AlwaysHungry
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Well, don't out yourself prematurely if you want your authorship to be a surprise.
Scansion workshop thread
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Well, don't out yourself prematurely if you want your authorship to be a surprise.
Sinseria
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AlwaysHungry
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Champagne1982 has graciously given me permission to tinker with her lovely poem from the Valentine's challenge. So, the first step would be to scan the meter. I have given my interpretation below -- others may have a different take:
Stardust Lullabye
When stardust limns the world in white,
and the moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
"And the" goes by quickly enough to be heard as one syllable, although I think that "the" could also be eliminated without harming the meaning.
we should bathe our souls in that good light
not fall damp and wasted amongst the fools
where stagnant water breeds all that's wrong.
This moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the voice of evening song,
night strives to deafen the melody of love
in stagnant water that breeds all that's wrong.
In the line above, it would be more natural to put the stress on "breeds" -- it's an important word, being the verb. But I think it is possible to "hear" this line as I have indicated, making the meter regular, alternating stressed and unstressed syllables.
So until heaven's angels fall from above
and ease the moon into its darkened bed
please, dear, sweeten the melody of love
with kisses of dewfall on my sleepy head.
I would consider the line above to be regular, because "kisses of" goes by quickly enough that to me "-es of" sounds like only one syllable instead of two.
The coming dawn settles me to my rest
and eases the moon into its darkened bed.
My heart understands how I've been blessed
when stardust limns the world in white.
The coming dawn settles me to my rest
and bathes my soul in that good light.
In the line above, it might be natural to stress the word "good". But I can "hear" it as indicated, making the meter regular.
The first two lines of the poem are in iambic tetrameter, which sets up an expectation in the reader/listener that the poem will continue in that rhythm. Therefore, as an exercise, I think it would be useful to see whether judicious tinkering can make the poem conform to that metric scheme without harming the beauty of the poem. I have put in red the lines that are already in iambic tetrameter. Another option would be to make all the lines iambic pentameter instead -- there are some lovely lines of pentameter now, such as "and ease the moon into its darkened bed".
Stardust Lullabye
When stardust limns the world in white,
and the moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
"And the" goes by quickly enough to be heard as one syllable, although I think that "the" could also be eliminated without harming the meaning.
we should bathe our souls in that good light
not fall damp and wasted amongst the fools
where stagnant water breeds all that's wrong.
This moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the voice of evening song,
night strives to deafen the melody of love
in stagnant water that breeds all that's wrong.
In the line above, it would be more natural to put the stress on "breeds" -- it's an important word, being the verb. But I think it is possible to "hear" this line as I have indicated, making the meter regular, alternating stressed and unstressed syllables.
So until heaven's angels fall from above
and ease the moon into its darkened bed
please, dear, sweeten the melody of love
with kisses of dewfall on my sleepy head.
I would consider the line above to be regular, because "kisses of" goes by quickly enough that to me "-es of" sounds like only one syllable instead of two.
The coming dawn settles me to my rest
and eases the moon into its darkened bed.
My heart understands how I've been blessed
when stardust limns the world in white.
The coming dawn settles me to my rest
and bathes my soul in that good light.
In the line above, it might be natural to stress the word "good". But I can "hear" it as indicated, making the meter regular.
The first two lines of the poem are in iambic tetrameter, which sets up an expectation in the reader/listener that the poem will continue in that rhythm. Therefore, as an exercise, I think it would be useful to see whether judicious tinkering can make the poem conform to that metric scheme without harming the beauty of the poem. I have put in red the lines that are already in iambic tetrameter. Another option would be to make all the lines iambic pentameter instead -- there are some lovely lines of pentameter now, such as "and ease the moon into its darkened bed".
champagne1982
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Here is a vocaroo voice recording of my poem, Stardust Lullaby, with a live edit of the meter while I read it.
Stardust Lullabye
Stardust Lullabye
AlwaysHungry
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Here's what I now hear in the recording with the modified text:
Stardust Lullabye
When stardust limns the world in white,
and the moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
we should bathe our souls in that good light
Champs reads this line in such a way that "we should" comes across as one unstressed syllable -- I don't think that the typical reader would "hear" it that way in the mind, but you can't argue with the sound.
not fall damp and wasted 'mongst the fools
where stagnant water breeds all wrong.
Even though your voice lingers a bit on "all", it is still what I call a "wild card" in the meter; "breeds" and "wrong" are clearly stressed.
This moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the voice of evening song,
night strives to deafen this melody of love
I think that "Night strives" may be what Tzara identifies as a spondee. I think that for metric purposes you could even consider "night" unstressed, although you would still have 5 stressed syllables remaining.
in stagnant water that breeds all wrong.
This is another one of those situations where the two unstressed syllables in "water that" seem to me to happen quickly enough to be considered one syllable for the purposes of meter.
So until heaven's angels fall from above
and ease the moon to darkened bed
please, dear, sweeten this melody of love
with kisses of dewfall on my sleepy head.
I would consider the line above to be regular, because "kisses of" goes by quickly enough that to me "-es of" sounds like only one syllable instead of two.
The coming dawn settles me to rest
and eases the moon to its darkened bed.
I hear "eases the" as effectively two syllables and "to its" as effectively one syllable.
My heart understands how I've been blessed
Champs reads "under" as effectively one syllable -- my ear welcomes that
when stardust limns the world in white.
The coming dawn settles me to my rest
and bathes my soul in that good light.
Do other people hear this differently?
One initial suggestion: you could modify "So until heaven's angels fall from above" to "'til heaven's angels fall from above" which would give you another line of tetrameter, without injuring the line IMO.
Stardust Lullabye
When stardust limns the world in white,
and the moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
we should bathe our souls in that good light
Champs reads this line in such a way that "we should" comes across as one unstressed syllable -- I don't think that the typical reader would "hear" it that way in the mind, but you can't argue with the sound.
not fall damp and wasted 'mongst the fools
where stagnant water breeds all wrong.
Even though your voice lingers a bit on "all", it is still what I call a "wild card" in the meter; "breeds" and "wrong" are clearly stressed.
This moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the voice of evening song,
night strives to deafen this melody of love
I think that "Night strives" may be what Tzara identifies as a spondee. I think that for metric purposes you could even consider "night" unstressed, although you would still have 5 stressed syllables remaining.
in stagnant water that breeds all wrong.
This is another one of those situations where the two unstressed syllables in "water that" seem to me to happen quickly enough to be considered one syllable for the purposes of meter.
So until heaven's angels fall from above
and ease the moon to darkened bed
please, dear, sweeten this melody of love
with kisses of dewfall on my sleepy head.
I would consider the line above to be regular, because "kisses of" goes by quickly enough that to me "-es of" sounds like only one syllable instead of two.
The coming dawn settles me to rest
and eases the moon to its darkened bed.
I hear "eases the" as effectively two syllables and "to its" as effectively one syllable.
My heart understands how I've been blessed
Champs reads "under" as effectively one syllable -- my ear welcomes that
when stardust limns the world in white.
The coming dawn settles me to my rest
and bathes my soul in that good light.
Do other people hear this differently?
One initial suggestion: you could modify "So until heaven's angels fall from above" to "'til heaven's angels fall from above" which would give you another line of tetrameter, without injuring the line IMO.
legerdemer
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playing with stardust...err, Stardust
I hope Champs doesn't mind that I took liberties with her poem. I tried as an exercise to make it all tetrameter. It required some poetic (I hope it was poetic) license, but I tried hard not to change the flavor or meaning of her beautiful lines.
(I am still working on my villanelle but haven't been able to progress.)
Stardust Lullabye - variation
champagne1982
When stardust limns the world in white,
and moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
we'd bathe our souls in that good light
not fall damp, wasted amongst fools
where stagnant water breeds what's wrong.
This moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the voice of evening song,
night strives to deafen melodies of love
in stagnant water that breeds what's wrong.
So until heaven's angels fall from above
and ease the moon into its darkened bed
please, dear, make sweet the melody of love
with dewfall kisses on my sleepy head.
The coming dawn then lays me to rest
and tucks the moon into its darkened bed.
My heart understands how I've been blessed
when stardust limns the world in white.
The coming dawn then lays me to rest
and bathes my soul in that good light.
PS The last line of the third stanza still worries me. Anyway, here for your comments..
I hope Champs doesn't mind that I took liberties with her poem. I tried as an exercise to make it all tetrameter. It required some poetic (I hope it was poetic) license, but I tried hard not to change the flavor or meaning of her beautiful lines.
(I am still working on my villanelle but haven't been able to progress.)
Stardust Lullabye - variation
champagne1982
When stardust limns the world in white,
and moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
we'd bathe our souls in that good light
not fall damp, wasted amongst fools
where stagnant water breeds what's wrong.
This moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the voice of evening song,
night strives to deafen melodies of love
in stagnant water that breeds what's wrong.
So until heaven's angels fall from above
and ease the moon into its darkened bed
please, dear, make sweet the melody of love
with dewfall kisses on my sleepy head.
The coming dawn then lays me to rest
and tucks the moon into its darkened bed.
My heart understands how I've been blessed
when stardust limns the world in white.
The coming dawn then lays me to rest
and bathes my soul in that good light.
PS The last line of the third stanza still worries me. Anyway, here for your comments..
Last edited:
AlwaysHungry
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The last line of the third stanza is metrically the same as Champs' last version. I won't do a complete scan of your re-write -- I'll just identify the problem lines as I see them:
Stardust Lullabye - variation
champagne1982
When stardust limns the world in white,
and moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
we'd bathe our souls in that good light
not fall damp, wasted amongst fools
This line is a problem. "Not", "Fall" and "Damp" are all wild cards, to my way of reading, and could be either stressed or unstressed. However, placing "wasted" and "amongst" in succession is trouble, since you can't alter the fact that they have pre-determined stresses and you wind up with two unstressed syllables in a row. It might be resolved poetically by saying "'mongst" (as Champs does in her re-written version.) The other problem is that there seem to be five feet in the line. It's ambiguous. One possible solution would be to drop "damp," which would be a shame. Or replace "wasted" with "spent", which would give you tetrameter as follows: "Not fall damp, spent, amongst the fools." The problem with that is that my ear sort of demands stresses on "not" and "damp" as well. So it's not an adequate solution, to my mind.
where stagnant water breeds what's wrong.
This moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the voice of evening song,
night strives to deafen melodies of love This line is pentameter. Needs to be shortened somehow.
in stagnant water that breeds what's wrong.
So until heaven's angels fall from above
and ease the moon into its darkened bed
This line is pentameter. Needs to be shortened somehow.
please, dear, make sweet the melody of love
This line is pentameter. Needs to be shortened somehow. "Please" could serve as a stressed syllable, but the word which has pre-determined stresses is "melody", and that more or less determines the rest of the line.
with dewfall kisses on my sleepy head.
The coming dawn then lays me to rest
and tucks the moon into its darkened bed.
This line is pentameter. Needs to be shortened somehow.
My heart understands how I've been blessed
when stardust limns the world in white.
The coming dawn then lays me to rest
and bathes my soul in that good light.
Last edited:
AlwaysHungry
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Since the original poem has some really good pentameter lines, it might also be a good exercise to try converting the entire poem into pentameter.
AlwaysHungry
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I think it is much easier to add words than to subtract them, so I put together a version of the poem in pentameter. I fear that some of the lengthened lines do not have the punch that the shorter versions had. Champs, when seeing your sweet, innocent poem wantonly molested by other writers gets to be too much, your safe word is "suffit."
Stardust Lullabye (pentameter version)
When stardust limns the dreaming world in white,
and silken moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
then we should bathe our souls in that good light
and not fall damp and wasted 'mongst the fools
with stagnant water breeding all that's wrong.
This silken moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the common voice of evening song,
night strives to still the melody of love
in stagnant water breeding all that's wrong.
Until the angels fall from heaven above
and ease the moon into its darkened bed
please sweeten, dear, the melody of love
with dewfall's kisses on my sleepy head.
The coming dawn will settle me to rest
and ease the moon into its darkened bed.
My heart now understands how I've been blessed
when stardust limns the dreaming world in white.
The coming dawn will settle me to rest
and bathe my soul in that congenial light.
Stardust Lullabye (pentameter version)
When stardust limns the dreaming world in white,
and silken moonshine wanes in limpid pools,
then we should bathe our souls in that good light
and not fall damp and wasted 'mongst the fools
with stagnant water breeding all that's wrong.
This silken moonshine wanes in limpid pools
and mutes the common voice of evening song,
night strives to still the melody of love
in stagnant water breeding all that's wrong.
Until the angels fall from heaven above
and ease the moon into its darkened bed
please sweeten, dear, the melody of love
with dewfall's kisses on my sleepy head.
The coming dawn will settle me to rest
and ease the moon into its darkened bed.
My heart now understands how I've been blessed
when stardust limns the dreaming world in white.
The coming dawn will settle me to rest
and bathe my soul in that congenial light.
Tzara
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Hi, AH. I'm interested in how you would scan this poem, which you have said is one of your favorites, if not perhaps your very favorite poem:
On First Looking into Chapman's Homer
John Keats
Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.
I don't have any secret program here. I just want to see how you would scan it because I want to use it in my sonnet thread.John Keats
Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.
champagne1982
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I'm enjoying what you're doing to the poem. I won't be editing it over much.. the one thing about meter that I'd read, regarding villanelles is that they're usually iambic. Note that it wasn't specified the foot counts.. just that they were iambs. That's where my liberties with tetra and penta came into play. If it sounds ok to my ear, then that's what I'm shaking with happiness over.
That stagnant water breeding line is annoying to me, and were I going to do a rewrite (I still may someday) I would likely ditch that in favour of finding something more in keeping with a happy love. But thank you AH and Mer. Your efforts are an education in how to scan a poem.
AlwaysHungry
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Hi, Tzara. Much of the poem, to my mind's ear, is in strict iambic pentameter, but there are notable exceptions which I will indicate:
On First Looking into Chapman's Homer
John Keats
Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies (I think this one could also be read as standard iambic)
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.
The line in red I believe is intended to be read as iambic -- the final syllable of "Pacific" goes by pretty fast. But technically, it is slight deviation from iambic pentameter.
The others all follow a recognizable pattern -- a trochee, followed by 4 iambs. There are other other patterns. The lines that start with a trochee naturally call attention to the accented first syllable of the line. The first two are quantifiers -- "much" and "oft". The next three are conjunctions, "yet", "then" and "when"-- these lines are transitional, they correspond to the "volta", which I think is very clear in this poem. At the volta, the narrator, who has been talking about things he has seen or heard, comes to the topic of Chapman's translations -- and suddenly he is speaking of things which no one has seen or heard before, scientific breakthroughs in astronomy, or Cortez making a breakthrough in his understanding of geography. He's including Chapman's translation among these cognitive breakthroughs. The final two lines that start with trochees are sensory - "Look'd" and "Silent" - that indicate the awed state of mind of the persons experiencing such a breakthrough.
This all suggests to me that Keats was not just having trouble finding iambs with which to start his lines. I think this is an very good example of a poet who violated the rules intentionally, to achieve an artistic effect.
Plus, it's about translating poetry, a topic close to my heart.
On First Looking into Chapman's Homer
John Keats
Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies (I think this one could also be read as standard iambic)
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.
The line in red I believe is intended to be read as iambic -- the final syllable of "Pacific" goes by pretty fast. But technically, it is slight deviation from iambic pentameter.
The others all follow a recognizable pattern -- a trochee, followed by 4 iambs. There are other other patterns. The lines that start with a trochee naturally call attention to the accented first syllable of the line. The first two are quantifiers -- "much" and "oft". The next three are conjunctions, "yet", "then" and "when"-- these lines are transitional, they correspond to the "volta", which I think is very clear in this poem. At the volta, the narrator, who has been talking about things he has seen or heard, comes to the topic of Chapman's translations -- and suddenly he is speaking of things which no one has seen or heard before, scientific breakthroughs in astronomy, or Cortez making a breakthrough in his understanding of geography. He's including Chapman's translation among these cognitive breakthroughs. The final two lines that start with trochees are sensory - "Look'd" and "Silent" - that indicate the awed state of mind of the persons experiencing such a breakthrough.
This all suggests to me that Keats was not just having trouble finding iambs with which to start his lines. I think this is an very good example of a poet who violated the rules intentionally, to achieve an artistic effect.
Plus, it's about translating poetry, a topic close to my heart.
Last edited:
AlwaysHungry
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Actually, I like it -- it provides contrast to the happy love, thereby strengthening it IMO and preventing the poem from becoming saccharine. I like the range of different images that create a complex night mood.
Tzara
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Hi. Sorry to be a bit late in responding. Other life things, of course. I guess I scan the poem somewhat differently:Hi, Tzara. Much of the poem, to my mind's ear, is in strict iambic pentameter, but there are notable exceptions which I will indicate:
On First Looking into Chapman's Homer
John Keats
Much have I tra / vell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies (I think this one could also be read as standard iambic)
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.
The line in red I believe is intended to be read as iambic -- the final syllable of "Pacific" goes by pretty fast. But technically, it is slight deviation from iambic pentameter.
The others all follow a recognizable pattern -- a trochee, followed by 4 iambs. There are other other patterns. The lines that start with a trochee naturally call attention to the accented first syllable of the line. The first two are quantifiers -- "much" and "oft". The next three are conjunctions, "yet", "then" and "when"-- these lines are transitional, they correspond to the "volta", which I think is very clear in this poem. At the volta, the narrator, who has been talking about things he has seen or heard, comes to the topic of Chapman's translations -- and suddenly he is speaking of things which no one has seen or heard before, scientific breakthroughs in astronomy, or Cortez making a breakthrough in his understanding of geography. He's including Chapman's translation among these cognitive breakthroughs. The final two lines that start with trochees are sensory - "Look'd" and "Silent" - that indicate the awed state of mind of the persons experiencing such a breakthrough.
This all suggests to me that Keats was not just having trouble finding iambs with which to start his lines. I think this is an very good example of a poet who violated the rules intentionally, to achieve an artistic effect.
Plus, it's about translating poetry, a topic close to my heart.
On First Looking into Chapman's Homer
John Keats
Much have / I trav / ell'd in / the realms / of gold,
And man / y good / ly states / and king / doms seen;
Round man / y west / ern is / lands have/ I been
Which bards / in feal / ty to / A·pol / lo hold.
Oft of / one wide / ex·panse / had I / been told
That deep / -brow'd Ho / mer ruled / as his / de·mesne;
Yet did / I nev / er breathe / its pure / ser·ene
Till I / heard Chap / man speak / out loud / and bold:
Then felt / I like / some watch / er of / the skies
When a / new plan / et swims / in·to / his ken;
Or like / stout Cor / tez when / with eag· / le eyes
He star'd / at the / Pa cif / ic—and all / his men
Look'd at / each oth / er with / a wild / sur·mise—
Si lent, / up on / a peak / in Dar / i·en.
Almost wholly iambic, except for the anapestic substitution in line 12 and the trochee beginning line 14.John Keats
Much have / I trav / ell'd in / the realms / of gold,
And man / y good / ly states / and king / doms seen;
Round man / y west / ern is / lands have/ I been
Which bards / in feal / ty to / A·pol / lo hold.
Oft of / one wide / ex·panse / had I / been told
That deep / -brow'd Ho / mer ruled / as his / de·mesne;
Yet did / I nev / er breathe / its pure / ser·ene
Till I / heard Chap / man speak / out loud / and bold:
Then felt / I like / some watch / er of / the skies
When a / new plan / et swims / in·to / his ken;
Or like / stout Cor / tez when / with eag· / le eyes
He star'd / at the / Pa cif / ic—and all / his men
Look'd at / each oth / er with / a wild / sur·mise—
Si lent, / up on / a peak / in Dar / i·en.
Matter of ear, of course, and my ear is certainly not finer than yours. Probably not as good, as you are a musician.
Interesting difference, though.
AlwaysHungry
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I think that I could hear the poem the way you scan it, except for the lines above -- I can't see putting a stress on the words "of" and "a". It would seem awkward to me. There are, of course, plenty of sonnets which adhere more perfectly to iambic pentameter, but I think it is useful that you bring up this one as an example because to my ear, the poet does deviate from it, very consciously, to good artistic effect. I don't want people to think that I am excessively OCD on these matters.
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