Tax the Rich?

Carnal_Flower said:

Here we go again.

1. Fuck the poor, get off your asses.

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Still can't read, you missed the point.

Point being that trickle down isn't designed to help people who don't want to help themselves.

It only benefits those who participate, those who participate are already likely "rich" and as such trickle down only helps them and not everyone. That doesn't mean it's not there or doesn't work.

(R)'s overstate it's effect and over sell it, (D)'s point to it's failure to induce the communist utopia as evidence of it's fallacy....both are full of shit

Carnal_Flower said:

2. The D's are always "rat-fucking" the working class as if that's a bad thing.

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Yep, it is (D)egeneracy at it's finest.

Carnal_Flower said:

If the Dems constantly "fuck over" the working class, and you whole heartedly support the motto of "fuck the poor," then that makes you an enthusiastic D.

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Working class =/= poor, usually it's quite the opposite.

I support neither party, so no.

What?

Right, because pointing out that "Trickle Down" never works naturally means "communism" is the only answer

BotanyBoy said:

Still can't read, you missed the point.

Point being that trickle down isn't designed to help people who don't want to help themselves.

It only benefits those who participate, those who participate are already likely "rich" and as such trickle down only helps them and not everyone. That doesn't mean it's not there or doesn't work.

(R)'s overstate it's effect and over sell it, (D)'s point to it's failure to induce the communist utopia as evidence of it's fallacy....both are full of shit



Yep, it is (D)egeneracy at it's finest.




Working class =/= poor, usually it's quite the opposite.

I support neither party, so no.

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Except D's are entirely right on the point of trickle down and R's are entirely full of shit. There isn't a middle ground but you work for the R's now Bot. Why, they don't like you at all.

Carnal_Flower said:

What?

Right, because pointing out that "Trickle Down" never works naturally means "communism" is the only answer

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That's so far from what I said it doesn't even make sense.

What I said was that (D)'s like to point out that because "Trickle Down" doesn't result in the communist utopia, it never works.

Which is bullshit.

It does work naturally, it just doesn't have the communist utopian effect of helping everyone....which is the insane standard you and the rest of the left demand.

Sean Renaud said:

Except D's are entirely right on the point of trickle down and R's are entirely full of shit.

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No they aren't and no they aren't.

R's oversell it and D's are overcritical, both have valid points and both bull shit about it.

Sean Renaud said:

There isn't a middle ground but you work for the R's now Bot.

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Not if you're a hardcore partisan there isn't....if you live in the real world though you can see both are right and wrong and equally overhyped v. overcritical.

I work for the R's? LOL

No...I'm just not buying the (D)'s bullshit anymore after thy've fucked me for the umpteenth time, given me shit in return and then expected praise for it.

Sean Renaud said:

Why, they don't like you at all.

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Neither do Dems....who also hate me with a white hot searing passion.

Different reasons, but they still fucking HATE me, actively alienate and discriminate against me every bit as much as the most bigoted fucks in blood red B'ama and Texas.

I'm a capitalist, business owner, liberal, pro civil rights, male and had the audacity to be born to a white woman....which literally makes me a Nazi.

Alllllll big fucking no no's for (D)'s.

Dems would love you if you'd stop bashing us and no, nothing about Trickle Down holds true in the modern world. Name a single aspect that actually holds up today.

Sean Renaud said:

Dems would love you if you'd stop bashing us

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Bullshit.

I'm liberal (actual, not lefty poser hiding behind the label), capitalist, male and white enough and that makes me the fucking ENEMY of mankind and scourge of the planet as far as Dems are concerned.

A huge number of (D)'s has made that point VERY clear and the (D)'s as a political party seem to have embraced that.

And as a political party they deserve some bashing....they've been pathetic fucking sell outs and most of them outright need to be fucking voted out, not supported and protected at any cost.

Sean Renaud said:

and no, nothing about Trickle Down holds true in the modern world.

Name a single aspect that actually holds up today.

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Yes it does, but really only for those who participate in successful exchanges.....bidnizz owners and investors absorb most of it. If you're not participating at that level, if your not actively engaging the markets beyond 9-5 and collecting a check then you almost certainly will never see any benefit beyond the possible continuation of your existence as a wage slave.

THAT is why the "rich" only benefit from "trickle down" ....for the most part they are the only ones participating.

Everyone else does their shift, collects a check, pays bills and then immediately blows the rest on not making more money. So they don't benefit.

Unfortunately most of the punditry seems to think that having a political philosophy makes one an economist. These are complex topics.

It is foolish to simply state that lowering taxes always benefits economic activity. In many cases it does. But it isn't a truism that applies all the way to 0%. A basic level of publicly funded services is needed to ensure a stable society in which economic activity can thrive. And some social safety net is a reasonable feature of a compassionate society. If you accept that premise then you must accept the reality that tax cuts cannot always be the answer.

It is equally foolish to simply state that wealth redistribution can solve society's ills at the same time as it removes the motivation to excel (yes people are motivated by greed and status - deal with it) and directly reduce economic output as a result. It is nonsense to assume that all people are equally diligent and hard-working. If you accept that premise then you must accept the reality that unlimited social programs cannot be the answer.

Here in Canada we often hear the quip that "tax cuts only benefit the rich". It is true....because the poor don't pay tax or pay a negligible amount. I support a progressive tax system. I am not making a values judgment - just a factual observation.

The pundits are fond of saying that the increases in wealth over the last few decades have accrued disproportionately to the wealthy. Most of the data seems to suggest that is true. But what is the starting point? Back in the 50's and 60's our countries embraced labour movements that divorced compensation from productivity. There was no empirical basis for believing that someone with no education and no skills should be able to earn today's equivalent of $30+/hour with benefits and pensions and guaranteed employment.

We don't have economies based upon fair sharing of wealth we have economies based upon labour and capital grabbing as much as they can for themselves. Neither is inherently virtuous or interested or patriotic. Big business is using globalism to keep labour in check. And two decades ago labour used their power to bleed companies dry.

It is all a balancing act. More of any one thing is never the answer. Too often we are like five children each claiming a quarter of one piece of pie - each claiming their own "rights" while ignoring the fact that there is not enough to satisfy everyone's demands. There is plenty of pie, but you have to look at the whole thing and count the number of people not just claim your entitlement.

Absorb as in soak it all up: it does NOT "trickle down," then, does it?

Well alrighty, then by that definition (which is nowhere near how it's sold to the general public), THERE IS NO TRICKLE DOWN. YOU ARE IN OR OUT TO GET AS MUCH AS YOU CAN.

What you're describing is something, but it has NOTHING to do with the myth. It's not "trickle down" whatsoever.

BotanyBoy said:

Bullshit.

Yes it does, but really only for those who participate in successful exchanges.....bidnizz owners and investors absorb most of it. If you're not participating at that level, if your not actively engaging the markets beyond 9-5 and collecting a check then you almost certainly will never see any benefit beyond the possible continuation of your existence as a wage slave.

THAT is why the "rich" only benefit from "trickle down" ....for the most part they are the only ones participating.

Everyone else does their shift, collects a check, pays bills and then immediately blows the rest on not making more money. So they don't benefit.

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You're an idiot.

It's not Dems which try and sell this myth, it's Rs.

THEY are the ones claiming that trickle down benefits everyone, from the top down. THEY are the ones selling a "communist utopia" by your definition: the Dems are saying No, it doesn't work.

BotanyBoy said:

It does work naturally, it just doesn't have the communist utopian effect of helping everyone....which is the insane standard you and the rest of the left demand.

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Carnal_Flower said:

Absorb as in soak it all up: it does NOT "trickle down," then, does it?

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Yes it does.

Just because it doesn't spur the egalitarian utopia doesn't mean it doesn't.

Carnal_Flower said:

Well alrighty, then by that definition (which is nowhere near how it's sold to the general public), THERE IS NO TRICKLE DOWN. YOU ARE IN OR OUT TO GET AS MUCH AS YOU CAN.

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I stated that (R)'s oversell it.

Yes there is trickle down....if you are out there getting it.

If you're at home jerking off all day or unwise in how you manage your time/money then you'll miss out.

That doesn't mean there isn't trickle down.

Carnal_Flower said:

What you're describing is something, but it has NOTHING to do with the myth. It's not "trickle down" whatsoever.

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Yes, it's called trickle down economics, it's the core of the myth that it was meant to be some cure all for poverty.

Carnal_Flower said:

You're an idiot.

It's not Dems which try and sell this myth, it's Rs.

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I never said it was, learn to read smarty pants.

Carnal_Flower said:

THEY are the ones claiming that trickle down benefits everyone, from the top down. THEY are the ones selling a "communist utopia" by your definition: the

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I said they oversell it, learn to read smart stuff.

Carnal_Flower said:

Dems are saying No, it doesn't work.

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Which is also a lie....to bullshit about the fact that it does work, just not for most of their demographics.

How does cutting the estate tax trickle down?

The whole idea behind trickle down is that if you shove enough money at the top, it will naturally fall down the rest of the pyramid, particularly in the form of "good jobs."

You haven't said one thing about how that's supposed to work, especially for normal working class people . You've only admitted the ones at the top are going to soak it all up. Yet somehow, there's also going to be all this surplus magically floating around.

The big cuts offered go far above what average Joe would ever benefit from directly. But presumably, Joe Schmo is going to be playing the stock market at the same time as scrounging enough for food and rent?

They don't claim it's going to cure poverty, they claim it's going to "spur the economy" and then, voila, there will be manufacturing plants and coals mines opening up again.

That's what this whole plan is called, the R Tax Reform AND JOBS bill.

Tax Reform for the top 1% ----> Jobs for the rest of the country.

That's the myth of Trickle Down

Average Joe is not being promised a great shot at becoming a whiz in the stock market; he's being promised an explosion of WORK. What average Joe CAN go out and get is a great job, supposedly.

The point is, acc to Dems

Tax Cuts for the 1% ----> XXX Do Not Equal Job Growth

BotanyBoy said:

Yes it does.

Just because it doesn't spur the egalitarian utopia doesn't mean it doesn't.



I stated that (R)'s oversell it.

Yes there is trickle down....if you are out there getting it.

If you're at home jerking off all day or unwise in how you manage your time/money then you'll miss out.

That doesn't mean there isn't trickle down.

Yes, it's called trickle down economics, it's the core of the myth that it was meant to be some cure all for poverty.

I never said it was, learn to read smarty pants.

I said they oversell it, learn to read smart stuff.

Which is also a lie....to bullshit about the fact that it does work, just not for most of their demographics.

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Carnal_Flower said:

How does cutting the estate tax trickle down?

.... yada yada yada

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For what exactly is the government imposing an estate tax? There is NO reason for a government to impose a tax other than for some substantial NEED that is a constitutional need... what NEED is fulfilled by imposing a tax of envy like an estate tax?

Carnal_Flower said:

The whole idea behind trickle down is that if you shove enough money at the top, it will naturally fall down the rest of the pyramid, particularly in the form of "good jobs."

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No.

The whole idea behind trickle down is that if you don't punish business for success, business will grow which will result in more jobs.

Which to some extent is true, how far is dependent upon a lot of factors. But it's not anywhere near the economic silver bullet cure all the (R)'s church it up to be.

Carnal_Flower said:

You haven't said one thing about how that's supposed to work, especially for normal working class people .

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Yes I have but you didn't read....for the umpteenth time.

I said for most people it's just more available wage slavery.

Carnal_Flower said:

Tax Reform for the top 1% ----> Jobs for the rest of the country.

That's the myth of Trickle Down

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More like the top 30%.

That's not entirely a myth though, depending on circumstance it very much can spur on jobs and growth.

The myth is that it will bring back manufacturing, works regardless of circumstances and is always a good idea.

Carnal_Flower said:

The point is, acc to Dems

Tax Cuts for the 1% ----> XXX Do Not Equal Job Growth

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Then they are just wrong.

You haven't turned yourself in yet, traitor? Move fast. Time grows short.

coachdb18 said:

For what exactly is the government imposing an estate tax? There is NO reason for a government to impose a tax other than for some substantial NEED that is a constitutional need... what NEED is fulfilled by imposing a tax of envy like an estate tax?

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Quit spewing your needy bullshit. The Constitution says what it says, not what you want it to say. It says Congress levies taxes as it sees fit "to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States".

The "general Welfare" includes prevention of huge accumulations of wealth in dynasties that can buy governments and suborn the rule of law -- hence, estate taxes. Let the children of wealth work for their own money, not leech off their ancestors. Rich lazy slugs do not promote "the general Welfare."

Turn yourself in now, traitor, before it gets even worse for you.

Really? Not all of the wealthiest families made their money in "business." And what about the estate tax? What about people who are simply making money from money they already have and have no intention of putting it into "business."

I actually agree with a tax cut for small BUSINESSES.

BUt of course, you know CRAP about what's actually in this bill and WHO it actually rewards.

And what you say here is the myth.

I'm guessing you didn't see Gary Cohn's little Q & A with top CEOs recently? Of course not. You don't even know who he is.

The entire room of CEOs when asked how many of them will "expand" or "re-invest" in their business and start hiring more only 2 or 3 raised their hands. Go look it up. They have no intention of it. They're going to dole it out to their shareholders, DUH, or buy up their own stock.

CEO's Admit They'll Pocket Their Tax Breaks, Not Hire


You're just regurgitating R talking points and not even doing it that well.

BotanyBoy said:

No.

The whole idea behind trickle down is that if you don't punish business for success, business will grow which will result in more jobs.

.

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Carnal_Flower said:

The entire room of CEOs when asked how many of them will "expand" or "re-invest" in their business and start hiring more only 2 or 3 raised their hands. Go look it up. They have no intention of it. They're going to dole it out to their shareholders, DUH, or buy up their own stock.

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Note that many corporate shareholders are foreign banks and sovereign funds. Gups want to funnel tera-bucks (that's trillions) from American workers to foreign financiers. None dare call it Treason.

Funds not dispersed thus will be used to buy competitors 'cause that's cheaper than developing new business. Of course many redundant workers will be fired, er I mean freed to seek employment in the fast-food, janitorial, and chicken-plucking industries.

Carnal_Flower said:

Really? Not all of the wealthiest families made their money in "business."

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100% got it from engaging in profitable exchanges....aka bidnizz.

Carnal_Flower said:

And what about the estate tax?

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What about it?

Carnal_Flower said:

What about people who are simply making money from money they already have and have no intention of putting it into "business."

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You can't simply make money from money.

You can lay a 100 dollar bill on the table for a millennia and it will never become 200 bucks. You have to invest it in something, a business or a commodity. Be it a weed wacker so you can join a lawn crew and make some money or stocks one way or another you have to risk that 100 bucks to grow that 100 bucks.

Carnal_Flower said:

I actually agree with a tax cut for small BUSINESSES.

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They operate the same way big bidnizzizz do...big bidnizzizz start out as small ones.

Carnal_Flower said:

The entire room of CEOs when asked how many of them will "expand" or "re-invest" in their business and start hiring more only 2 or 3 raised their hands.

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And there you have it....real trickle down, it does happen.

Interesting article from the Fake News on the Fake Trump Tax Plan

As tax plan gained steam, GOP lost focus on the middle class

Inside the White House, Trump was being urged by his chief strategist, Stephen K. Bannon, a key voice behind the president's economic populism, to hit the very wealthy.

At a meeting in April, Bannon urged that the Trump tax plan create a new 44*percent tax rate on income above $5*million, said three people briefed on his proposal who weren't authorized to talk about Oval Office discussions. He argued that this was a way to ensure that the wealthiest Americans didn't benefit too much from any changes and that working-class Americans could support the proposal.

Bannon "pushed that for several weeks as a way to gather political support for the tax bill. He's more of a populist, obviously," said Steve Moore, a conservative economist who helped Trump craft his tax plan during the campaign

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By July, within the White House, Cohn and Mnuchin were running the show. Bannon, a deeply controversial figure in the administration, had left, a voice for a more populist tax plan exiting with him.

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Beginning in 2023, households that bring in less than $30,000 would all average a tax increase, according to the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, Congress's official scorekeepers. And by 2027, all income groups that earn less than $75,000 would see their taxes go up. That's because although the bill allows all the individual tax code provisions to expire, it retains a less generous method of calculating inflation than are currently in use, which effectively pushes workers into higher tax bracket faster.

Larry Kudlow, who advised Trump during the 2016 campaign and is a big supporter of the tax cuts for businesses, said the changes for individuals and families amounted to a "mishmash."

Asked if the tax package in aggregate would mean a middle-class tax cut, Edward Kleinbard, a former chief of staff for the Joint Committee on Taxation, said: "That's delusional or dishonest to say. It's factually untrue."

He added, "The only group you can point to that wins year after year and wins in very large magnitude is the very highest incomes."

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Trump was just in FL yesterday whining and bitching about Washington. Meanwhile he's the one who agreed to cave in and is right now selling this bullshit as a "middle class tax cut."

Yes you can

You can't simply make money from money.

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Which is why I agree with lowering taxes and giving a lot of breaks to small, developing business, so they can grow. When they become yuge, it's a different story.

They operate the same way big bidnizzizz do...big bidnizzizz start out as small ones.

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Not in the slightest degree that would make a difference.

And there you have it....real trickle down, it does happen

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.

Carnal_Flower said:

Trump was just in FL yesterday whining and bitching about Washington. Meanwhile he's the one who agreed to cave in and is right now selling this bullshit as a "middle class tax cut."

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It gets bad -- for the tax bill re-writers. California and other high-deduction states are working on plans to finesse their laws to retain SALT deductions, saving taxpayers a lot of money – but exploding the federal deficit. Gups are fucking with fire. Gonna burn their weenies right off.

Carnal_Flower said:

Yes you can

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No you can't, what you're saying is a bold face lie, you got called on it now own it.

Carnal_Flower said:

Which is why I agree with lowering taxes and giving a lot of breaks to small, developing business, so they can grow. When they become yuge, it's a different story.

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It's not at all a different story.

Carnal_Flower said:

Not in the slightest degree that would make a difference.

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Like I said, it doesn't meet the communist utopian criteria of magical money just showing up for everyone....so (D)'s hate it and say there is no such thing! It doesn't work!

LOL

Hypoxia said:

It gets bad -- for the tax bill re-writers. California and other high-deduction states are working on plans to finesse their laws to retain SALT deductions, saving taxpayers a lot of money – but exploding the federal deficit. Gups are fucking with fire. Gonna burn their weenies right off.

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You have to admire the chutzpah, if not the hypocrisy, of leftists suddenly claiming to care about national debt. They were fine with it when President Obama and the Democrats nearly doubled over two centuries' worth of accumulated debt in just 8 years (while gutting the military and never achieving even 3% GDP growth).



More importantly, moderate tax reforms such as those currently going to Conference Committee have historically increased government revenues. See, generally, B. Domitrovic & L. Kudlow, John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan Proved Tax Cuts Work, Time (Sep. 29, 2016); M. Geewax, JFK's Lasting Economic Legacy: Lower Tax Rates, NPR (Nov. 14, 2013); D. Mitchell, The Historical Lessons of Lower Tax Rates, (Aug. 13, 2003).

Indeed, if California and other high tax states can figure out a way "to finesse their laws to retain SALT deductions" (which I doubt they can do, as the IRS will be the primary arbiter of the issue), it would be a good thing. As I wrote yesterday:

DawnODay said:

I heard on the radio a reputable source that the Senate version of tax reform would actually raise taxes on 14% of current taxpayers. The example given was an individual taxpayer, making $200,000.00 annually, who lives in a high tax state and itemizes. I think this is a big mistake.

The reason the Senate plan does this is because the Senate sought deficit neutrality based on recent economic conditions. What that ignores, of course, is that tax reforms like those being proposed inevitably lead to economic growth and increased revenue. Let's hope the Conference Committee comes up with a viable version that provides needed tax relief to all tax payers!

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Somehow retaining the SALT deductions would fix the biggest flaw in the Senate version of reform!

First we did care, and second Obama and the Democrats had relatively little to do with the doubling of the debt. It's kinda hard to be super mad when they simply cannot do anything.

Also, the deficit would be rather less if Congress' corporate owners weren't receiving huge windfalls, which will be funneled to investors (many overseas), or used for stock buybacks, but not for job creation. Voodoo economics don't work.

Point is, Senate rules mandate deficits within certain limits, and if those limits are blown, they MUST reduce the payouts. As the article shows, state officials have recourse beyond yet more lawsuits. Convert non-deductibles into deductibles, all playing within the rules, and Gup traitors' projections are blown to shit. Start over, boys.

Oh, remember how Tromp promised higher corporate taxes, lower personal taxes, and a strengthened safety net? Ha ha. Fooled y'all, suckers. Tromp was right. Gup voters ARE the dumbest around.

PS: That Obama deficit increase? Remember that Dubya's gang collapsed the economy and left the n!gger the shitty job of cleaning up their fucking mess. N!ggers always get the shitty jobs. It's in the Constitution.