Requesting feedback on "Seeing"

dzchoquet

Virgin
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May 17, 2018
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I received some great feedback on my previous story (The Visit) in this forum and tried to keep some of those suggestions in mind with my next one (Seeing). https://www.literotica.com/s/seeing-3 13k views, 110 ratings but no comments (so far). So once again, I'd appreciate your feedback.
 
Daniel,

You're still "telling" me things. You start with a tiny snippet of dialogue, but you immediately break from the present by telling me something by back-fill. Don't tell me, keep me in the here and now, reveal something to me through the conversation. Make me wonder what's going on.

You get to the third long expository paragraph, and you tell me exactly what's going to happen in this story. At this point,why would I bother reading any further? You've just revealed everything. No more tension, no more wondering what the outcome is going to be. Oh, she's going to cheat on him, but I already know that because you've explained it all to me from the previous two expository paragraphs.

See what I'm saying here? Don't tell me what's going to happen through back-story or telling me. Write a scene that makes me identify with your characters but reveals there's something else going on, makes me wonder if she's playing away. Give me personalities, emotion, motive. Give me a bit of intrigue to think about.

Show, don't tell.
 
Daniel,

You're still "telling" me things. You start with a tiny snippet of dialogue, but you immediately break from the present by telling me something by back-fill. Don't tell me, keep me in the here and now, reveal something to me through the conversation. Make me wonder what's going on.

You get to the third long expository paragraph, and you tell me exactly what's going to happen in this story. At this point,why would I bother reading any further? You've just revealed everything. No more tension, no more wondering what the outcome is going to be. Oh, she's going to cheat on him, but I already know that because you've explained it all to me from the previous two expository paragraphs.

See what I'm saying here? Don't tell me what's going to happen through back-story or telling me. Write a scene that makes me identify with your characters but reveals there's something else going on, makes me wonder if she's playing away. Give me personalities, emotion, motive. Give me a bit of intrigue to think about.

Show, don't tell.


I am inclined to agree with you.
 
The story probably belongs in "Loving Wives" instead of "Group Sex".

As for the paragraphs at the beginning, I get that they are explaining why Daniel would be okay with Becka bringing home Joel. I don't understand the explanation as I can't possibly imagine wanting my wife/so to cheat on me, but that's okay as fantasies don't have to appeal to everyone.
 
The story probably belongs in "Loving Wives" instead of "Group Sex".

As for the paragraphs at the beginning, I get that they are explaining why Daniel would be okay with Becka bringing home Joel. I don't understand the explanation as I can't possibly imagine wanting my wife/so to cheat on me, but that's okay as fantasies don't have to appeal to everyone.

Wow. One of the main reasons for the initial paragraphs was to make it clear that this was NOT really a cheating situation. She was pretending to cheat, yes, she wanted to experience the forbidden, and Joel had been led to believe, initially, that she was cheating. But Daniel had already expressed his approval and all was revealed the next morning. I actually have almost a zero tolerance myself of stories with actual cheating. I have experienced cheating and it isn't fun, isn't sexy. Just painful. And I'm not one for whom pain is erotic. I have struggled with the question of why in hotwife erotica, the "other guy" is often led to believe that she is cheating. Like Daniel here, I always want him to know that the husband approves. This story was an attempt to explore one possible motivation the wife might have for pretending to cheat.

As for the category comment, that's interesting, since I recently posted in Author's Hangout about how I was frustrated that there was no appropriate category for hotwife stories. Other folks there mentioned Loving Wives, but said that lots of folks there would want the wife to be punished. That's the very antithesis of hotwife erotica, imo.
 
Wow. One of the main reasons for the initial paragraphs was to make it clear that this was NOT really a cheating situation. She was pretending to cheat, yes, she wanted to experience the forbidden, and Joel had been led to believe, initially, that she was cheating. But Daniel had already expressed his approval and all was revealed the next morning. I actually have almost a zero tolerance myself of stories with actual cheating. I have experienced cheating and it isn't fun, isn't sexy. Just painful. And I'm not one for whom pain is erotic. I have struggled with the question of why in hotwife erotica, the "other guy" is often led to believe that she is cheating. Like Daniel here, I always want him to know that the husband approves. This story was an attempt to explore one possible motivation the wife might have for pretending to cheat.
To me, Daniel's approval doesn't change the basic terminology. I don't know of any term for a wife having sex with a man other than her husband with her husband's approval.

As for the category comment, that's interesting, since I recently posted in Author's Hangout about how I was frustrated that there was no appropriate category for hotwife stories. Other folks there mentioned Loving Wives, but said that lots of folks there would want the wife to be punished. That's the very antithesis of hotwife erotica, imo.
You've gotten a low rating and no comments in Group Sex. Anyone looking for a group (i.e. more than two) having sex will be disappointed by your story. You may get the same rating and some negative comments in Loving Wives, but at least you'll get comments.
 
Daniel,

You're still "telling" me things. You start with a tiny snippet of dialogue, but you immediately break from the present by telling me something by back-fill. Don't tell me, keep me in the here and now, reveal something to me through the conversation. Make me wonder what's going on.

You get to the third long expository paragraph, and you tell me exactly what's going to happen in this story. At this point,why would I bother reading any further? You've just revealed everything. No more tension, no more wondering what the outcome is going to be. Oh, she's going to cheat on him, but I already know that because you've explained it all to me from the previous two expository paragraphs.

See what I'm saying here? Don't tell me what's going to happen through back-story or telling me. Write a scene that makes me identify with your characters but reveals there's something else going on, makes me wonder if she's playing away. Give me personalities, emotion, motive. Give me a bit of intrigue to think about.

Show, don't tell.
Thank you for your feedback. I've tried to think of how I could do this story without the backstory stuff, but when I imagine doing it instead with dialogue, it just sounds "preachy" -- sounds like the character has been assigned to deliver the author's message. Instead, I'm going to take this as an exercise for my next story: No "telling" whatsoever. Everything will just unfold (with dialogue of course). I have the start of an idea for something I could do that way. We'll see. I'm embarrassed because I've heard the "show don't tell" admonition before.
 
To me, Daniel's approval doesn't change the basic terminology. I don't know of any term for a wife having sex with a man other than her husband with her husband's approval.
Some that come to mind: consensual nonmonogamy, open relationship, polyamory (although that implies there's more going on with the outside person than just sex). eb66 used the term "play away" which I'd never heard before, but which I kind of like. I also like "plays with others" partly because it's whimsical, not heavy. For me, to have "cheating" there must be some combination of lying, deceit, and betrayal. None of that in this story. But I was wrong to say that actual cheating is never fun. It is of course for the cheaters. But I always identify with the person being betrayed.

You've gotten a low rating and no comments in Group Sex. Anyone looking for a group (i.e. more than two) having sex will be disappointed by your story. You may get the same rating and some negative comments in Loving Wives, but at least you'll get comments.
You're really right that it was wrong to put Seeing in Group Sex since Daniel didn't participate, except verbally. I noticed something on this site where you can suggest a new category. I'll try suggesting "hotwife". People seem to be saying that Loving Wives is ill-defined and different people are interpreting it VERY differently. Meanwhile, I'll have to try using that category, prepared for negative reactions.
 
I noticed something on this site where you can suggest a new category. I'll try suggesting "hotwife". People seem to be saying that Loving Wives is ill-defined and different people are interpreting it VERY differently. Meanwhile, I'll have to try using that category, prepared for negative reactions.
Don't bother suggesting new categories. There's been a request for over a decade, apparently, to break out Bi from Gay Male. If that ain't happening, then subtleties within Loving Wives have a snowball's chance in Hell.
 
You're really right that it was wrong to put Seeing in Group Sex since Daniel didn't participate, except verbally. I noticed something on this site where you can suggest a new category. I'll try suggesting "hotwife". People seem to be saying that Loving Wives is ill-defined and different people are interpreting it VERY differently. Meanwhile, I'll have to try using that category, prepared for negative reactions.
To me, most Loving Wives stories are about a wife having sex with someone besides her husband. Your story very much fits that definition. Some people have suggested splitting Loving Wives so that stories where the wife has her husband's consent are separate from the stories where the wife doesn't, but LitE already has a huge number of categories so I don't see that happening.

Some that come to mind: consensual nonmonogamy, open relationship, polyamory (although that implies there's more going on with the outside person than just sex). eb66 used the term "play away" which I'd never heard before, but which I kind of like. I also like "plays with others" partly because it's whimsical, not heavy. For me, to have "cheating" there must be some combination of lying, deceit, and betrayal. None of that in this story. But I was wrong to say that actual cheating is never fun. It is of course for the cheaters. But I always identify with the person being betrayed.
"Open relationship" implies that the couple have agreed that both of them can have sex outside of marriage. A "play away" relationship to me means that the couple has agreed that when they are out of town, they can have sex outside of their marriage; but when they are home, they can't. In your story, the husband encourages the wife to make him a cuckold and she does so in front of him. My impression is that that's a fairly common type of story in Loving Wives. I would describe your story as a cuckold story as it's told from the point of view of the cuckold.
 
Thank you for your feedback. I've tried to think of how I could do this story without the backstory stuff, but when I imagine doing it instead with dialogue, it just sounds "preachy" -- sounds like the character has been assigned to deliver the author's message. Instead, I'm going to take this as an exercise for my next story: No "telling" whatsoever. Everything will just unfold (with dialogue of course). I have the start of an idea for something I could do that way. We'll see. I'm embarrassed because I've heard the "show don't tell" admonition before.
I don't suggest this at all. I prefer my erotic stories to be first-person (though I understand there are times when third-person is a better choice) and the narrator should guide us through the events that happen, providing interpretation and context. Now in your story, a small amount of dialogue at the beginning triggers a huge amount of commentary. I would say that's a problem. (Side note: I think the story would have been better if it had started with Joel arriving with Becka as that's when events start happening). After that, I think you do a good job of mixing commentary with events.
 
...In your story, the husband encourages the wife to make him a cuckold and she does so in front of him. My impression is that that's a fairly common type of story in Loving Wives. I would describe your story as a cuckold story as it's told from the point of view of the cuckold.
I have big problem with the word "cuckold" because it has several different, mutually incompatible meanings. The first meaning I ever heard was a husband whose wife is having sex with other men WITHOUT his consent or even knowledge. The second meaning is a husband whose wife is seeing others with his consent and blessing (I'm okay with that meaning). But the meaning that is often intended is a husband who is submissive, ridiculed, demeaned and degraded by his wife and/or her lover(s). Sometimes he even wears a chastity device, his wife holding the key. Sometimes the lover does not allow the wife to have sex with her husband. I find all this so offensive that I have sworn off using the term at all. Of course, there are men who enjoy this sort of treatment so that's fine for them. What I like is for the husband and the lover to be equals, maybe to establish a connection enabled by their common interest, the wife. Each fully respects the other. In my stories, this sometimes even begins to merge into polyamory, as is evident in the very end of Seeing.
 
Daniel,

You're still "telling" me things. You start with a tiny snippet of dialogue, but you immediately break from the present by telling me something by back-fill. Don't tell me, keep me in the here and now, reveal something to me through the conversation. Make me wonder what's going on.

You get to the third long expository paragraph, and you tell me exactly what's going to happen in this story. At this point,why would I bother reading any further? You've just revealed everything. No more tension, no more wondering what the outcome is going to be. Oh, she's going to cheat on him, but I already know that because you've explained it all to me from the previous two expository paragraphs.

See what I'm saying here? Don't tell me what's going to happen through back-story or telling me. Write a scene that makes me identify with your characters but reveals there's something else going on, makes me wonder if she's playing away. Give me personalities, emotion, motive. Give me a bit of intrigue to think about.

Show, don't tell.
I 100% agree with this feedback. If you think the backstory of them talking about sharing her is essential, why not continue the conversation and hint/reference to their previous conversations? If it was me writing it, I'd make it less apparent from the start what they all want and where the story is heading.
 
Thank you for your feedback. I've tried to think of how I could do this story without the backstory stuff, but when I imagine doing it instead with dialogue, it just sounds "preachy" -- sounds like the character has been assigned to deliver the author's message. Instead, I'm going to take this as an exercise for my next story: No "telling" whatsoever. Everything will just unfold (with dialogue of course). I have the start of an idea for something I could do that way. We'll see. I'm embarrassed because I've heard the "show don't tell" admonition before.

One of the problems with starting out with the backstory is that it isn't usually very interesting. If it were interesting it would be the story, not the backstory, right? I think that will be true whether you deliver it as dialogue or as narrative.

Your first-person narrator has a lot of opportunities to explain himself, so I don't see those first several paragraphs as adding much.
 
I want to thank all the people who took the time to critique my story. I value all of your comments and feel confident that consciously or unconsciously, they will influence my future writing. Whether or not I try to redo this particular story (still haven't ruled that out), I will try to keep your comments in mind.
 
Another try

I have revised this story based on some of the feedback I received here.
1. The long backstory session has been cut down and broken up. A couple of things that I'd covered there (the genesis of Daniel's love for Becka's freedom and his preference for outside playmates to know of his approval) have been removed.
2. Backstory elements that I feel are still essential have been rewritten to use fewer words and moved to later in the narrative, not introduced until needed. So Daniel is still "telling" us a few things, about what he's thinking about what's going on.
3. I also tried to address something in an anonymous comment, namely that I was giving away too much too early. Now Daniel has more uncertainty as to what is going on until Becka finally reveals it in a comment to Joel.
4. I added new material near the end so that this is now a legitimate "group sex" story.

So now, what to do with this new version? Should I try to make it as an edit to the existing story? The FAQ seems to say you can do that. Or should I publish it as a new story (e.g. "Seeing V2"), leaving the original out there?
 
I have revised this story based on some of the feedback I received here.
1. The long backstory session has been cut down and broken up. A couple of things that I'd covered there (the genesis of Daniel's love for Becka's freedom and his preference for outside playmates to know of his approval) have been removed.
2. Backstory elements that I feel are still essential have been rewritten to use fewer words and moved to later in the narrative, not introduced until needed. So Daniel is still "telling" us a few things, about what he's thinking about what's going on.
3. I also tried to address something in an anonymous comment, namely that I was giving away too much too early. Now Daniel has more uncertainty as to what is going on until Becka finally reveals it in a comment to Joel.
4. I added new material near the end so that this is now a legitimate "group sex" story.

So now, what to do with this new version? Should I try to make it as an edit to the existing story? The FAQ seems to say you can do that. Or should I publish it as a new story (e.g. "Seeing V2"), leaving the original out there?
If you replace the old story with the new, you will keep the scores, comments and rating of the original, but obviously, only new readers will see the changes (I doubt many of your original readers would ever come back and find out there's another version). To do this, submit the new text with EDIT in the title, also in the Notes to Editor box, noting you've made changes. It will take a week or longer to process, as edits are low priority.

If you put up another version as a new story, make sure you include a note right up front saying what you've done, to avoid a negative reaction from folk who realise they've read the bulk of it before.

I wouldn't do either, to be honest. I'd be focussing on the next story, not futzing with the last - you'll learn more from having a second and a third story, than having a perfect only story. But, as you appear to have made significant changes, hmmm - dunno.
 
I wouldn't do either, to be honest. I'd be focussing on the next story, not futzing with the last - you'll learn more from having a second and a third story, than having a perfect only story. But, as you appear to have made significant changes, hmmm - dunno.
I agree with this. Your not going to get a lot of reads/comments either way you republish the story. But given that you've done the work, I'd wait a bit, delete the story and then resubmit it with a note at the beginning that it's an improved version of your original story.
 
... I'd wait a bit, delete the story and then resubmit it with a note at the beginning that it's an improved version of your original story.
Thanks. That's an option I hadn't thought of (delete and resubmit). And I certainly agree that there should be a clear warning at the top that it's a reworked version of something published previously. Maybe also a "Rev 2" or something in the title? I do hope the new version is in fact an improvement.
 
Thanks. That's an option I hadn't thought of (delete and resubmit). And I certainly agree that there should be a clear warning at the top that it's a reworked version of something published previously. Maybe also a "Rev 2" or something in the title? I do hope the new version is in fact an improvement.
Yes, given you've already made the effort, I'd agree with 8letters. Delete the original story, submit the new one with a clear editorial note. You'll get a second chance on the category front page.

Put the lessons learned into the next story - your next story will always be "better" (whatever "better" means) than the last one.
 
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