incest in real life

Looking for stats or scholarly articles on how well incest can 'work' between adult couples - mom/son/daughter, dad/son/daughter, son/daughter. The real hard data.

I know that having children is a big No due to recessive gene reinforcement.

But I'm more interested in how the social dynamics might work. Can a relationship actually flower and live, or is it always doomed to horrible, damaging failure?

Interested in hard facts, not theories and suppositions.

Anybody got anything? Links?

Well here are some examples that came up in Google: http://www.weirdworm.com/six-incestuous-couples/ I'd suggest you try researching it on your own. I doubt you're going to find many experts on incest couples here.

I have no data here, but I suspect that in societies where close incest (1st-degree: siblings, parent-child; 2nd degree: half-sibs, grandparents/kids, aunt-uncle-niece-nephew) is most taboo, few people will volunteer info, so any supposed data is questionable. And too much inter-generational real incest (parent, aunt-uncle or grandparent) has a taint of coercion -- is data there trustworthy?

I further suspect that in societies where 3rd-degree incest (1st cousins) is common or unremarkable, statistical outcomes would be similar to non-kin marriages -- but data *should* be available here. It's worth looking at.

thanks

I appreciate the efforts you've put forth on my behalf.

I did a little searching around on laws against incestuous relationships... and the penalties can be extremely severe. Even ignoring the middle east countries, places like Canada, Germany, and the US will send you to jail for like 15 years. It's nuts.

There are a few places where incest between consenting adults is legal (Spain, Netherlands) where it is technically illegal but permitted (France) and where it is definitely illegal but not actively prosecuted (Rhode Island, New Jersey).

In Canada it's a (maximum) 14 year thump, along with a lifetime sex offender label. No exceptions, no safe havens. (Attention, Toronto incest practitioners: move to New Jersey.)

This strikes me a bit like being gay in Britain beck in the 1950's. It was a criminal act punishable by Jail time; so the gay community learned to be extremely discreet in their actions. I suspect a similar process is going on between incestuous couples. If you're in an incestuous relationship, fear of jail time - far much more jail time than gays ever faced - forces you to be extremely quiet about it.

There's probably a ton of happy incestuous relationships going on around us right now, but the laws prevent their very existence from being disclosed.

Bizarre. Lots of countries, having sex with a 14 year old girl is cool. But do it with your 25 year old sister? Man, you are so hooped.

MC

Seems to work well enough in Germany that they are pushing to make it legal.

I also discovered through an article circulating on the net that incest is not illegal in NJ

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/27877314/reportwoman-plans

As for the children of those couples if you research it there are studies saying that there is not much of a chance of issues with the child from a blood related couple.

However if it perpetuates as in the son/daughter of a brother sister hook up and have a baby...then each generation would have a heavily increased chance of birth defects

Its a tough subject to research because the couple has to come forward and say they are siblings(the most common) and why would they? So my feeling is there are a lot of these couples out there who have moved away from home and living as couples.

I think its worth noting that although incest is illegal in the US(except in NJ ....) its rarely prosecuted. IN adult consensual couples who is there to press charges and if some nosy relative reports it, the courts are not really going to waste time on it, it falls under -and I am loosely translating-what happens in your home stays in your home

Now in the case of what a lot of r/l incest really is which is father's molesting their daughters(#1 by a long shot) the charge there is never incest. Its statutory rape. Child abuse, sexual abuse.....incest never factors in for legal charges.

That's why the 'literotica style" incest and other sites don't really resemble real life incest at all. The 18+ rule keeps it from being sexual abuse and if you want to get a story fried, put non consent in an incest story, they don't like it because of the way people perceive the kink. SO here its consensual adult fantasy.

Mister_Chris said:

I appreciate the efforts you've put forth on my behalf.

I did a little searching around on laws against incestuous relationships... and the penalties can be extremely severe. Even ignoring the middle east countries, places like Canada, Germany, and the US will send you to jail for like 15 years. It's nuts.

There are a few places where incest between consenting adults is legal (Spain, Netherlands) where it is technically illegal but permitted (France) and where it is definitely illegal but not actively prosecuted (Rhode Island, New Jersey).

In Canada it's a (maximum) 14 year thump, along with a lifetime sex offender label. No exceptions, no safe havens. (Attention, Toronto incest practitioners: move to New Jersey.)

This strikes me a bit like being gay in Britain beck in the 1950's. It was a criminal act punishable by Jail time; so the gay community learned to be extremely discreet in their actions. I suspect a similar process is going on between incestuous couples. If you're in an incestuous relationship, fear of jail time - far much more jail time than gays ever faced - forces you to be extremely quiet about it.

There's probably a ton of happy incestuous relationships going on around us right now, but the laws prevent their very existence from being disclosed.

Bizarre. Lots of countries, having sex with a 14 year old girl is cool. But do it with your 25 year old sister? Man, you are so hooped.

MC

Click to expand...

I'll go you one better....for the enjoyment of my personal trolls and a nice shot at certain people here.

Have sex with your 25 year old sister consensually and its a crime and you're black balled for life.

Beat or rape a woman? She asked for it and you're a fucking hero, just ask anyone here on literotica or the NFL

I'll add that incest is legal in some places and incest can be had consensually its not always rape and when it does happen non consensually as I mentioned the legal charges are rape.

Rape is always a crime, everywhere.

That's tossed in for the pigs who claim the non consent and incest stories here fall under "equal ground" for judgement

Bullshit the rape stories here actually exaggerate and glorify the real life crime.

An entire category who thinks sexual slavery and sexual trafficking is hot and sexy who think women being beaten and tortured and begging for mercy is a turn on and oh so fucking funny.

But a 20 year old son with his mother? Oh, burn those sick authors!

The real sick depraved disgusting violent pieces of shit are in.....Loving wives they make Non con look like a woman's rights group.

And that is what the site loves here burn the bitch violence against women....they encourage it, they promote it, they glorify it...

But don't let a 19 year old brother/sister make out.

Only on these sites is rape funny and people squick about other shit.

The people who that rant was dedicated to know who they are.

I'll end it with I'm popping my popcorn as we speak because things maybe be changing and soon.

Love crafts sig line

LC. The king is not weak, merely limited in scope. His strength is frequently decisive in endgames.

You could always visit (pick a southern state) to gather your own data.

Old joke:

If a man and woman get married in Tennessee, then move to Alabama and get divorced years later, are they still brother and sister?

MatthewVett said:

Well here are some examples that came up in Google: http://www.weirdworm.com/six-incestuous-couples/ I'd suggest you try researching it on your own. I doubt you're going to find many experts on incest couples here.

Click to expand...

Most of the couples in the article met as adults. And incest messed up Phillips pretty bad if I recall correctly.

I do know of a brother and sister who grew up together in an environment of abuse and neglect who sought physical comfort in each other and it worked as a survival skill. They were totally ok with it.

ishtat said:

LC. The king is not weak, merely limited in scope. His strength is frequently decisive in endgames.

Click to expand...

Really? Then why is it once the Queen falls the king is usually lost? Just asking as I'm not more than an average chess player.

The King is not a powerful piece on the board, he is what he is in life a figurehead that everyone else dies to protect.

Women are the stronger sex in all ways except sheer physical strength

If you need a real example and are willing to look at it unbiasedly....look at sickness and death....who are the caretakers, who in the families make the arrangements and are at the bedside, graveside?

men don't do that, men sit back and let the women do it because "they can't deal with emotions"

Men think strength is only weighed in the physical and its not.

That's why men have subjugated women from the start of time fear and jealousy.

Here's my favorite.

Adam and Eve.

Okay so God (yeah, sure, God) tells Adam and eve, hey don't eat the apple. So eve listens to this snake and takes the apple to Adam

Now...she does not shove it in his mouth or pin him down and make him eat it, she does not slip it in with a banana she says eat it and he does.

Now all hell breaks loose and...its women blamed for sin, not man

Adam is the first example of a weak willed spineless male blaming women for everything that's wrong

How's that? Better than a chess analogy?

Now do me a favor and go stroke your penis, you know that thing you think with? Then go read some LW stories where the "real men" show the women how it should be.

I'm a male feminist wallowing here in a pig sty of misogyny and I love it.

Threadjack!

lovecraft68 said:

Here's my favorite.

Adam and Eve.

Okay so God (yeah, sure, God) tells Adam and eve, hey don't eat the apple. So eve listens to this snake and takes the apple to Adam

Now...she does not shove it in his mouth or pin him down and make him eat it, she does not slip it in with a banana she says eat it and he does.

Now all hell breaks loose and...its women blamed for sin, not man

Click to expand...

That's how it's spun, not how it's written. Consider: In the tale, every entity A&E encountered in the Garden were creatures (creations) of {JHWH}, whose divine presence was reportedly too awful (awesome) for the mere humans to endure raw. {JHWH} communicated via messengers (angels). Any talking critters spoke with {JHWH}'s voice because there's, like, nobody else around.

Enter the Serpent. (The original old Hebrew word implied reptile, not snake, so said Serpent could have been a talking iguana. Or mariguana. Or crocodile. But I digress.) The Serpent, yet another of {JHWH}'s creations, told Eve it's OK to eat the fruit. For all Eve knew, THIS WAS AN OFFICIAL RULE CHANGE FROM ON HIGH, yet another message from yet another divine messenger.

What is revealed? {JHWH} is a trickster. {JHWH} purposely setup A&E to break a rule. How is it spun? It's Eve's fault for not seeing the trick.

Similar spin: In the NT it's obviously Romans who executed Yeshua, yet millennia of spin blamed Jews, with genocidal result. I hate fucking Xian spins.

ObTopic: Since Eve was cultured from Adam's rib (and 'rib' was a euphemism for a different chunk of male anatomy) then they're clones and their coupling was divinely-ordained close incest. See? Incest is OK with {JHWH}. Sez so right there in The Book.

"Adam is the first example of a weak willed spineless male blaming women for everything that's wrong."

Propaganda. Who did the first blaming? Eve. This is a depiction of human nature.

Forget the law aspect, try reading some medical and psychological journals...

The psychological effects of incest has every bit, and in a lot of cases, has a worse effect on the victim than rape!

Rape is about power, so is incest, but in the case of the victim, it's worse than being dehumanized, it's also being betrayed in the process. Family members are supposed to support and care for one another. Even if the incest is done as a seduction, to the victim, it is psychologically the betrayal of someone who was supposed to protect that person, not take advantage of his/her authority. Just as in rape, the victim feels helpless.

Now, fantasy is fantasy. Does it hurt anyone to read a fantasy about incest? Of course not. But don't try to justify it so you can feel better about reading it. If you want to know the truth, as I said, there are hundreds of studies from psychiatric experts and accounts from victims themselves. Victims of incest have psychological problems for the rest of their lives.

One suggestion though, if you want to go on reading stories in this genre, don't read the psychiatric studies. You'll no longer be able to enjoy the fantasy, guaranteed.

laptopwriter said:

The psychological effects of incest has every bit, and in a lot of cases, has a worse effect on the victim than rape!

Rape is about power, so is incest, but in the case of the victim, it's worse than being dehumanized, it's also being betrayed in the process. Family members are supposed to support and care for one another. Even if the incest is done as a seduction, to the victim, it is psychologically the betrayal of someone who was supposed to protect that person, not take advantage of his/her authority. Just as in rape, the victim feels helpless.

Now, fantasy is fantasy. Does it hurt anyone to read a fantasy about incest? Of course not. But don't try to justify it so you can feel better about reading it. If you want to know the truth, as I said, there are hundreds of studies from psychiatric experts and accounts from victims themselves. Victims of incest have psychological problems for the rest of their lives.

One suggestion though, if you want to go on reading stories in this genre, don't read the psychiatric studies. You'll no longer be able to enjoy the fantasy, guaranteed.

Click to expand...

Well.

I guess I should thank you, Rush Limbaugh, for bringing the discussion back from the bible and chess... and onto incest.

The psychiatric studies are all based on people who visited a psychiatrist. Ergo, they are troubled people. Are they troubled exclusively because of an incestuous relationship? Possibly, but likely not. People can become troubled through many routes.

I suspect that you are not differentiating between consensual sex between adults, and manipulative sex between children and caregivers.

If the child is dependent on the other person in the sexual relationship, I feel that is criminal and deserving of a lengthy sentence.

But if adult, independent family members choose, of their own free will, to live together and have sex with each other... I do not feel that they should be punished with a multi-year prison sentence and a lifetime sex offender label.

And that is currently the case.

Because admitting an incestuous relationship can land both participants in such a great deal of trouble, there is a strong incentive to keep your head down and just claim a platonic relationship.

For this reason, we never hear about the 'happy' incestuous couples, just as we didn't hear about the happy gay couples in Britain in 1950. They no doubt existed; but because being gay was a criminal offense, they kept quiet.

I suspect that there is a large percentage of happy, well adjusted people who have either had an incestuous fling, or are currently in an incestuous relationship. But with the laws as horrific as they are, we'll never know; because these people keep their heads down and their mouths shut.

Incest isn't automatically, universally damaging.

I don't see the big deal about it, if it's two grown ass people doing it. I can see the pandoras box, but I still don't see the big deal, and it could be point/counterpoint all day to a stalemate, since most would be opinion alone anyway.

JLCC said:

"Adam is the first example of a weak willed spineless male blaming women for everything that's wrong."

Propaganda. Who did the first blaming? Eve. This is a depiction of human nature.

Click to expand...

Huh? Adam blames Eve first. It's right there in Genesis 3:8-13.

Mister_Chris said:

The psychiatric studies are all based on people who visited a psychiatrist.

Click to expand...

Yep. We don't observe happy and healthy incestuous couples, but then even if they existed, there's precious little reason why we would. This applies on the medical-genetic side as well as the psychological side: first-degree relatives have a high rate of serious congenital defects etc (around 30%, IIRC) but some of these cases might only have been discovered because of those defects.

I suspect that there is a large percentage of happy, well adjusted people who have either had an incestuous fling, or are currently in an incestuous relationship. But with the laws as horrific as they are, we'll never know; because these people keep their heads down and their mouths shut.

Click to expand...

Noting that sex between adult siblings is 100% legal in some (all?) Australian states, but I've never heard of anybody who was willing to admit to it in public. So if there are lots of happy sibling-sibling couples out there, it's not just the law that's keeping them out of sight. (Social pressure, OTOH, might do it)

I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few siblings out there who've experimented with one another consensually, without either party being traumatised by it. Not my thing, but not something that particularly bothers me. Yes there's a genetic risk if they conceive, but forbidding sex on that basis would set an awful precedent for people with BRCA1 mutations etc etc - I have relatives whose chance of passing on a lethal mutation is probably higher than a typical brother-sister couple.

Parent-child, OTOH... even when they're both over legal age, I would have a lot of difficulty accepting that sort of relationship. Too much of a power imbalance to satisfy my ideas of consent.

I do stand corrected on that order of events in Genesis.

===============================================

Noting that sex between adult siblings is 100% legal in some (all?) Australian states, but I've never heard of anybody who was willing to admit to it in public. So if there are lots of happy sibling-sibling couples out there, it's not just the law that's keeping them out of sight. (Social pressure, OTOH, might do it)

================================================

"In no Australian state or territory is consent a defense to incest. The maximum penalty for incest varies: eight years imprisonment in New South Wales; 10 years imprisonment in South Australia; 20 years imprisonment in Western Australia and the Australian Capital Territory; 25 years imprisonment in the Northern Territory, Victoria and Tasmania; and life imprisonment in Queensland. After one conviction for incest, the offender's name is placed on the Sex Offenders Register for 15 years, while any offender with two or more convictions for incest has their name placed on the Register for the remainder of their life."

Source is wikipedia, that font of 100% accuracy. I jest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest#Australia

But the same article states that

"In Australia, under federal law, sexual conduct between consenting adults (18 years of age or older) is legal, and state incest laws are subject to the overriding federal law." The Federal law was enacted in 1994.

So the federal law says you can, the state/territory laws say you can't, the federal law prevails... and if I were in an incestuous relationship, I'd sure as hell keep my head down. Talk about a firestorm.

A google search of 'incest prevalence australia' turns up many articles... every single one of which refers to parent-child molestation under the age of consent. There appears to be a bias in both the public and scientific view that incest is equivalent to child molestation.

I was not able to find any stats or articles regarding incest between adult couples who choose the lifestyle of their own free will.

Adult incest - 2 way street

This is an interesting article from Salon.com regarding adult incest:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/12/is_incest_a_twoway_street.html

It discusses (among others) the case of David Epstein, a 46 year old professor of political science at Columbia University, who was charged with entering into a consensual incestuous relationship with his 24 year old daughter.

The article discusses the 'power balance' being destroyed by an incestuous relationship; the concept (apparently) is that, even though legally an adult, the child can still be controlled by the parent. This strikes me as a theory unsupported by facts, but I may be wrong.

Although not discussed in the article, further research indicated that the University bought out his contract and dismissed him, his wife divorced him, he (and his daughter) received a staggering amount of negative international publicity... and the case was withdrawn after his daughter refused to testify against him in court.

This is a pretty good example of two adults who entered into a consensual sexual relationship, were discovered, and endured severe societal repercussions... despite the fact that both parties desired the relationship.

Memo to the incestuous Literoticans: keep your head down.

Mister_Chris said:

===============================================

Noting that sex between adult siblings is 100% legal in some (all?) Australian states, but I've never heard of anybody who was willing to admit to it in public. So if there are lots of happy sibling-sibling couples out there, it's not just the law that's keeping them out of sight. (Social pressure, OTOH, might do it)

================================================

"In no Australian state or territory is consent a defense to incest. The maximum penalty for incest varies: eight years imprisonment in New South Wales; 10 years imprisonment in South Australia; 20 years imprisonment in Western Australia and the Australian Capital Territory; 25 years imprisonment in the Northern Territory, Victoria and Tasmania; and life imprisonment in Queensland. After one conviction for incest, the offender's name is placed on the Sex Offenders Register for 15 years, while any offender with two or more convictions for incest has their name placed on the Register for the remainder of their life."

Source is wikipedia, that font of 100% accuracy. I jest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest#Australia

But the same article states that

"In Australia, under federal law, sexual conduct between consenting adults (18 years of age or older) is legal, and state incest laws are subject to the overriding federal law." The Federal law was enacted in 1994.

So the federal law says you can, the state/territory laws say you can't, the federal law prevails... and if I were in an incestuous relationship, I'd sure as hell keep my head down. Talk about a firestorm.

A google search of 'incest prevalence australia' turns up many articles... every single one of which refers to parent-child molestation under the age of consent. There appears to be a bias in both the public and scientific view that incest is equivalent to child molestation.

I was not able to find any stats or articles regarding incest between adult couples who choose the lifestyle of their own free will.

Click to expand...

Note that as per that article, brother/sister doesn't meet the state/territory definitions of "incest", except in NSW. Elsewhere, the offence only covers direct descendants/ancestors.

As for parent/child: bias, or accurate representation of reality?

Yep, good question. I've always sorta lumped sibling and parent/child incest all into the same bag... but maybe there are distinctions that should be made.

I've kinda given up researching the topic; it appears that everything written on incest makes the baseline assumption that it's always molestation by a parent of a (very) underage child. This is a topic which has little or no hard science, and a huge quantity of highly charged emotion. Incestophobia today seems to be as rampant as homophobia was 50 years ago.

I did find it interesting that the guy is usually seen by the court as the perpetrator and the girl the victim, independent of any facts that would support such a belief. That would be a great way for a mean girl to exact revenge or extort blackmail from her father. Seduce him, get pictures... gaah. What a dark turn for an incest story.

And while researching this, I did learn that everyone with blue eyes is descended from some individual person who lived between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago. Trivial and irrelevant, but interesting nonetheless. Not that long ago, some blue eyed fucker was very, very busy.

I wonder what Jesus would have said about incest? Given that the Roman Priests were real big on incest to preserve the bloodline, and all that.

For God so loved the world...

Mister_Chris said:

I did find it interesting that the guy is usually seen by the court as the perpetrator and the girl the victim, independent of any facts that would support such a belief.

Click to expand...

Are you talking about parent/child or brother/sister there?

If a father willingly has sex with his under-age daughter, then in my book he's a perpetrator, and I don't care if "she started it". (And likewise if a mother has sex with her son, she's a perp.) No matter how much "seduction" is going on, the parent still has the obligation to say "no". Even when they're both adults, there's usually a big power imbalance there.

That would be a great way for a mean girl to exact revenge or extort blackmail from her father. Seduce him, get pictures... gaah. What a dark turn for an incest story.

Click to expand...

My sympathy for him would be... about the same as what I feel for the people who fall for a "help me rip off somebody else's bank account" scam and get taken themselves.

And while researching this, I did learn that everyone with blue eyes is descended from some individual person who lived between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago. Trivial and irrelevant, but interesting nonetheless. Not that long ago, some blue eyed fucker was very, very busy.

Click to expand...

Blue eyes go back at least 7000 years.

I wonder what Jesus would have said about incest? Given that the Roman Priests were real big on incest to preserve the bloodline, and all that.

Click to expand...

I met one creationist who earnestly explained to me that the reason people don't live as long now as they used to in the Bible (950 years for Noah, 600 for Shem, etc etc) was because of inbreeding. I'm not entirely convinced.

Mister_Chris said:

Looking for stats or scholarly articles on how well incest can 'work' between adult couples - mom/son/daughter, dad/son/daughter, son/daughter. The real hard data.

I know that having children is a big No due to recessive gene reinforcement.

But I'm more interested in how the social dynamics might work. Can a relationship actually flower and live, or is it always doomed to horrible, damaging failure?

Interested in hard facts, not theories and suppositions.

Anybody got anything? Links?

Click to expand...

Well, according to legend, it was a real disaster for Oedipus, I gather.

It is worth remembering that prior to the de-institutionalisation of mental asylums in the 60's and 70's it was much more likely people suspected of offences like incest or even pedophelia to be sectioned under the mental health legislation. It was an administrative procedure and avoided the embarrassment for the families of both victims and perpetrators. It was also cheaper than a criminal trial.

Sectioning as insane was common practice in most English speaking countries. I worked a vacation job as a student many years ago in a mental home and one of the inmates ( of over 30 years) had allegedly committed incest with her brother. She was of low intelligence but it was accepted by the professional staff that she was perfectly sane. Her family had committed her to save their family's reputation.

After 30 years she never had a visitor and was completely institutionalised.