when I'd get totally frustrated with the let's thing run their course, or the let's wait and see if we get more elements for a decision approach, I'd do like a mad scientist and introduce a perturbance in the system, mostly in the form of an explosive destruction of the status quo.

Was it to find out what's important to me or what's important to other people?
Good question. It was probably both. Once you destroy something and you have to piece it together, you inevitably face your priorities and also the priorities of the other people involved.

Conflict is when the most progress is made. Perhaps that was (is) the rational behind my creating a conflict to get out of a stalled situation or to speed up the process ...

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I understand this. I have lived this way, too.

I can't handle the stress any more though. Whereas the crises and the conflict used to make me actually think more clearly, I can't handle the adrenalin in the same way I used to.

eastern sun said:

I understand this. I have lived this way, too.

I can't handle the stress any more though. Whereas the crises and the conflict used to make me actually think more clearly, I can't handle the adrenalin in the same way I used to.

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And that's why I've learned to do only "what if" bombs and work out the process in my mind.

Even thou, at time, the feeling awakened by the mental speculations bleed over into real life and we go back to the "working myself up to a frenzy without real external reasons"

My 10 year old daughter informed me yesterday that I pout.

"I do?"

"Yeah, you know, like when Dad eats your spaghetti, you give a little pout. Or when he notices a woman in the restaurant, you pout. Or when he turns the music up really loud."

I laughed and said, "yeah, I guess I do."

I had no idea.

A year ago, I know I was smiling.

to pout - push one's lips forward or one's bottom lip forward as an expression of petulant annoyance or in order to make oneself look sexually attractive

I am far too fortunate to pout for the wrong reason.

I have really enjoyed reading your thread, eastern sun. Its been inspiring and educative.

eastern sun said:

My 10 year old daughter informed me yesterday that I pout.

"I do?"

"Yeah, you know, like when Dad eats your spaghetti, you give a little pout. Or when he notices a woman in the restaurant, you pout. Or when he turns the music up really loud."

I laughed and said, "yeah, I guess I do."

I had no idea.

A year ago, I know I was smiling.

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I wonder at times what mine think and notice about their parent's relationship.

rida said:

I wonder at times what mine think and notice about their parent's relationship.

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I've been wanting to ask you how old your kids are.

Working the Twelve Steps in this M/s context:

Step One - Powerlessness

I am powerless over my own aging and death.
Consequence: fear. pre-occupation with spirituality, myth-making, magical thinking, instead of taking care of myself and taking preventive action to keep myself healthy

I am powerless over my husband's attraction to younger women.
Consequence: fear. jealousy. resentment. contempt. becoming attached to other men, and willing to cross lines I wouldn't otherwise cross, wanting to be someone else

I am powerless over his decision to change careers.
Consequence: jealousy. resentment. loss of our business. loss of my own career. lack of shared experiences outside of the house. isolation and withdrawal.

I am powerless over my son's behavior at school.
Consequence: fear. shame. too much effort on my part to control his behavior. over-analyzing. talking too much. micro-managing.

I am powerless over his teacher's and his peer's reactions.
Consequence: blame. letting my son off the hook. people-pleasing in an effort to smooth his way, coupled with judgmental attitudes.

I am powerless over my fear of my son (his emotional volatility).
Consequence: I support his behavior, allowing him to dominate and manipulate me.

I am powerless over my fear of things falling apart.
(my house, my relationship, my kids, me)
Consequence. shame. weariness. need to always be the one who fixes things. not enough play and relaxation. holding tension, burdens. weight.

I am powerless over what other people think of me or say about me.
Consequence. fear. shame. trying to please people so they'll like me. making assumptions about other people, projecting my fears on them, and second-guessing my own actions.

I am powerless over my internet habit.
Consequence: lost time. delays. procrastination. neglected children.

I am powerless over our modern American culture, the actions of our political leaders, military atrocities and economic irresponsibility.
Consequence: fear. shame. withdrawal. isolation. superiority complex coupled with abdication of responsibility.

I am powerless over my unwillingness to change.
Consequence: guilt. stuck-ness.

Granted it's depersonalized a bit for reasons of anonymity. And one big omission has to do with my powerlessness over my husband's sexuality, but I don't know how to talk about it here. Apparently, in the words of my new sponsor, the next step is to identify the "insanity" that accompanies my efforts to "feel cherished."

sadie_lust said:

I have really enjoyed reading your thread, eastern sun. Its been inspiring and educative.

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Thank you. Good luck in your search. Be patient.

And - to everyone who's searching - don't limit yourself. Don't forget to look for people you like as a whole person, not just masters/mistresses who will give you the sex you want.

"cherish" -
1. protect and care for (someone) lovingly
2. to hold (something) dear
3. (of a hope, idea, or memory) think of longingly and lovingly


I had to look up the word. It's not part of my vocabulary.

strange. why not?

eastern sun said:

One big omission has to do with my powerlessness over my husband's sexuality, but I don't know how to talk about it here.

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I have to tackle it. It goes right to the heart of both my desires and my struggles in the M/s relationship.

I am powerless over my husband's sexuality. Which means, no matter how hard I try, I cannot create desires in him that don't exist, nor remove desires that do, nor dictate on any level how his sexuality will be manifested in his behavior.

I fall into the trap of thinking that if I behave in certain ways, I will be able to arouse him. It gives me the illusion of control. It allows me to think that I have had some hand in creating his sexual response. But I also fall into the trap of thinking that his responses will be predictable.

Then, when his responses change (due to any number of circumstances), I feel betrayed. By my own expectations.

So, I philosophically accept the fact that I am powerless over his sexuality, which means it could include one activity one day, and not the next. Or it could include me one day, and not the next. In the beginning, I work overtime to make myself so desirable that he wouldn't even consider not including me in every activity every day of his life. . . . and I exhaust myself. It isn't sustainable.

So I yield. I accept the fact that I might not be included. I might spend my days and nights alone. And I am lonely. I look to others to fill his absence, and try to convince myself that they are better able to satisfy my desires than him. He thinks this is what I want, and likes the way it makes him feel. So it becomes mandatory.

But now I have lost my bearings. I no longer know what I want or why I want it. I'm just trying to cope with my powerlessness over his sexuality.

At first I thought this musing would be about topping from the bottom. But straight bottoming can set it all in motion too.

There are so many discussions about who really has control in a D/s relationship. Well, the truth is that each party only has control of him/herself. Even the masters who wield power through fear need the submissive who's willing to be frightened.

And, God help us all, given the strength of these sexual drives - we barely have control over ourselves. Maybe that's how we get caught thinking the other one has all the power.

ownedsubgal said:

strange. why not?

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I don't know. I think we threw it out of the language 25 years ago, while we were still young and hard-hearted.

Though you receive harsher physical treatment, I think you feel more cherished in your relationship than I do.

Thank you for the Powerlessness posts.

So many points I can relate to.

I like to believe that I've accepted to be powerless.
In practice thou I still fight nail and tooth trying to "fix" stuff beyond my control. Or torture myself with it. I've accepted that it might be part of my own emotional masochism.

(In relation to my kids, two girls, I try to make sure to have as much influence on them as possible before they hit the teen years ... after that, it's going to be interesting ...)

As for the "the insanity" that accompanies you efforts to "feel cherished." ... perhaps we have to accept that by being wired into D/s submission and even more so into M/s slavery, part of us is indeed "insane".

As an aside, I prefer to define myself as socially functional (and I'm very broad in my definition of it as well) rather then some abstract as "sane" or "normal". After all as far as you can function, that is all that should matter.

eastern sun said:

In my experience, one source of recurring turbulent feelings is the internal conflict between two opposing cherished ideas. (i.e. your philosophical views and your sexual fantasies)

Untangling these psychological knots is part of the fun.

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I am such a liar. Look. I used the word "cherish." Just a few posts back.

So how come I think I don't?

rida said:

I like to believe that I've accepted to be powerless.
In practice thou I still fight nail and tooth trying to "fix" stuff beyond my control. Or torture myself with it. I've accepted that it might be part of my own emotional masochism.

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That's interesting, rida. Associating that compulsive need to "fix" things beyond one's control with emotional masochism.

"insanity" in the twelve step programs is a bit of a buzzword for behaviors and ways of thinking that repeatedly make things worse rather than better. It also implies a willingness to accept increasingly chaotic and/or dangerous circumstances in order to continue an escalating addictive behavior pattern. And habits of denial and rationalization.

Though I'm used to this concept of "insanity" in relation to substance abuse, I'm not at all sure I accept it when it's related to my desire and/or need for love.

rida said:

Thank you for the Powerlessness posts.

So many points I can relate to.

I like to believe that I've accepted to be powerless.
In practice thou I still fight nail and tooth trying to "fix" stuff beyond my control. Or torture myself with it. I've accepted that it might be part of my own emotional masochism.

(In relation to my kids, two girls, I try to make sure to have as much influence on them as possible before they hit the teen years ... after that, it's going to be interesting ...)

As for the "the insanity" that accompanies you efforts to "feel cherished." ... perhaps we have to accept that by being wired into D/s submission and even more so into M/s slavery, part of us is indeed "insane".

As an aside, I prefer to define myself as socially functional (and I'm very broad in my definition of it as well) rather then some abstract as "sane" or "normal". After all as far as you can function, that is all that should matter.

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I'm still taking that post in, and can also relate to some of the things mentioned.

I struggle sometimes with my powerlessness over the way my husband speaks, to me and to others. Nothing major. He is just very strong-willed and dominant, which is mostly very attractive and compelling. Sometimes I feel somewhat awkward with others though, like I wonder what people are thinking. Again, nothing major - I just get a little nervous with people who don't know him. I know, who cares what other people think, blah blah, but I don't really want to give the impression that we're in a power exchange relationship. Anyway, and then between the two of us, sometimes when he hits a hot button topic, I sometimes bristle in response. We have talked about this a lot, and again, I generally am attracted to these aspects of his personality (duh), but I just need to let it go.

Hope that made sense.

D/s, to me, is a lot like love itself. It's one of these things that we impose onto ourselves that gives us a feeling of changing outcomes in life, but there are plenty of outcomes in life that simply do not give a shit about how we have chosen to relate to each other.

Almost no one has control over the sexuality of another person, no matter how much you may spin it - it's like saying someone has achieved total mind control. Even as people leave insular religious movements, the question of authoritarian mind control still hasn't been completely sorted out - why some people are more controlled than others, how anyone would ever leave if the control was total, etc.

D/s control is mainly a shorthand for a kind of sexual (don't have a cow, I mean sexuality/emotional) enmeshment, a baseline compatibility between needing to feel controlled and needing to feel in control. But the idea that this control takes away problems, conflicts, and challenges is a seductive one to a lot of people, and in my experience and observation, it usually doesn't.

I'm not worried about younger women, but I am worried about the impact of the fact that the man I married may not want to remain one at all for the rest of his life, and is increasingly unhappy about the situation, increasingly androgynyzing (?) his appearance whenever and wherever context allows and pondering bodily alterations. I'm supportive, I actually want to buy him boobs.

I have no problems with this theoretically or even sexually, but there are baseline emotional responses still - "I love you, you're terrific, don't change a thing. What?" As well as the fact that I will be losing the privileged position that perceived male protection gives me (even with a pretty metro this is considerable) , and that I, in fact, may be the layer of protection between him, me, and a hostile world. Winding up a butch lesbian after all, or walking around with a man whose sexuality is clearly delineated queer - again, nothing I mind, I already move through the world that way, but it's another level of it when it's less option and more self-protection.

Not all the pants-wearin' swagger on earth is going to change this on my part. His mind has been like this since he was a child, it's not going to fall in line with whatever I want for status quo.

The main lesson in my 30's, since my late 20's actually is to accept imperfection and impermanence as romantic realities. No matter who you're considering. When I'm talking about impermanence I don't mean run for the hills, I mean acceptance of impermanence as a life condition permeating everything, even the things you really like.

Oddly enough, M leaving me for a man or for a woman or for whatever, isn't part of the neuroses package this time around. I think I "get" him in a way that he's unlikely to find in anyone else. But mysterious long-held secrets have a way of driving people apart, and I can't coast on that assumption either, I have to be very diligent to stay in touch and on top of my partner's issues and how they intersect and become a better listener.

Which I really have come a long way on, thinking about it.

Lol, I feel like a douche for mentioning something so small.

intothewoods said:

Lol, I feel like a douche for mentioning something so small.

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It's not small, ITW. I live with a human steamroller, I know how challenging that can be.

I still fight the urge to run around behind him and apologize to people for his behaviour at times. I've mostly let it go. Mostly.

Keroin said:

It's not small, ITW. I live with a human steamroller, I know how challenging that can be.

I still fight the urge to run around behind him and apologize to people for his behaviour at times. I've mostly let it go. Mostly.

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It's so not small. There's no way I could deal with that, isn't that funny? I literally itched at what you said itw. It's weird.

Netzach said:

It's so not small. There's no way I could deal with that, isn't that funny? I literally itched at what you said itw. It's weird.

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That is kind of funny and weird.

I live with it because I have my own big bundles of weirdness that he accepts. Sometimes we accept better than other times. It's a constant, double tight rope act but I'd have it no other way.

Not many people could live with either of us, lol.

Still challenging, though.

Keroin said:

That is kind of funny and weird.

I live with it because I have my own big bundles of weirdness that he accepts. Sometimes we accept better than other times. It's a constant, double tight rope act but I'd have it no other way.

Not many people could live with either of us, lol.

Still challenging, though.

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I think I couldn't live with it because I remember M having to pacify this nurse at family practice this week when they told me I didn't need an appointment for my TB test reading last week and then magically I did. I went New York on her.

Assholes. There can be only one.

Netzach said:

I think I couldn't live with it because I remember M having to pacify this nurse at family practice this week when they told me I didn't need an appointment for my TB test reading last week and then magically I did. I went New York on her.

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LOL. I think the last time I went “New York” was about five years ago dealing with some idiot at the credit bureau who was treating me like trailer trash and refusing to listen to what I had to say, (they’d sent me to collection because someone at my bank had failed to cancel my business Visa as I’d requested when I left the country– luckily I had written evidence). But it takes a lot to push me that far.

The duality of our natures seems to work in a weird yin-yang sort of way, though, when dealing with outsiders. I’m the lovable diplomat who gets us upgrades and free stuff; he’s the bad cop that deals with the morons and ball breakers. When it works, it’s very win-win. When it doesn’t…eek.

I’m guessing you and M have your own yin-yang?

I think the biggest battle we had was when I had to lay down the law about my writing, plant my flag and post the “Keep Out” sign. He fought very hard to get in but I won.

But I know exactly where ITW is coming from, as far as worrying what strangers think. I have to remind myself that I thought he was an arrogant bastard when I first met him and that didn’t stop me from becoming his friend, (and then more).

Netzach said:

I think I couldn't live with it because I remember M having to pacify this nurse at family practice this week when they told me I didn't need an appointment for my TB test reading last week and then magically I did. I went New York on her.

Assholes. There can be only one.

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Ha ha, yeah, I'm kind of an asshole too, when pushed. I think that's some of the issue for me. This came up at the doctor's office recently. My personality is more persistent, let's figure out how to make this work, and he was ready to go apeshit. Now, these were very challenging circumstances, but still, I was thinking, um, honey, let me handle this!

Actually, I've been dying to get this story of my chest. We were in the doctor's office and they were giving me my options. Mr. Man says, ok, we'll do x. I say, yeahhh, we will, and then when they left, I laugh and say, ok, honey, seriously, could you turn down the Dom gene for a sec? This isn't the 1950s, so I don't believe my husband can just make medical decisions for me, unless I'm unconscious or something. And we laughed about it.

Now, look, he and I were actually on the same page, and he was out of his mind upset and just wanted to have some sense of control (helllo powerlessness in our lives!), but I am guessing my female OB with the successful practice was thinking, wtf?

Keroin said:

LOL. I think the last time I went “New York” was about five years ago dealing with some idiot at the credit bureau who was treating me like trailer trash and refusing to listen to what I had to say, (they’d sent me to collection because someone at my bank had failed to cancel my business Visa as I’d requested when I left the country– luckily I had written evidence). But it takes a lot to push me that far.

The duality of our natures seems to work in a weird yin-yang sort of way, though, when dealing with outsiders. I’m the lovable diplomat who gets us upgrades and free stuff; he’s the bad cop that deals with the morons and ball breakers. When it works, it’s very win-win. When it doesn’t…eek.

I’m guessing you and M have your own yin-yang?

I think the biggest battle we had was when I had to lay down the law about my writing, plant my flag and post the “Keep Out” sign. He fought very hard to get in but I won.

But I know exactly where ITW is coming from, as far as worrying what strangers think. I have to remind myself that I thought he was an arrogant bastard when I first met him and that didn’t stop me from becoming his friend, (and then more).

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Thank you for posting that, K. I guess it's all kind of funny considering he's recently stepped up the D/s control and I've really liked it. I'm just a little paranoid about people suspecting someone. Some people know that I'm kinky who I wish didn't know (for various reasons), and I just grimace at the idea of people thinking they have me figured out. But anyway.

He's actually mostly reserved and shy when you first meet him. Just in case we all go out to coffee someday! No one be surprised when Mr. M is silent. Anyway, like you said, when the dynamic works it's just so good, but occasionally there are these things that make me stand up straight and push way back. What can I say? I'm complicated!