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Old 12-12-2006, 10:20 PM   #1
gargouille
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Schools begin to support Gender Variant Children

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Originally Posted by the NYT, via my email

Supporting Boys or Girls When the Line Isn't Clear
By PATRICIA LEIGH BROWN
Published: December 2, 2006
NY Times


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/02/us...&ei=5070&en=69


OAKLAND, Calif., Dec. 1 - Until recently, many children who did not conform
to gender norms in their clothing or behavior and identified intensely with
the opposite sex were steered to psychoanalysis or behavior modification.

But as advocates gain ground for what they call gender-identity rights,
evidenced most recently by New York City's decision to let people alter the
sex listed on their birth certificates, a major change is taking place among
schools and families. Children as young as 5 who display predispositions to
dress like the opposite sex are being supported by a growing number of young
parents, educators and mental health professionals.
Doctors, some of them from the top pediatric hospitals, have begun to advise
families to let these children be "who they are" to foster a sense of
security and self-esteem. They are motivated, in part, by the high incidence
of depression, suicidal feelings and self-mutilation that has been common in
past generations of transgender children. Legal trends suggest that schools
are now required to respect parents' decisions.

"First we became sensitive to two mommies and two daddies," said Reynaldo
Almeida, the director of the Aurora School, a progressive private school in
Oakland. "Now it's kids who come to school who aren't gender typical."
The supportive attitudes are far easier to find in traditionally tolerant
areas of the country like San Francisco than in other parts, but even in
those places there is fierce debate over how best to handle the children.
Cassandra Reese, a first-grade teacher outside Boston, recalled that fellow
teachers were unnerved when a young boy showed up in a skirt. "They said,
'This is not normal,' and, 'It's the parents' fault,' " Ms. Reese said.
"They didn't see children as sophisticated enough to verbalize their
feelings."

As their children head into adolescence, some parents are choosing to block
puberty medically to buy time for them to figure out who they are - raising
a host of ethical questions. While these children are still relatively rare, doctors say the number of referrals is rising across the nation. Massachusetts, Minnesota, California, New Jersey and the District of Columbia have laws protecting the rights of transgender students, and some schools are engaged in a steep learning curve
to dismantle gender stereotypes. At the Park Day School in Oakland, teachers are taught a gender-neutral vocabulary and are urged to line up students by sneaker color rather than by gender. "We are careful not to create a situation where students are being boxed in," said Tom Little, the school's director. "We allow them to move back and forth until something feels right."

For families, it can be a long, emotional adjustment. Shortly after her
son's third birthday, Pam B. and her husband, Joel, began a parental journey
for which there was no map. It started when their son, J., began wearing
oversized T-shirts and wrapping a towel around his head to emulate long,
flowing hair. Then came his mother's silky undershirts. Half a year into
preschool, J. started becoming agitated when asked to wear boys' clothing.
En route to a mall with her son, Ms. B. had an epiphany: "It just clicked in
me. I said, 'You really want to wear a dress, don't you?' "

Thus began what the B.'s, who asked their full names not be used to protect
their son's privacy, call "the reluctant path," a behind-closed- doors
struggle to come to terms with a gender-variant child - a spirited
5-year-old boy who, at least for now, strongly identifies as a girl,
requests to be called "she" and asks to wear pigtails and pink jumpers to
school. Ms. B., 41, a lawyer, accepted the way her son defined himself after she and her husband consulted with a psychologist and observed his newfound comfort with his choice. But she feels the precarious nature of the day-to-day
reality. "It's hard to convey the relentlessness of it, she said, "every
social encounter, every time you go out to eat, every day feeling like a
balance between your kid's self-esteem and protecting him from the hostile
outside world."

The prospect of cross-dressing kindergartners has sparked a deep
philosophical divide among professionals over how best to counsel families.
Is it healthier for families to follow the child's lead, or to spare
children potential humiliation and isolation by steering them toward
accepting their biological gender until they are older?
Both sides in the debate underscore their concern for the profound
vulnerability of such youngsters, symbolized by occurrences like the murder
in 2002 of Gwen Araujo, a transgender teenager born as Eddie, southeast of
Oakland.

"Parents now are looking for advice on how to make life reasonable for their
kids - whether to allow cross-dressing in public, and how to protect them
from the savagery of other children," said Dr. Herbert Schreier, a
psychiatrist with Children's Hospital and Research Center in Oakland.
Dr. Schreier is one of a growing number of professionals who have begun to
think of gender variance as a naturally occurring phenomenon rather than a
disorder. "These kids are becoming more aware of how it is to be
themselves," he said.

In past generations, so-called sissy boys and tomboy girls were made to
conform, based on the belief that their behaviors were largely products of
dysfunctional homes.
Among the revisionists is Dr. Edgardo Menvielle, a child-adolescent
psychiatrist at the Children's National Medical Center in Washington who
started a national outreach group for parents of gender-variant children in
1998 that now has more than 200 participants. "We know that sexually
marginalized children have a higher rate of depression and suicide
attempts," Dr. Menvielle said. "The goal is for the child to be well
adjusted, healthy and have good self-esteem. What's not important is molding
their gender."

The literature on adults who are transgender was hardly consoling to one
parent, a 42-year-old software consultant in Massachusetts and the father of
a gender-variant third grader. "You're trudging through this tragic,
horrible stuff and realizing not a single person was accepted and understood
as a child," he said. "You read it and think, O.K., best to avoid that. But
as a parent you're in this complete terra incognita."

The biological underpinnings of gender identity, much like sexual
orientation, remain something of a mystery, though many researchers suspect
it is linked with hormone exposure in the developing fetus. Studies suggest that most boys with gender variance early in childhood grow up to be gay, and about a quarter heterosexual, Dr. Menvielle said. Only a small fraction grow up to identify as transgender. Girls with gender-variant behavior, who have been studied less, voice extreme unhappiness about being a girl and talk about wanting to have male anatomy. But research has thus far suggested that most wind up as heterosexual women.

Although many children role-play involving gender, Dr. Menvielle said, "the
key question is how intense and persistent the behavior is," especially if
they show extreme distress. Dr. Robin Dea, the director of regional mental health for Kaiser Permanente in Northern California, said: "Our gender identity is something we feel in our soul. But it is also a continuum, and it evolves."
Dr. Dea works with four or five children under the age of 15 who are
essentially living as the opposite sex. "They are much happier, and their
grades are up," she said. "I'm waiting for the study that says supporting
these children is negative."

But Dr. Kenneth Zucker, a psychologist and head of the gender-identity
service at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, disagrees
with the "free to be" approach with young children and cross-dressing in
public. Over the past 30 years, Dr. Zucker has treated about 500
preadolescent gender-variant children. In his studies, 80 percent grow out
of the behavior, but 15 percent to 20 percent continue to be distressed
about their gender and may ultimately change their sex. Dr. Zucker tries to "help these kids be more content in their biological gender" until they are older and can determine their sexual identity - accomplished, he said, by encouraging same-sex friendships and activities like board games that move beyond strict gender roles.

Though she has not encountered such a situation, Jennifer Schwartz,
assistant principal of Chatham Elementary School outside Springfield, Ill.,
said that allowing a child to express gender differences "would be very
difficult to pull off" there. Ms. Schwartz added: "I'm not sure it's worth the damage it could cause the child, with all the prejudices and parents possibly protesting. I'm not sure a child that age is ready to make that kind of decision."
The B.'s thought long and hard about what they had observed in their son.
They have carefully choreographed his life, monitoring new playmates,
selecting a compatible school, finding sympathetic parents in a babysitting
co-op. Nevertheless, Ms. B. said, "there is still the stomach-clenching fear
for your kid." It is indeed heartbreaking to hear a child say, as J. did recently, "It
feels like a nightmare I'm a boy."

The adjustment has been gradual for Mr. B., a 43-year-old public school
administrator who is trying to stop calling J. "our little man." He thinks
of his son as a positive, resilient person, and his love and admiration
show. "The truth is, is any parent going to choose this for their kid?" he
said. "It's who your kid is."

Families are caught in the undertow of conflicting approaches. One suburban
Chicago mother, who did not want to be identified, said in a telephone
interview that she was drawing the line on dress and trying to provide "boy
opportunities" for her 6-year-old son. "But we can't make everything a power
struggle," she said. "It gets exhausting."

She worries about him becoming a social outcast. "Why does your brother like
girl things?" friends of her 10-year-old ask. The answer is always, "I don't
know." Nila Marrone, a retired linguistics professor at the University of
Connecticut who consults with parents and schools, recalled an incident last
year at a Bronx elementary school in which an 8-year-old boy perceived as
effeminate was thrown into a large trash bin by a group of boys. The
principal, she said, "suggested to the mother that she was to blame, for not
having taught her son how to be tough enough."

But the tide is turning. The Los Angeles Unified School District, for instance, requires that students be addressed with "a name and pronoun that corresponds to the gender identity." It also asks schools to provide a locker room or changing
area that corresponds to a student's chosen gender.

One of the most controversial issues concerns the use of "blockers,"
hormones used to delay the onset of puberty in cases where it could be
psychologically devastating (for instance, a girl who identifies as a boy
might slice her wrists when she gets her period). Some doctors disapprove of
blockers, arguing that only at puberty does an individual fully appreciate
their gender identity.

Catherine Tuerk, a nurse-psychotherapi st at the children's hospital in
Washington and the mother of a gender-variant child in the 1970s, says
parents are still left to find their own way. She recalls how therapists
urged her to steer her son into psychoanalysis and "hypermasculine
activities" like karate. She said she and her husband became "gender cops."
"It was always, 'You're not kicking the ball hard enough,' " she said.
Ms. Tuerk's son, now 30, is gay and a father, and her own thinking has
evolved since she was a young parent. "People are beginning to understand
this seems to be something that happens," she said. "But there was a whole
lifetime of feeling we could never leave him alone."
Any thoughts or feelings about this?
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:30 PM   #2
AussieAngel
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holy shit.

Poor kids..

But yeah. I think schools do need to be more sensitive about stuff like that. Teachers could do with being trained in how to deal with stuff like that. I mean Teachers affect the kids loads. teach them so much about society and interacting with others. If theres a problem in the playground its the teacher that sorts it out. school is when kids get the most interaction with others there age. or so i would figure. correct me if i'm wrong.

A teacher being an absolute arse about something can affect a kid forever. I dont know how to portray how serious i am about that.

Kids have that curiosity that makes them accept things fairly well.. I mean.. Kids are being molded to live in a world now where homosexuality is fairly well accepted.

Transgender has gotta be then next thing..
Eeek. where am i going with this.. Quick Angel wrap it up!

OK.. soo.. my view is that if the teachers are gonna be mature enough to do what is best for the kids.. and can be coached in how to deal with it i think it is great that they could accomidate transgender kids. If some difficulty can be spared for them in that they can have a supporting environment for them.. well great..

my apologies for this not making much sense..

It is just one of those days.

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Old 12-13-2006, 12:15 AM   #3
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You're making sense. You make two very good points: that children are now becoming adjusted to same sex relationships, and that accomodating gender variant kids in a supportive environment is good. Taking it a bit further, by bringing gender variant kids into the classroom, it makes gender variant people more familiar and less threatening. This makes it easier for us to gain acceptance as they grow into adulthood.
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Old 12-13-2006, 06:58 AM   #4
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Wow... to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles.

On one hand, a little boy who goes off to school wearing a skirt and calling himself Sally is likely to be ridiculed, alientated, isolated, and worse, and spend half his life in therapy.

On the other hand, he represses his feelings and becomes a closet cross-dresser until finally, after half a lifetime of therapy, he decides to alter his gender physically.

I don't think children understand the cruelty that can result from other people's reactions. But I've heard too many stories about people who had absolutely miserable childhoods because they just knew they were born the wrong sex. What to do?

Yes, the long-term answer is to break down the stereotypes that cause the bad feelings and the need for psychoanalysis. But for now, I don't know if I'd send little Johnny to school in a dress. I would want to protect him from the horrors of intolerance until he's mature enough to cope with it. The thing about administering blockers to stave off puberty? No way! I just think that's inconceivable... stop the maturing process until they become more mature?

Here's what I find interesting... little Johnny wants to be a girl, so he wants to dress like a girl. That, to me, sounds like we're perpetuating the sterotype. Little kids shouldn't need to worry about whether they're feminine or masculine. They should just be little kids. I think honesty, openness and education are the best ways we can help them deal with the sex issue when it becomes important.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:15 PM   #5
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these children need to know its okay to be themselves if johnny is a girl in his mine then call her jenny and let her live her life growing up as a girl. My only regrets about my life now as i persue the process of becoming a woman is that i didn't go through with it sooner in life while i was still a young child. If they start hormones near or at puberty the results are stunning you wouldn't be able to tell lil jenny apart from other girls in a year or 2. those teen years of puberty are where men learn to be men and women learn to be women if you don't fit in the gender roll your genetics assigned you. You will always fill out of place and even when your happy your not happy for a long time. As time goes on it eats at you a bit more and more till you can't take it. You have to become what you are inside, you risk alienating your friends your family and to make matters worse the further you get away from puberty the less convincing you are at fitting into your mental gender with just hormone treatments, you then need sugeries that cost a fortune but since you stick out like a sore thumb you can't get employed in higher paying jobs or you can't work in certain jobs because of risk to your health because of peoples hate. So in the long run its better to start young then later on.
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Old 12-14-2006, 04:31 AM   #6
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10 years ago when my son was 4 the preschool teacher took me to one side and said that he want to dress up in skirts and female dress-up clothes all the time. I was worried she was about to tell me they had stopped him from doing it. BUT she said they had told him he could only wear one dress at a time. He was trying to wear 4 dresses at a time.

He grew up from birth with girls to play with in our social circle so he thought dresses and barbie dolls were ok cause the other kids (girls) he played with them all the time and wore them. As he progressed through school and was around boys more he no longer shows the female clothing as a want. But he knows he can talk to me about everything.

We have a trans-gender Member of Parliament here in New Zealand so it is quite ordinary to hear about it on TV etc. New Zealand has learnt because of this lovely lady the trans-gender is ok.

There are some High Schools here that have 'unisex' toilets along with male and female toilets. Not all schools as it depends on the board of governors how far they want to go as it is not law they have to have unisex toilets.

We have a great Rainbow Youth organisation for people under the age of 27 to access.
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:50 PM   #7
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The teachers may become more supportive but I fear for the children. To be honest, as overworked as teachers are these days, there's no protecting them from the worst - their peers.

Children are brutal against those of their own ages. I'm not so sure it's wise to encourage this in a school. I can see a lot of children who have those types of needs being abused and ending up in therapy due to repression.
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Old 12-16-2006, 01:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night_Jasmine
The teachers may become more supportive but I fear for the children. To be honest, as overworked as teachers are these days, there's no protecting them from the worst - their peers.
I'm a teacher, and I have to admit that you have a point. I have no way to protect a kid from getting jumped on the streets or getting called a name when I'm out of hearing range. I can create a safe space as best I can, and I can (and have) go off on a child for using a derogatory term, but there's only so much I can do.

I'm not these kids parents and I can't reverse the lessons they learn at home.

If I had a trangendered child, I'd abide by whatever they want to be called and do whatever I could to make them comfortable. I can see fellow teachers who are overly rightwingish refusing to and it causing a tremendous stir.
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Old 12-16-2006, 05:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deliciously_naughty
I'm a teacher, and I have to admit that you have a point. I have no way to protect a kid from getting jumped on the streets or getting called a name when I'm out of hearing range. I can create a safe space as best I can, and I can (and have) go off on a child for using a derogatory term, but there's only so much I can do.

I'm not these kids parents and I can't reverse the lessons they learn at home.

If I had a trangendered child, I'd abide by whatever they want to be called and do whatever I could to make them comfortable. I can see fellow teachers who are overly rightwingish refusing to and it causing a tremendous stir.
my aunt is also a teacher, two of them actualy, so are a few friends
it is an incredible amount of work, plus half the time the parents dont even realize it and just call some teachers lazy(though some are, like my solaris prof) and so the kids pick it up as well that teachers blah blah blah...
and end up not listening to the teachers
it can be quite a hassle...

as for the rightwingest
if they act like that, they're not being teachers, they're being fascists
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Old 12-16-2006, 10:26 PM   #10
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I hate it that the excuse given for why "xxxxx" behavior shoudln't be allowed is because the poor child will be ridiculed in school. Can you tell me ANYONE who wasn't ridiculed in school? The prettiest girl was backstabbed by other jealous girls, the ugly girl was ostracized, the nerdy girl was left out, the friends of the prettiest girl were always made to feel inadequate, SO WHAT if you add "boy who wore dress was laughed at" to that list? At least he got a normal school experience too. Just like the rest of us. There are probably a select lucky few who think they weren't teased or miserable in school too. They were either homeschooled or they forgot what it was like really quick after they graduated high school.

I think it's great that kids are being shown transgender and cross-dressing individuals at an early age.
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Old 12-17-2006, 02:20 AM   #11
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The kids don;t know the diffrence, esp in kindergarden. it is the parents who make the noise, and the noise is picked up by the kids. at that age, noone cares. children should be left to their own devices to determine who they are. instead, the opposite happens and many parents dictate their childrens personality. children look up to their parents as role models, one should always be aware, those little people see and hear EVERYTHING. tolerance is taught by mommy and daddy when kids are still forming their personalities. unfortunatly, intolerance is passed down the same way.
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Old 12-17-2006, 05:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernsky
I hate it that the excuse given for why "xxxxx" behavior shoudln't be allowed is because the poor child will be ridiculed in school...
If I was teased or ridiculed in school because I wore plaid shorts, I would probably not make my child wear plaid shorts to school. That's harmless enough. But I'm talking about hurtful, hateful actions that can permanently damage a child. I'm talking about physical and psychological abuse... the things we, as parents, are responsible to protect our children against. And really, my comments mostly address the part of the article about really young children; Elementary school kids who are not likely to make a conscious, informed and mature decision about not only the cost of what they want to do, but of which gender they ultimately want/need to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southernsky
I think it's great that kids are being shown transgender and cross-dressing individuals at an early age.
I'm not sure if I have a cogent argument against this, but something doesn't feel right about it. I just think some things should be left to learn later. Like I said, kids should just be kids. Let's not throw too much at 'em before they get to kindergarten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BosozokuX
The kids don;t know the diffrence, esp in kindergarden. it is the parents who make the noise, and the noise is picked up by the kids. at that age, noone cares. children should be left to their own devices to determine who they are. instead, the opposite happens and many parents dictate their childrens personality. children look up to their parents as role models, one should always be aware, those little people see and hear EVERYTHING. tolerance is taught by mommy and daddy when kids are still forming their personalities. unfortunatly, intolerance is passed down the same way.
I agree. This may not be a popular opinion, but I think maybe some people are using their children to prove their point or demonstrate their beliefs without considering the impact on the child. (And that goes for the bigots and homophobes too.) I wore the towel on my head, pretending to be a girl too for a while, and I've wondered at times if I wouldn't rather be female. But I enjoy being a man, and I'm thankful I made that choice when I was mature enough to decide for sure.

Our children do see and hear EVERYTHING. Just be the person you want to be. Be the person you want your children to be. They'll pick up on that. Initially, they'll emulate you and eventually they'll make their own choices based on the values (for better or worse) that you've taught/shown them.
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Old 12-17-2006, 10:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJontherocks
I'm not sure if I have a cogent argument against this, but something doesn't feel right about it. I just think some things should be left to learn later. Like I said, kids should just be kids. Let's not throw too much at 'em before they get to kindergarten.



I agree. This may not be a popular opinion, but I think maybe some people are using their children to prove their point or demonstrate their beliefs without considering the impact on the child. (And that goes for the bigots and homophobes too.) I wore the towel on my head, pretending to be a girl too for a while, and I've wondered at times if I wouldn't rather be female. But I enjoy being a man, and I'm thankful I made that choice when I was mature enough to decide for sure.

Our children do see and hear EVERYTHING. Just be the person you want to be. Be the person you want your children to be. They'll pick up on that. Initially, they'll emulate you and eventually they'll make their own choices based on the values (for better or worse) that you've taught/shown them.

i'll just say this as a transgender I put off my happiness till i was 23 years old out of fear of being ridiculiuled and alienating my family. Had people been open and from the beginning i would of been a young woman at some point in my teens where the results would of been better and cost less to achieve. Now at 4 years old do i think you can know for sure probably not but why not let the child explore it and figure it out on thier own. Being a child is about exploring the world and learning about who and what you are. Playing is exactly that exploring and figuring things out. If Johnny thinks he is a girl let him be a girl. If things aren't working out right in her current school send him to another school that will accept him as a girl! Living as a girl for awhile he will know if he is a girl or not.
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Old 12-17-2006, 11:01 AM   #14
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CJ- I'm trying to say that at that age, pretty much everything has some permanent effect on kids' psyches (sp?) Being ridiculed for wearing plaid shorts means the same as being ridiculed for wearing a skirt to a kindergartner. It's also better IMO to know what you did to get ridiculed, instead of a whole lot of people I know today who are still wondering why they were made fun of in high school. My point was pretty much that while in theory I agree with you that we should be able to prevent teasing and really hurtful episodes in schools, I don't think that's possible. i seriously don't know anyone who says they didn't have a really emotionally scarring experience in high school. I just don't. And maybe if they see transgender students in kindergarten, it won't be any big deal when they grow up. That would be nice.

I know tone doesn't come across very well here, but I'm not trying to start a fight!
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Old 12-17-2006, 01:19 PM   #15
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Gosh, I hope you all don't think I was trying to pick a fight. The truth is, I've been a little starved for adult conversation lately, and maybe I got a little carried away.

I honestly don't know the answer. I'd love to change the world. I wish people could be trusted to treat each other with love and respect all the time. But I'm afraid that may never happen. And if you really want to get into my psyche, I've spent my life hiding the real me, so that's all I know and that's what I fall back on as a defense mechanism. I hope my opinions aren't really all about protecting myself from ridicule or hurt.

I think we all agree that we should be honest and open with our children, and teach them the things that will help them become good people. If my child wants to know why little Johnny wears a dress to school, then I'll explain what I know and teach them how important it is to love and accept people for who they are. If my child has problems about his or her gender, then we'll talk about it and I'll do my best to provide all the support I can to guide them to their own decision... and I hope I will support that decision, regardless of whether I agree with it. I guess there's a thin line there somewhere between making decisions to protect a child's safey and security, and repressing a child's personality and growth. I can only hope to make the right decisions, as I'm still working on my own personality and growth.
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Old 12-17-2006, 01:46 PM   #16
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the times of hiding are in the past if the last century has taught us anything is that you have to fight for your rights. Being a woman isn't a second class citizen thing anymore though some will argue they still aren't equal. Being black isn't a second class citizen either anymore thought they still aren't equal either, but thats changing and changing fast because as the people in power that hold those beliefs still die off more open minded people will fill those positions. Being gay lesbian and bi-sexual isn't as stigmatized as it was 20 years ago and as more people are being open about it the children are going up to accept it as just a fact of life and not something to fear. The next step is we have to get the trans out in force and show that we aren't something to fear or hate that we are just humans out trying to live our lives as happy people and unfortunately for us involves altering our bodies to match our mental and emotional states. So if Johnny at age 5 wants to wear a dress and live as a girl let him/her figure it out on there own. repressing the feelings and wants at a young age like i did leads to alot of self hate at times and like Johnny A here on the site can lead to self destructive behaviour. Yes ridicule sucks but if he lives his life as a girl at another school as long as he doesn't tell people and the teachers treat him like a girl the other kids would never know. Then and only then he could tell if the girls life is what he wants to live or not.
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Old 12-17-2006, 02:21 PM   #17
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But isn't that still hiding? Ultimately, we want to send our children to school and have them accepted as people, regardless of whether they're boy, girl, neither or both. I'd like it to not matter what clothing we wear. I think that's a big part of the confusion... the identification of male/female is greatly expressed through clothing (and accessories, of course). Men wear pants and act manly. Women wear dresses and act girly. And if you blur those lines, then you're butch or sissy. Too bad we can't just smear the whole canvas so it doesn't matter any more.
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Old 12-17-2006, 02:46 PM   #18
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it is hiding in a way but its probably the best way for the child to not be ridiculied and figure it out on thier own. in the end its whats best for the individual child until the barriers of male and female are broken down to we are just humans.
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Old 12-17-2006, 07:44 PM   #19
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I understand... hiding from others, but not from oneself. I can live with that. I do it all the time.

But if a secret like that is ever discovered... that could be a very bad thing. There might be some very strong feelings of betrayal from friends (or friends' parents, most likely). I'm not sure if it's practical, keeping that hidden from schoolmates, the school nurse, teachers, friends, neighbors, etc. It's a bold move, for sure. But now you have to make the child understand why it's okay to lie, why they aren't good enough to be honest, why they don't have to feel guilty every time you have to move to a new neighborhood, etc. Sounds complicated.

I'd still like to wait for puberty before the child is put into that situation. Once the child begins developing into maturity, maybe the simple answer is to just put it out there and wait for people to finally accept it. Acceptance surely won't happen any other way.
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Old 12-17-2006, 08:08 PM   #20
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CJ- I didn't think you were at all. I just wasn't sure if I came off as overzealous (i probably am ) and I didn't want to sound like I was attacking you, since you don't have any tone or facial expressions to go on.

Are we running the risk of eliminating all useful categories though? I mean, while I am all for acceptance of whatever noncoercive sexual behavior people choose to engage in, (or identity), I am pretty against extremist forms of Politically Correct Speech.
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Old 12-17-2006, 09:30 PM   #21
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the school personell should be fully aware of the child. As well as any friends parents the children themselves shouldn't be made aware until they have accepted the child as its chosen gender once that occurs then if they feel its right let them know. I've been treated exactly the same by people online once i reveal what i am its the changing what you are that gets people to treat you wrong. Waiting till puberty starts can be very traumatic on the child if handled wrongly imagine as i went through the feelings that your a woman but your muscles get bigger your voice deepens body hair begins to grow and turn black facial hair grows out of control and before i'm even 21 male pattern baldness. Now look back and tell me why i was never happy or accepting of my maleness not to mention the excess testerone making me ultra agressive and angry all the time when its the last thing i wanted. I just wanted to be a quiet proper young lady.
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Old 12-24-2006, 12:13 AM   #22
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The very fact that people are trying to treat issues like this in a positive way restores at least some of my faith in humanity.
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Old 05-26-2017, 09:09 PM   #23
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Come on people, these are children. Let them grow up and make their decisions when they reach an age for such things. Forcing "gender alteration" on them at an early age is child abuse by perverts. It's bad enough that the schools don't teach them how to sign their names any more or read or do math with out being "comfortable" and teaching lies instead of history. Now we have to have "gender" for the kindergarten. Somebody stop the fools on the left before we end up back in the dark ages.
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urguyscott View Post
Come on people, these are children. Let them grow up and make their decisions when they reach an age for such things. Forcing "gender alteration" on them at an early age is child abuse by perverts. It's bad enough that the schools don't teach them how to sign their names any more or read or do math with out being "comfortable" and teaching lies instead of history. Now we have to have "gender" for the kindergarten. Somebody stop the fools on the left before we end up back in the dark ages.
The thread you're replying to is ten years old, dumbass.
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:48 AM   #25
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I don't mind gays, and gay children too.
I don't think that they should suffer for their sexual tastes.

However what I do mind is glorifying gay relationships - and this is exactly the form that is often takes. For some people who exercise in gender tolerance, Gays are not only okay - they are good, great, they should be supported and encouraged.

What I find wrong is when some people start thinking that glorifying homosexuality is good, but glorifying heterosexuality is bad, because somehow it means infringing gay tastes.

Just my two thoughts about it. Gender variant toleration is good... as long as it doesn't turn into advertisment of gay relationships as something better than heterosexual ones - and I saw such things happen.

Also my other concern is that children are very susceptible to influences. What I mean to say is that some children may "want to be" gay because a cool kid in their class is gay and teachers flock around him for being a special snowflake.
This is what I worry about.

For myself, I can't care less if 80% of humanity turn gay. What I'm edgy about is my children falling under the wrong influences and making poor-ass decisions not based on teir real orientation, but based on this mushy stuff that kids have in their heads instead of logic and thoughtfulness.
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