keep the red flags flying!
- Thread starter Sweetdaisymae
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Bramblethorn
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Frankly, I'd be astonished if sound stats on this existed. Measuring incidence of abuse is already hard and trying to get unbiased data on a fuzzily-defined not-easily-identifiable subpopulation cranks up the difficulty to eleven. (Am I part of the "kink community"? I don't even know.)
I certainly don't dismiss the danger of abuse in kink - that whole "it couldn't happen here" thing never ends well, and better safe than sorry - but, yeah, not expecting to see solid evidence on it any time soon.
skinnysinner
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I have read the thread with huge interest, and a desire to learn more of both sides of this world. I have a limited experience of taking control, and having someone give that gift of control to me. My early attempts to express these desires I suspect had a few red flags in them as I sought the right way to express the need and control tgat turns me on and I hope does something for a willing sub.
Dom is an interesting word, and the continuum of control from rp with a SO to whips, chains and beyond is what makes this area a hugely complex web of give and take. A current sub and I have worked out the way in which my control of her and admonishment when needed gives her the freedom to submit and me the arousal of giving her pkeasure. To get to that stage takes time, and respect onboth sides. I know that my pleasure from the control of my sub is absolutely dependent on her wanting me to have that control. If I abuse it, her choice is to walk away, and indeed it is she who actually has the real control in many ways.
I remain a learner, and an online one at that. I seek new experiences and people, but am careful who I respond to too.
Good luck all, when it works its mind blowingly good fun, and I have never seen as big an orgasm as the one she had at the end of our last session! That is what pleased me most.
SS
Dom is an interesting word, and the continuum of control from rp with a SO to whips, chains and beyond is what makes this area a hugely complex web of give and take. A current sub and I have worked out the way in which my control of her and admonishment when needed gives her the freedom to submit and me the arousal of giving her pkeasure. To get to that stage takes time, and respect onboth sides. I know that my pleasure from the control of my sub is absolutely dependent on her wanting me to have that control. If I abuse it, her choice is to walk away, and indeed it is she who actually has the real control in many ways.
I remain a learner, and an online one at that. I seek new experiences and people, but am careful who I respond to too.
Good luck all, when it works its mind blowingly good fun, and I have never seen as big an orgasm as the one she had at the end of our last session! That is what pleased me most.
SS
Collar_N_Cuffs
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Skinnysinner brings up a great point. To a large degree, the sub is in charge. Boundaries, limits, hard stops etc. should be agreed upon, and the sub should have just as much say as their partner on these topics. If the Dom(me) doesn't seem interested in the sub's input at this basic level, red flag.
Of course, limits can be pushed, and that should be an enjoyable activity, or at least a learning exercise that is discussed at some point, with feedback taken into account for the future. If not, red flag...
As pointed out, a Dom(me) can screw up - either partner can, really - and that's also part of the growing process. Those things are going to happen, and how they respond to your signals or feedback in such a situation is critical. If your input is discounted, (you guessed it) red flag.
Even when a sub gives up control and doesn't know what they want, are willing to explore completely at the whim of the dominant partner, they need to be able to stop the activity and give feedback later.
So I would say any dominant who isn't interested in any of the planning, doesn't pay attention to signals during session, and doesn't want feedback later is waving the biggest red flag they could get their hands on...!
Of course, limits can be pushed, and that should be an enjoyable activity, or at least a learning exercise that is discussed at some point, with feedback taken into account for the future. If not, red flag...
As pointed out, a Dom(me) can screw up - either partner can, really - and that's also part of the growing process. Those things are going to happen, and how they respond to your signals or feedback in such a situation is critical. If your input is discounted, (you guessed it) red flag.
Even when a sub gives up control and doesn't know what they want, are willing to explore completely at the whim of the dominant partner, they need to be able to stop the activity and give feedback later.
So I would say any dominant who isn't interested in any of the planning, doesn't pay attention to signals during session, and doesn't want feedback later is waving the biggest red flag they could get their hands on...!
WhipLuvr
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A few of my red flags:
Insisting I call them Master/whathaveyou within the first few messages or communications
Demanding nature, insisting I send pics/videos/physical objects for their amusement
Any history of mental or emotional problems
Persistent messages without waiting for a reply
Disregards or belittles my personal choices, limits or senses of boundaries
Lack of basic cleanliness
Demanding a 24/7 servant to cook, clean and fuck
Insisting I call them Master/whathaveyou within the first few messages or communications
Demanding nature, insisting I send pics/videos/physical objects for their amusement
Any history of mental or emotional problems
Persistent messages without waiting for a reply
Disregards or belittles my personal choices, limits or senses of boundaries
Lack of basic cleanliness
Demanding a 24/7 servant to cook, clean and fuck
crazychemgirl
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agreed 100%
I emailed someone and within the first few emails was demanding that I never cut my hair because they didn't like short hair and so I didn't now too.. even after repeatedly telling them that I didn't like my hair long...
red flag
Sweetdaisymae
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WhipLuvr
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Ugh, that brings up another thing...
Insisting I permanently and dramatically change what I wear, my style of hair and makeup, footwear or personal tendencies to better conform with their "requirements" for a "good sub"
I wear what I wear because I like it. Its comfortable and practical. I'm not gonna do the grocery shopping in 6 inch heels any more than you are gonna wear a mankini to shovel the driveway in the middle of a snowstorm. Stop asking, its NOT gonna happen. Likewise, I will not wear latex or leather to work just so you can get hard thinking of me.
crazychemgirl
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YES exactly!!!!
there's reason I dress and style myself the way I do... I'm not changing who I am because of you.
CutieMouse
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But how one dresses, or willingness to change things like hair color/ length, or even someone who is looking for a partner willing to do domestic service + sex ARE NOT RED FLAGS.
They are simply small issues that show incompatibility. Instead of going OMG [blanket statement] ____ IS A RED FLAG, why can't it be a simple issue of two people looking for different things?
They are simply small issues that show incompatibility. Instead of going OMG [blanket statement] ____ IS A RED FLAG, why can't it be a simple issue of two people looking for different things?
crazychemgirl
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I think the issue comes from someone who demands these things before even getting to know the other person.
CutieMouse
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So Horny Net Geeks are Horny Net Geeks... and? It still doesn't mean any of the things mentioned (hair color/ cut, how one dresses, or service submission) = a red flag. Believe it or not, there are people out there who ID as submissive, who not only expect those things in a relationship, but thrive* in relationships with those sorts of boundaries in place.
*raises hand
NYTimesBest
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insane. sounds like a serial killer to me.
NYTimesBest
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don't think we'd get along lol for reference:
isn't that why people get wifes? (totally joking). but it sounds good
D
Daddy2mylilgirl
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Thank you!
That's exactly what I was thinking reading over some of these "red flags".
IrisAlthea
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This.
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier.
Now we are talking red flags warning that someone is annoying, in a 'new dom frenzy" or perhaps even just clear about what they are looking for.
Someone staring at that kind of flag might actually get a false sense of safety.
Yes, look for signs that someone is not what you are looking for. Just don't call it red flags and dismiss that they could be what someone else is looking for.
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WhipLuvr
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ugh, yeah. Like if the guy says he only dates or play with blondes with short hair, so he insists that you bleach and cut your hair before even meeting IRL. Because that is what you do if you want to date him, changing yourself is the price of admission.
Sweetdaisymae
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Very true! A bad haircut demanded by your Dom may simply be him/her testing your willingness to submit.
I am talking about the potentially damaging behaviours, the things that if you hook up with this individual, will mean you not walking away either physically or emotionally unscathed.
I have made mistakes due to inexperience. I didn't communicate enough, relying on the fact that the Dom I was doing a scene with was experienced and a medical professional. Neither thing prevented him being an arsehole, abusing me emotionally and breaking my hard limits physically. I learned, pretty quick.
Communication is key.
Is the potential Dom listening to you?
Are they interested in you as a person?
Are they striving to discover what makes you tick and if your kinks are compatible with theirs? (after all a good Dom will put a lot of emotional energy into the relationship)
Are they playing mind games, twisting things you say?
Yes these are rules of nilla relationships too, but for some reason, people are all too ready to be a sub, but don't wait to discover what dynamic they need in a relationship, or what attributes they need in a Dom.
midwestyankee
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The bolded phrase, it seems to me, is an essential element in a red flag: you're being told to behave in a certain way because it's the price of admission. Not when you already have a firm relationship but even before you're allowed to get to know the other person. CM is quite right that particular behaviors and demands might not be a red flag at all in certain situations or for certain people. But the attitude behind those demands is the determining factor. When people you don't know insist on submission as the price of being admitted into their mere presence (either in person or on line), then, Houston, we have a problem.
Primalex
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Uhm, this is how dating works - usually the expectations of a certain behavior are just not expressed that blatantly.
And, for every woman who hates a "Drop down to your knees and suck my cock" introduction, there is one who expects it and dismisses you for writing three sentences without sexual content.
There is no problem. Or let's say: There is as much a problem as looking for a husband and meeting a one-night stand, who tells you that he only wants a one-night stand. Oh wait, still don't see the problem.
People not telling you what they want but telling you what you want to hear - that is a problem. Didn't read anything in this thread about spotting those.
Sweetdaisymae
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Once again, it's deception, lies, means to get something from a partner without being upfront. Another big red in my book. Just how far will the lack of honesty go?
CutieMouse
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I dunno... I have my own price of admission, and am very up front about it. It's called standards, expectations, and knowing myself.
For example, for years now I've told men they aren't going to end up in my bed, unless they have the patience to develop a friendship with me, first. I also won't kiss a man until I've decided I want to have sex with him.
If a guy can handle that? Golden; the odds we'll move forward just increased exponentially. If he isn't interested in how I run things on my end? Golden; I just avoided wasting my time on someone who isn't likely to understand me long term.
So for me, someone with a "price of admission" card on the table, isn't a red flag. It's simply someone incompatible to myself.
I think one of the reasons I dislike the term "red flag" is that it gets so watered down by personal preferences, instead of being limited to examples of flat out abuse - which don't change, regardless of power dynamics.
For example, for years now I've told men they aren't going to end up in my bed, unless they have the patience to develop a friendship with me, first. I also won't kiss a man until I've decided I want to have sex with him.
If a guy can handle that? Golden; the odds we'll move forward just increased exponentially. If he isn't interested in how I run things on my end? Golden; I just avoided wasting my time on someone who isn't likely to understand me long term.
So for me, someone with a "price of admission" card on the table, isn't a red flag. It's simply someone incompatible to myself.
I think one of the reasons I dislike the term "red flag" is that it gets so watered down by personal preferences, instead of being limited to examples of flat out abuse - which don't change, regardless of power dynamics.
midwestyankee
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This is a fair point. I have been seeing "red flag" to mean something a little less restrictive than as a signal only of a potentially abusive person.
How can you tell if someone is likely abusive or merely severely incompatible without first getting to know them? I don't think you can. It seems to me that if, before you are allowed to get to know the person, he or she insists that you submit to his or her will in ways that you would only ever agree to in a very solid relationship, then that person is not allowing you to get to know them well enough to make an informed decision. While such an insistence might not be dispositive of a truly abusive nature, it's close enough that I would call it an orange flag. If "red flag" is used only as an indicator of universally abusive behaviors, then we need another flag.
The thing is, there's a spectrum of behaviors that terminates at things that would be considered abusive in all cases but it also includes behaviors that, while not necessarily abusive all the time, would be very unhealthy (if not borderline abusive) for some people. This is different from behaviors that are merely incompatible.
IrisAlthea
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This.
As for the "drop to your knees"-types, the only real risk is not having standards and boundaries of your own to go by, when you decide if you should drop to your knees or drop the conversation.
