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Morals ethics and tolerance in BDSM

Pure said:
Johnny M


I act in my self-interest with my submissive...and I make sure she is acting in her self-interest in her submission. It can be looked at as a more intense version of a coach/athlete relationship, in which the physical pain and hardship that the coach inflicts is for the ultimate, long-term benefit of the athlete. While the coach may be acting in his own interest(money, fame, self-satisfaction, etc), he must also keep his athlete healthy and growing in the strengths and skills of the sport.

Not a bad analogy, JM. But that point was addressed in my post already.




...cunt...

Fuck you,

----
Try to stay cool, JM; fits of pique and temper are not befitting a dominate master of your imposing stature and impressive capacity for creative insult.


:rose:
Click to expand...
Well, your posts do rather resemble the north end of a south-bound mule...
 
Hello Pure,

There is no change in my position; I have indeed said that because of the activities we are involved in we should apply them stricter. But that does not mean that the morals and ethics we use are more or less than that of any other human. I think you could consider it to driving a car and driving a rally car.

The basics are the same, clutch, steering, gas peddle, you name it, but the difference is that when you drive a rally car, you need to pay more attention, be more in control , a mistake is easier made, however when driving a car, any car, a mistake can cost your life. The rally car driver is not necessarily a better driver, but he takes more risk, he lives more on the edge, so if he wants to continue driving a rally car, he needs to be pay more attention to his driving than the average driver normally would.

Self interest inside BDSM does not necessarily mean that you do not have morals and ethics; it is very long healthy discussion self-interest in BDSM and one I refer you to the library for.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187835

I feel it is important for people inside BDSM to be able to give their honest opinion, without of course insulting an individual, without being attacked for it. It seems as if nowadays it is more important to be considerate and tolerant of others than it is to give honest feedback about actions.

There seems to be a movement surrounding three values.

  1. BE TOLERANT
  2. DO NOT JUDGE
  3. ACCEPT ALL KINKS
    [/list=1]

    I am in favour of tolerance, non-judgement and acceptance, however we need to also have a balance in which we should not push away our own morals and ethics to uphold these values. They should be part of the whole, but not become the rulers of all. The reality however is that these values are being used to condone behaviour which I will not condone.

    Ethics are a highly personal matter and vary from person to person however one of my ethics is that when I see something I consider unethical I will give my feedback on it. There is not one true way to BDSM, there are as many ways as there are individuals involved. My way is rooted within my morals and my ethics.

    Francisco.
 
scarlet vixen said:
Very nicely put, Francisco. You are ever the gentleman dom.

:rose:
Click to expand...

Well thank you for the compliment but feel that is a title reserved for the one and true gentleman dom Richard49.

Francisco.
 
Ok, I lurked here for a few days, before deciding to post anything. First, I think that truthfulness is the single most important aspect of ANY relationship. Not just bdsm, or vanilla, or sexual. It applies to work, school, friends. I can not claim to always be truthful, as that would be hypocritical- no one is perfect. But I do try my best to be honest at all times, believing as I do that what you send out returns to you. I have no problem playing with someone who is in an open relationship, as long as all parties are aware of what is happening, and consent to it.

I am in an open relationship myself~ the rule is that we tell each other what is going on, no lies. I don't give a lot of chances with lying... hurt me once, shame on you, hurt me twice, shame on me.

As far as telling my friends the truth, even when hurtful, I do. I would not be able to consider myself a friend if I did otherwise... and I demand the same honesty of them. It does no one any good to simply parrot kind words when someone you are supposed to care about is doing something wrong. If they don't agree with you, that is fine, but at least you tried.

If people did not disagree, there would be no growth, no change in perspective, no motivation for new and improved ideas.

As far as stating an opinion about something posted here that I find to be wrong... well, I do that, usually. And I have gotten in some flame wars (nothing compared to what you go through, CF) but I will continue to state my opinion.


edited to add that many people have posted things here that I completely did not agree with, but that does not mean that I don't still respect their opinions on other matters.
 
Last edited:
catalina_francisco said:

There seems to be a movement surrounding three values.

  1. BE TOLERANT
  2. DO NOT JUDGE
  3. ACCEPT ALL KINKS
    [/list=1]
Click to expand...


  1. Words to live by.
 
Some remarks about the three values F has discussed: tolerance, non-judgmentalism, and acceptance of all kinks.

Tolerance is of course an important value.

Acceptance of all kinks, however, has rarely been the case in any group I know of, except for Caligula and his buds.

Acceptance of all kinks where others are not harmed, probably what Francisco is talking about, is still a rarity, and often not found in this forum, for example. It seems necessary for people to say "While I'll do X, and maybe consider trying Y, I never would do Z cuz it disgusts me."

====

Added: Upon careful reading it's evident that F does not actually endorse tolerance, non judgmentalism and acceptance of all kinks as predominate values. He calls for 'ethics' as of equal importance (at least for himself). Indeed, he seems to suggest that 'ethics' might overrule these three values in certain cases.

Possibly that would lead him to say, of certain (non-harmful) kinks,
"it's not in my ethics to practice that;" e.g., sleeping with his adult sister.

===
Francisco said,


There seems to be a movement surrounding three values.


BE TOLERANT

DO NOT JUDGE

ACCEPT ALL KINKS



I am in favour of tolerance, non-judgement and acceptance, however we need to also have a balance in which we should not push away our own morals and ethics to uphold these values. They should be part of the whole, but not become the rulers of all. The reality however is that these values are being used to condone behaviour which I will not condone.
 
Last edited:
catalina_francisco:
"There seems to be a movement surrounding three values.

  1. BE TOLERANT
  2. DO NOT JUDGE
  3. ACCEPT ALL KINKS
    [/list=1]"


  1. Yeah, it's called stupidity. Cultural relativism and moral relativism are abominations to any sane and moral mind.

    If my ‘kink’ is picking up 13-year-olds outside of malls, putting a gun to their head, and forcing them to perform various acts in front of a camera, is anyone going to ACCEPT that? Are they going to say, “I really shouldn’t judge you.”?

    I believe that some actions are right while others are wrong. People that act rightly should be rewarded, those that act wrongly should be stopped or punished, and those whose actions are neither right nor wrong should be left alone.

    I can masturbate to tentacle anime, hang around porn sites, and be BDSM-curious (or, whatever) without violating my ethics. I can easily tolerate people who think I’m going to hell or tolerate people who like having others sew their pussy shut with fishing wire because neither of those violate my ethics. I can’t tolerate liars or murderers or mimes though, they’re doing something wrong.

    There’s a huge difference between keeping an open-mind and ‘not judging’ others.
 
Last edited:
Never said:
catalina_francisco:
"There seems to be a movement surrounding three values.

  1. BE TOLERANT
  2. DO NOT JUDGE
  3. ACCEPT ALL KINKS
    [/list=1]"


  1. Yeah, it's called stupidity. Cultural relativism and moral relativism are abominations to any sane and moral mind.

    If my ‘kink’ is picking up 13-year-olds outside of malls, putting a gun to their head, and forcing them to perform various acts in front of a camera, is anyone going to ACCEPT that? Are they going to say, “I really shouldn’t judge you.”?

    I believe that some actions are right while others are wrong. People that act rightly should be rewarded, those that act wrongly should be stopped or punished, and those whose actions are neither right nor wrong should be left alone.

    I can masturbate to tentacle anime, hang around porn sites, and be BDSM-curious (or, whatever) without violating my ethics. I can easily tolerate people who think I’m going to hell or tolerate people who having others sew their pussy shut with fishing wire because neither of those violate my ethics. I can’t tolerate liars or murderers or mimes though, they’re doing something wrong.

    There’s a huge difference between keeping an open-mind and ‘not judging’ others.
Click to expand...


  1. Mimes?
 
Never said:

I believe that some actions are right while others are wrong. People that act rightly should be rewarded, those that act wrongly should be stopped or punished, and those whose actions are neither right nor wrong should be left alone...

...There’s a huge difference between keeping an open-mind and ‘not judging’ others.
Click to expand...

There are folks who feel that masturbation is immoral. There are folks who would find an open relationship, such as niteshade talks about, to be immoral and unethical. There are folks who feel that homosexuality and bisexuality are immoral.

Francisco says in his last post, "Ethics are a highly personal matter and vary from person to person however one of my ethics is that when I see something I consider unethical I will give my feedback on it. There is not one true way to BDSM, there are as many ways as there are individuals involved. My way is rooted within my morals and my ethics."

While I don't disagree with this, I'm thinking that it's not always appropriate to give your feedback on ethics and morality. For instance, if you find homosexuality to be immoral, when you see two men sharing a loving kiss on the street, are you going to publicly harangue them with that opinion?

Say that your ethical and moral view of BDSM does not approve of putting a sub on a leash and making them crawl on hands and knees for the night. Does that mean that, in a group setting, you're going to make a point to tell a fellow dominant doing just that how immoral and unethical you think they are?

I'm thinking you won't be invited back to THAT party if you do. Of course, if you do find that kind of play immoral and unethical, you aren't going to want to go back there anyway.

I don't believe that tolerance and open-mindedness means accepting every idea that you find personally abhorrent. But I think there's a lot of grey area.


*edited to add that I hate mimes. I find them unethical, immoral, and abhorrent.*
 
Good open honest discussion so far, see S'Lara so now and then we can behave.Good open honest discussions so far, see S'Lara so now and then we can behave. :p

Hello Temptress_1960,

I do not believe in grey areas in ethics or morals, if something is wrong to you it is, if you think something is amoral or unethical then there is not much room left to play. I do however think we all choose the communities we become part of and being part of a community does mean that at the minimum you need to have some common sense. I mean if you find it disgusting to see two lesbians have sex, you should not consort with lesbians who have sex in public. If you can not accept humiliation, or sadism or masochism well then maybe you should not be part of the BDSM community.

This does not mean however that you need to abandon your own ethics and morals. Talking with others about it might be very confrontational but it also makes open discussion possible. Hiding feelings not talking about it with others only creates misconceptions and can end in hatred. By opening up discussion you also give the other party the possibility to convince you of your own misguided ways. Getting back to the homosexual example, if there would have been no opening up of dialogue probably there still would be even more persons who could not understand homosexuality and would see it as something amoral.

Francisco.
 
(waves arms)
(points away; frowns)
(looks at you; scratches head, looks puzzled)
(points to you, then away; nods; raises eyebrows as if to question 'do you see it?')
(points away; looks at you)
(bangs head with hand, repeatedly, as if in frustration)

:confused: :mad:
 
It's that damned invisible box they're always trapped in.

Not to mention the invisible ropes they're always pulling.

If a mime falls in the forest, does anyone hear?

To be a bit more clear, in my post when I refer to grey areas, what I mean is those actions and concepts that could reasonably be thought of as either ethical or unethical.

For instance, spanking your children. Not in an abusive manner, but a swat on the hand of a toddler who is reaching for a lamp cord to chew on. Or a couple swats on the butt for a child who was told not to put his toys in the microwave, but does it any way. (And yes, toys and books will burn in the microwave.)

There are people who find that wrong. There are other people who don't. I can see both sides of this (yeah, I'm the mother of 3 boys, all of whom have made it to young adulthood, thank God, and all of whom have had their butts smacked upon occasion). This, to me, is a grey area in that reasonable arguments can be made both ways.

In a D/s sense, I find some of the more extreme pain play worrisome. It's not for me, and I would object most strenuously to anyone thinking they were gonna inflict it on my amply padded self - but I support the right of those who do enjoy it to do so.

In many ways, I find it unethical to humiliate another person - but those folks who like that, and crave it, and incorporate it into their own lives, well, I certainly am not going to tell them that they are wrong. Because for them, it's not wrong. So to me that's another grey area.
 
I think we have different definitions on unethical and amoral.

I have limits, things I can not or do not, want to do, for example fire play. Those things to me are not unethical.

Dishonesty is to me however or wilfully ignoring consent, basically rape. That to me is more unethical behaviour.

If I find it acceptable behaviour but I do not want to do it, I consider that a limit.
I can not accept behaviour then that to me is unethical.

Francisco.
 
catalina_francisco said:
Good open honest discussion so far, see S'Lara so now and then we can behave.Good open honest discussions so far, see S'Lara so now and then we can behave. :p

Hello Temptress_1960,

I do not believe in grey areas in ethics or morals, if something is wrong to you it is, if you think something is amoral or unethical then there is not much room left to play. I do however think we all choose the communities we become part of and being part of a community does mean that at the minimum you need to have some common sense. I mean if you find it disgusting to see two lesbians have sex, you should not consort with lesbians who have sex in public. If you can not accept humiliation, or sadism or masochism well then maybe you should not be part of the BDSM community.

This does not mean however that you need to abandon your own ethics and morals. Talking with others about it might be very confrontational but it also makes open discussion possible. Hiding feelings not talking about it with others only creates misconceptions and can end in hatred. By opening up discussion you also give the other party the possibility to convince you of your own misguided ways. Getting back to the homosexual example, if there would have been no opening up of dialogue probably there still would be even more persons who could not understand homosexuality and would see it as something amoral.

Francisco.
Click to expand...

*peeks in* Why, i expected no less from a group of intelligent adults seeking good clean debate.

i am still reading the thread with much interest but will refrain from further commentary. Most of my own thoughts have been echoed by many.

lara
 
Re: about mimes

catalina_francisco said:
Can someone please explain to me what is so bad about mimes?

Francisco.
Click to expand...
Other than they're caught in an endless parade of charades?

and just for shits and grins ... the real lyrics.

Lying in my bed I hear the clock tick,
And think of you
Caught up in circles
Confusion is nothing new
Flashback--warm nights--
Almost left behind
Suitcase of memories,
Time after--

Sometimes you picture me--
I'm walking too far ahead
You're calling to me, I can't hear
What you've said--
Then you say--go slow--
I fall behind--
The second hand unwinds

CHORUS:
If you're lost you can look--and you will find me
Time after time
If you fall I will catch you--I'll be waiting
Time after time

After my picture fades and darkness has
Turned to gray
Watching through windows--you're wondering
If I'm OK
Secrets stolen from deep inside
The drum beats out of time--

CHORUS

You said go slow--
I fall behind
The second hand unwinds--

CHORUS

Time after time
Time after time
Time after time
Time after time
 
Temptress_1960 said:
There are folks who feel that masturbation is immoral. There are folks who would find an open relationship, such as niteshade talks about, to be immoral and unethical. There are folks who feel that homosexuality and bisexuality are immoral.

Francisco says in his last post, "Ethics are a highly personal matter and vary from person to person however one of my ethics is that when I see something I consider unethical I will give my feedback on it. There is not one true way to BDSM, there are as many ways as there are individuals involved. My way is rooted within my morals and my ethics."

While I don't disagree with this, I'm thinking that it's not always appropriate to give your feedback on ethics and morality. For instance, if you find homosexuality to be immoral, when you see two men sharing a loving kiss on the street, are you going to publicly harangue them with that opinion?

Say that your ethical and moral view of BDSM does not approve of putting a sub on a leash and making them crawl on hands and knees for the night. Does that mean that, in a group setting, you're going to make a point to tell a fellow dominant doing just that how immoral and unethical you think they are?

I'm thinking you won't be invited back to THAT party if you do. Of course, if you do find that kind of play immoral and unethical, you aren't going to want to go back there anyway.

I don't believe that tolerance and open-mindedness means accepting every idea that you find personally abhorrent. But I think there's a lot of grey area.


*edited to add that I hate mimes. I find them unethical, immoral, and abhorrent.*
Click to expand...
There are two types if unethical behavious that we can consider. The type you describe(making a sub crawl all night) is none of my business, because the sub is consenting to it. If someone is willing to put up with what I consider to be nonsense, I don't feel like I can say anything unless they ask specifically. Of course, here on Lit they do sometimes ask, and I will give them my most honest answer, even if it pisses off some people.
The other sort of situation is when a person has interfering with another person's aboility to make an informed decision to give consent, through lies and deception. In that case, I cannot sit idle, let alone support the dishonest person. I cannot in general be open minded about dishonesty.
 
Johnny Mayberry said:
There are two types if unethical behavious that we can consider. The type you describe(making a sub crawl all night) is none of my business, because the sub is consenting to it. If someone is willing to put up with what I consider to be nonsense, I don't feel like I can say anything unless they ask specifically. Of course, here on Lit they do sometimes ask, and I will give them my most honest answer, even if it pisses off some people.
The other sort of situation is when a person has interfering with another person's aboility to make an informed decision to give consent, through lies and deception. In that case, I cannot sit idle, let alone support the dishonest person. I cannot in general be open minded about dishonesty.
Click to expand...

I am sure you and F are twins.....you seem to share many good points. Dishonesty just seems to breed so many other germs in a relationship, none of them good or encouraging trust.

Catalina
 
catalina_francisco said:
I am sure you and F are twins.....you seem to share many good points. Dishonesty just seems to breed so many other germs in a relationship, none of them good or encouraging trust.

Catalina
Click to expand...

I'm having rather unethical thoughts about there being some sort of 'tatse test' to see exactly how similar we are...when is teh next get-together?
 
Johnny Mayberry said:
I'm having rather unethical thoughts about there being some sort of 'tatse test' to see exactly how similar we are...when is teh next get-together?
Click to expand...


When I get some energy and incentive kicking in< I think I will need to put some serious thought to that one. Taste testing...now that is an interesting concept...I have been in a nibbling mood of late, think it is the sudden withdrawal of good red meat from the diet since our return. LOL.

Catalina
 
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