Why do they lump BDSM together?

KoPilot said:

Oh boy... -snicker-

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I'll bring the popcorn.

I know what I think. And I'm not interested in what I think as much as I am interested to hear what others think.

Stella O. What made you change your view and how do you see the factualities?

I could see how it would be possible for people to exploit one side or the other's stance to the benefit of their own needs or wants - is that what you are talking about? Or something else/more?

Why I say it is too far apart is because one side who, having a strongly sexual perspective, would not have any automatic appreciation of any other party who had a strongly non-sexual perspective on certain behaviours. And unless these things were clearly spelled out before any involvement was to start, I don't see how anything other than miscommunication and problems would result.

Desiremakesmeweak said:

Why I say it is too far apart is because one side who, having a strongly sexual perspective, would not have any automatic appreciation of any other party who had a strongly non-sexual perspective on certain behaviours. And unless these things were clearly spelled out before any involvement was to start, I don't see how anything other than miscommunication and problems would result.

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Well duh. You're supposed to be doing that anyways, whether your scene is going to involve the mystical magical powers of PIV or not.

You didn't answer Stella's question, either, which coincidentally your entire argument here hinges upon. (Not that anyone's going to agree with you on your distinction which pretty much makes your point null to begin with, but...)

Desiremakesmeweak said:

'Sexual' BDSM, and 'non-sexual' BDSM - are too far apart to be 'lumped in together.'

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Without context just a stupid comment.


Let's sum this up:

"Cycling, running and swimming shouldn't be lumped together, they are way too different! And triathletes are not real people anyway and even if they are, just a minority. The Olympic games have nothing to do with sports, after all there are people participating who dope - this is a well-known fact and therefore we should accept that Olympic games are not real."

Desiremakesmeweak said:

Why I say it is too far apart is because one side who, having a strongly sexual perspective, would not have any automatic appreciation of any other party who had a strongly non-sexual perspective on certain behaviours. And unless these things were clearly spelled out before any involvement was to start, I don't see how anything other than miscommunication and problems would result.

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Healthy relationships (especially ones based on power exchanges) tend to involve a lot of communication, so the theory that sexual & non-sexual behaviors are automatically going to cause problems [to to a lack of communication], is ummm... odd, IMO.

As someone who leans towards both service and sexual styles of submission, I frankly don't give a rat's ass if he appreciates the things I do for the reasons I do them [sexual or not]. I do care that he appreciates me, as a person.

Reading this thread, I wonder if BDSM is being linked together for convince rather than what each aspect is. I'm thinking along the lines of Band-aid or Kleenex. It is just something that is lumped together than for its individual parts?

Desiremakesmeweak said:

I know what I think. And I'm not interested in what I think as much as I am interested to hear what others think.

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A few posts back it was a noisy crowd.

Anyway, as others pointed out, it's not as easy to define "sexual" as you'd think.

Also, BDSM is not just a dating pool.
No, we don't automatically appreciate each other. Involvement, even with a lot of communication, can be difficult to impossible.
That doesn't mean that we can't learn from someone who does the same things or even just similar ones for a totally different reason.
There is a point in banding together with others to create places to meet, resources and awareness and I don't think it's necessary to like everyone or everything to do that.

Lrn_The_Ropes said:

Reading this thread, I wonder if BDSM is being linked together for convince rather than what each aspect is. I'm thinking along the lines of Band-aid or Kleenex. It is just something that is lumped together than for its individual parts?

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I'm pretty sure some lesbians, gay people, bisexual people and transgender people don't necessarily agree with being 'lumped together' in the LGBT acronym either (LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA, QUILTBAG, FABGLITTER, etc.) - but at least some people have found it helpful to work together under that umbrella of community (both imagined and real) and commonalities and have made some useful changes in the process.

I don't know the history of the 'BDSM' community as well, but I imagine much the same must have happened, or is happening.

Kewl. Now... As long as we can get Crimea, to stay lumped in with The Ukraine, and maybe have some Israeli stettlements just thrown in there just because, Washington and NATO will be happy that everyone can get along. lovl.

Too. Far. Apart.

Think of a kink and you'll find it in BDSM. It's just a catch all term for all of the kinks out there. And there are a lot of kinks, so we're lucky there are only 4 letters in the term.

Desiremakesmeweak said:

I know what I think. And I'm not interested in what I think as much as I am interested to hear what others think.

Stella O. What made you change your view and how do you see the factualities?

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What made me change my understanding? Speaking to people-- listening to the actual words they say, instead of the noise in my head, the way youve been doing, old chum, and I grant it is not at all easy-- who are genuinely asexual, they say so and I have to believe them, who nevertheless experience euphoria and joy and connection with others through the physical/emotional interplay of BDSM. Without orgasms.


Like you, I am highly focussed on sexuality, and can hardly concieve of any part of my world with out a little but of pussy rubbed on it, so to speak. But my worldview is pretty extreme, and *I understand that.*
Because I know myself to be on the dogend of the damn bell curve it behooves me to understand that other people lie elsewhere. I've had a lifetime to get used to this notion, which is why I'm not in jail or something.

I could see how it would be possible for people to exploit one side or the other's stance to the benefit of their own needs or wants - is that what you are talking about? Or something else/more?

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I have to wonder about this insistance of yours, this constant harping on exploitation. I mean, sure, people's needs can be exploited and used to meet another person's needs. And I bet you've done so, possibly without being aware of it. I've certainly done so. But exploitation is not the only way to play with strangers. I have been willing to play non-sexually-- but with connection. Wow, was i surprised to discover how pleasurable it could be!

Why I say it is too far apart is because one side who, having a strongly sexual perspective, would not have any automatic appreciation of any other party who had a strongly non-sexual perspective on certain behaviours. And unless these things were clearly spelled out before any involvement was to start, I don't see how anything other than miscommunication and problems would result.

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Well, here's how it worked for me; We were sitting there over coffee, and she said;
"I want to ask you-- do you expect sex when you play? Because I don't like to have sex in my scenes."
"Yes, I always do. Are you sure you don't want to have sex?"
"noo... I really don't. Maybe we should say goodbeye okay? No hard feelings."
"Dammit, because I think you would be perfect for this new rope position I just learned. Want to just try it? You can keep your panties on."
"Can I get your promise you won't try..."
"Pinky promise."
So I tied her up and sadistic'ed all over her and it was damn obvious that she was loving it. And although I was turned on like crazy, I had promised, and so I let my own sexual energy meet her non-sexual pleasure halfway and I felt way the hell satisfied.

*shrug*

Your mileage might vary, but how would you ever know?


But I'm still wondering, how do you, personally, define 'sexual' and 'non sexual'?

Remember these are individuals, not nations.

GrrlFriday said:

I'm pretty sure some lesbians, gay people, bisexual people and transgender people don't necessarily agree with being 'lumped together' in the LGBT acronym either (LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA, QUILTBAG, FABGLITTER, etc.) - but at least some people have found it helpful to work together under that umbrella of community (both imagined and real) and commonalities and have made some useful changes in the process.

I don't know the history of the 'BDSM' community as well, but I imagine much the same must have happened, or is happening.

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Bingo, I think.

DVS said:

Think of a kink and you'll find it in BDSM. It's just a catch all term for all of the kinks out there. And there are a lot of kinks, so we're lucky there are only 4 letters in the term.

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and that too.

Desiremakesmeweak said:

Kewl. Now... As long as we can get Crimea, to stay lumped in with The Ukraine, and maybe have some Israeli stettlements just thrown in there just because, Washington and NATO will be happy that everyone can get along. lovl.

Too. Far. Apart.

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You never answered the question-- how are you defining sexual and non-sexual?

Desiremakesmeweak said:

Kewl. Now... As long as we can get Crimea, to stay lumped in with The Ukraine, and maybe have some Israeli stettlements just thrown in there just because, Washington and NATO will be happy that everyone can get along. lovl.

Too. Far. Apart.

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Oh, let's just drop that NATO thing. Too far apart, really.

GrrlFriday makes a good point. No need to sing kumayah.

Stella O. Your honesty and generosity/preparedness to be explicit about emotional details and elements sets you apart from quite a few, in my mind.

And that, especially on a board like this one, is very valuable. I mean it would be valuable anyway if people expressed themselves as openly but of course they often don't - and I don't for that matter!!

I think I recall a Jimi Hendrix dictum: 'smash the mirrors, smash your own mirrors that prevent you from seeing the rest of the world, and from them seeing you.' It's a great idea. But it's not an easy idea to implement for those who are in the grip of what others might or will think of them. Or, for those who do already have a public profile and a professional one at that which other people rely on. Even though I am who and what I present as being pretty much all the time and in all circumstances, that is a far cry from explicitly going into my own intimate relationships and laying them all out transparently.

Do I have that kind of self-confidence? No, I don't think I do... Different kinds of self-confidence about different subjects, but not that particular personal intimate one at all. Not publicly anyway.

And so this brings me to whether I would even be ABLE to outline where I think the line between sexual and non-sexual or even asexual is crossed for me; because yes for sure I would have exploited the seemingly non-sexual relationship for my own interpretations, but that might have been a long time ago, really. It is not the sort of thing I need to do for 'satisfaction' today. And the way I do things these days is a 'personal evolution.' That is, I do what works for me, and leave all the stuff that by experience I know does not, for me.

Oh I must tell you I am VERY impressed when you say you were 'satisfied.' I'm impressed because you see so FEW people today say they are satisfied by ANYTHING.

I like it when someone says 'I was satisfied.'

That's a good thing.

Do I think someone doing non-sexual BDSM makes it 'not BDSM?' No I don't think that at all.

People have already appropriated the terminology to suite A VAST range of things; it's far too late to stop them defining it every which way they choose. Holy fuck. The genie's out of the bottle well and truly.

BDSM is completely not an underground thing anymore.

...Except... in rl relationships between some people who wish to remain as private and discreet as possible - and that yet involve what EVERYONE would recognize as BDSM - those things are STILL completely 'underground.'

And they involve sex.

What is sex? In context of 'sexual BDSM...'

Well I personally mean in this particular context every possible intimate act that everyone would generally say IS a sex act, is going to happen, or may happen, or could happen, without any contraint. That is, both or all (i.e. 'several of') parties know beforehand that every sexual act is on the table. Is this as a result of a driving force generated by Bondage, Domination, Sadism, or Masochism? Or, is the sex drive the participants to BDSM 'actions?' I have no idea. Never thought about it.

Now sure of course in this circumstance it means that people exclude themselves from time to time because of any number of reasons - I'm not being dogmatic at all. But, people like me tend to gravitate to other people like me! Sexual people.

I could easily theorize about some non-sexual BDSM event that I theoretically could become involved in or with - but it ain't me generally speaking.

Loose morals? Slut? Or am I involved with such 'types'? No I don't think so.

But the conclusion for me in my own situation is that BDSM is totally different (from acknowledged non-sexual or asexual BDSM) when it ALWAYS involves and is expected to involve sexual expression that has no pre-set limitations.

I'm not defining 'sexual masochism' as someone who seeks to be thwarted from a sex act or sex expression thereby somehow being 'masochistic' because they have suffered 'the pain' of denial or self-denial. It was mildly fashionably funny idea ten years ago (or was it fifty years...) I think that is a bit of a tendentious definition; people are wont to try to use it, but it is what it is. It's a bit 'cute' really - as in funny, until it just gets very laboured after a while and loses all novelty. It loses novelty for me quickly and I know it does for others too.

I read that post three times, and still can't make head nor tails of it, beyond a healthy dose of pre-judgment, with a side of judgement.



Are there cliff notes?

Desiremakesmeweak said:

Well I personally mean in this particular context every possible intimate act that everyone would generally say IS a sex act, is going to happen, or may happen, or could happen, without any contraint.

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This is a non-answer.

If you're making the claim that there exists under no uncertain circumstances a decidedly not arbitrary line between sexual and non-sexual kink that makes them irreconcilable, then your definitions of the two can't be fucking arbitrary.

And yeah, I can't make heads or tails of the rest of your post either.

Desiremakesmeweak said:

People have already appropriated the terminology to suite A VAST range of things; it's far too late to stop them defining it every which way they choose. Holy fuck. The genie's out of the bottle well and truly.

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People do tend to use language, understand it differently, and change it in the using. There's an old joke about asking 5 Dominants what dominance is, and getting 10 different responses that seems to fit here?

CutieMouse said:

I read that post three times, and still can't make head nor tails of it, beyond a healthy dose of pre-judgment, with a side of judgement.



Are there cliff notes?

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KoPilot said:

This is a non-answer.

If you're making the claim that there exists under no uncertain circumstances a decidedly not arbitrary line between sexual and non-sexual kink that makes them irreconcilable, then your definitions of the two can't be fucking arbitrary.

And yeah, I can't make heads or tails of the rest of your post either.

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And now I've run out of popcorn. Fortunately, I'm planning to go to Costco later on. I think they have their special 55-gallon drum of cheddar corn and caramel corn mix on special this month.

Here is how I define sexual; Any act that is somewhat focused on the genitals and other pleasure-points like nipples and necks, in a larger proportion than other organs, with orgasm being, if not the outright goal, then at least a possibility or maybe a threat.

Here's how I define non-sexual; any act which does not focus on the genitals and other etc, in which the pleasure will not involve orgasms, or their possibility, or maybe threat.

Here's how I decide how other people's play works; It's not my call.

here's how I define satisfaction; Anytime I find myself driving home and spending the twenty minutes or so grinning like a baboon, slamming my fist into the car seat, and saying out loud to nobody; "GodDAMN that was great!"

You need to listen to Jimi, my friend. Smash the mirror. In fact, if he really did say that, that is astoundingly prescient, because the psychoanalytic concept of projection, which is what he's talking about really, wasn't even a thing back when my man was still with us.

I went to a talk by a famous Leather Master, and he said one important part of a good BDSM relationship-- and every other -- was to 'make yourself transparent.' When your sub, he said, tries to project onto you the faults he fears, do not be his mirror, be a clear sheet of glass. Let those projections go right past you. And what I want you to mull over for yourself-- no one else-- is this; How much are you projecting? Because there ain't no mirror here. And I hear people say they are satisfied mighty often.

All I know is that despite being one of the few, if not only, person here who regularly partakes in sexless kink, I seem to fit in just fine.

ETA: Desiremakesmeweak, you will probably have a lot to gain from reading Shades of A, a comic about an asexual kinkster. (Other folks might enjoy it too.)

Jesus. Lucky I don't tell you guys what to do, eh? As much as you tell me what to do...

Read the comic.

I am right now wiggling a toe deep deep, very deep into the New Zealand, thick pile wool carpet.

I might buy a copy of this comic book and flick it on top of the Jarrah coffee table.

And get * to piss all over it in honour of university students everywhere.

And in that '*' there is a world of meaning.

And a world of trouble if you knew what I meant because they just don't make comic books about the people I know.

Desiremakesmeweak said:

Jesus. Lucky I don't tell you guys what to do, eh? As much as you tell me what to do...

Read the comic.

I am right now wiggling a toe deep deep, very deep into the New Zealand, thick pile wool carpet.

I might buy a copy of this comic book and flick it on top of the Jarrah coffee table.

And get * to piss all over it in honour of university students everywhere.

And in that '*' there is a world of meaning.

And a world of trouble if you knew what I meant because they just don't make comic books about the people I know.

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WTH?

No, no. no. Don't make someone else do your pissing. OWN your urine. You want to soak a comic book, do it yourself. Do it for the honor of 50-something Doms who are baffled that the world keeps on not submitting to them.

You've hit the bottom of my give-a-shit reserve, dude.

Desiremakesmeweak said:

Jesus. Lucky I don't tell you guys what to do, eh? As much as you tell me what to do...

Read the comic.

I am right now wiggling a toe deep deep, very deep into the New Zealand, thick pile wool carpet.

I might buy a copy of this comic book and flick it on top of the Jarrah coffee table.

And get * to piss all over it in honour of university students everywhere.

And in that '*' there is a world of meaning.

And a world of trouble if you knew what I meant because they just don't make comic books about the people I know.

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"So, since you're pontificating about how wildly different you are from a group of people you don't know the first thing about, here's a way for you to start knowing what you're talking about."

"You're not the boss of me!"

And the rest, as they say, was purple prose.