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Tax the Rich?

DawnODay said:
What's wrong with "enrichment of the owners"?
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Nothing wrong, but Adam Smith said they must be tightly regulated.

Besides, who are the "owners" of most of these large corporations?
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Who owns very large corporations?

1. Banks
2. Financial firms
3. States and sovereign funds
4. Mutual and pension funds
5. Industrial companies
6. Insurance companies
7. Individuals, families
8. Other
9. Private equity firms
10. Self-ownership

IOW owners are mostly firms playing with other people's money.
 
Hypoxia said:
Nothing wrong, but Adam Smith said they must be tightly regulated.
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Cool. I'll accept this if you will in your next post declare that you accept Adam Smith's philosophy as the appropriate basis for a socio-economic system and live by that acceptance in all future posting at Literotica.

Hypoxia said:
Who owns very large corporations?

1. Banks
2. Financial firms
3. States and sovereign funds
4. Mutual and pension funds
5. Industrial companies
6. Insurance companies
7. Individuals, families
8. Other
9. Private equity firms
10. Self-ownership

IOW owners are mostly firms playing with other people's money.
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Even if this is accurate (and I'm not saying it is or isn't), then you have just proven my point that ultimately we all benefit from lover taxes and increased profits for these companies.

Lets start with #3 and #4: This was my original point.

DawnODay said:
Besides, who are the "owners" of most of these large corporations? Tell us, Carnal_Flower, do you have any mutual funds? (I realize dan_c00000 probably doesn't; he'll need to get a job first.) If you have a 401k or invest in other ways, you are one of the owners benefiting from tax reform.
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Then there is #7 and #10: That just people. You like people, right?

As for the rest -- banks, financial firms, industrial companies, insurance companies, and private equity firms -- those themselves are going to be some sort of corporation (e.g., C corp, S corp, LLC, SC, LLP, etc.) which means they are ultimately owned by #3, #4. #7, or #10. In short, just people.

That's the flaw in the whole "evil corporation" narrative. The ownership of any corporation will ultimately trace back to just people. As I pointed out, and as your own list confirms, that includes people with mutual funds, 401k funds, and pensions. IOW, pretty much everyone including, I'd suppose, you, Hypoxia.
 
Pretty much everyone? I guess it must be nice in Wisconsin, with no welfare recipients, everyone on track to pay off their student loans and mortgages, and blooming savings accounts for all.
 
Oh my god, Dawn, you better hurry and get the word out!

Rumor has it the great Trump Tax Cut, i.e. Deficit Spending for the 1%, failed miserably as a campaign strategy in Pennsylvania, and the GOP is now panicking because it's all they have to run on in November.

•
The GOP tax cut didn't play with blue-collar voters in a red district. Washington Republicans told themselves that their massive $1.5 trillion tax cut would save their congressional majority. Lamb opposed the Trump tax cut, calling it a "giveaway" to the rich and calling for tax cuts targeted to the middle class. The results in Pennsylvania suggest that working-class voters don't see the tax bill, which was heavily weighted toward corporate he up tax cuts, as benefiting them.
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Someone needs to tell them how their stock portfolios and 401ks are doing! Quick!

DawnODay said:
Cool. I'll accept this if you will in your next post declare that you accept Adam Smith's philosophy as the appropriate basis for a socio-economic system and live by that acceptance in all future posting at Literotica.



Even if this is accurate (and I'm not saying it is or isn't), then you have just proven my point that ultimately we all benefit from lover taxes and increased profits for these companies.

Lets start with #3 and #4: This was my original point.



Then there is #7 and #10: That just people. You like people, right?

As for the rest -- banks, financial firms, industrial companies, insurance companies, and private equity firms -- those themselves are going to be some sort of corporation (e.g., C corp, S corp, LLC, SC, LLP, etc.) which means they are ultimately owned by #3, #4. #7, or #10. In short, just people.

That's the flaw in the whole "evil corporation" narrative. The ownership of any corporation will ultimately trace back to just people. As I pointed out, and as your own list confirms, that includes people with mutual funds, 401k funds, and pensions. IOW, pretty much everyone including, I'd suppose, you, Hypoxia.
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Last edited:
Here's your glorious leader in action:

To land the massive Foxconn factory, Gov. Scott Walker has committed the state to paying more than eight times as much per job as Wisconsin will provide under similar job creation deals struck last year, a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel analysis has found.

At more than $200,000 in state taxpayer money per job...

Also, "There is also “profound skepticism” about whether a $3 billion tax credit for Taiwanese manufacturer Foxconn will benefit local businesses, according to poll director Charles Franklin."

Ouch, The poll found 38 percent of registered voters say the Foxconn subsidy is worth it compared with 49 percent who say it’s not.
 
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phrodeau said:
Pretty much everyone? I guess it must be nice in Wisconsin, with no welfare recipients, everyone on track to pay off their student loans and mortgages, and blooming savings accounts for all.
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Thanks for letting everyone know how good things are here! With our booming economy, we will need people moving into the state, filling the tens of thousands of new jobs now predicted for across the state in the coming years, only increasing our tax rolls and the revenue surplus the state has enjoyed every year since Scott Walker became governor (as opposed to the > $3 billion deficit he inherited from his predecessor, Democrat Jim Doyle).

Remember this?

DawnODay said:
To put the above in context, which makes it all the more impressive:

Wisconsin enjoyed increases in private-sector jobs across both months, and set new records for the number of private-sector jobs in the state in September and October.

October brought 9,500 private sector jobs to the state, according to preliminary estimates from the Bureau of Labor Statistics....

Surrounding states didn't fare as well in October. Illinois gained 5,200 private-sector jobs, but Iowa lost 1,100, Michigan lost 500 and Minnesota lost 5,000.​

L. Speckhard Pasque, Private-sector jobs in Wisconsin hit record high for second month in a row, October preliminary estimates show, Capital Times (Nov. 24, 2017). This map summarizes that data:


attachment.php



Illinois was the only other of these states to see job growth and, given the states' relative populations, Illinois's 5,200 new jobs pale in comparison with Wisconsin's 9,500 new jobs.

In short, while the economy is improving across the country generally, Wisconsin's approach to creating a good economy, lowering taxes, balancing budgets and making regulation reasonable, is demonstrably superior, thanks to Gov. Walker and the Badger Republicans.
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These trends have only continued since October!

Carnal_Flower said:
Oh my god, Dawn, you better hurry and get the word out!

....

Someone needs to tell them how their stock portfolios and 401ks are doing! Quick!
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I don't know about you, but my stock portfolio and other investment funds are way up, as are my husband's and our joint accounts.

Again, Carnal_Flower, you reveal more about yourself than you realize or intend. Are you so bitter about how well the economy is now doing because you have neither the capital nor the financial acumen to take advantage of it?

Here is a piece of advice: Even a guy like you, unfamiliar with finance and making only minimal wage, can do well in the market long term by putting, say, $20 per week (if you can't afford that much, make it $10) into an indexed mutual fund (I suggest the S&P, but pick any index you prefer). The trick is not to get scared even when the market drops. In fact, that is when your investment has the greatest earning potential. Commit yourself to making that weekly investment, and by the time you retire, you'll be okay, and can stop being so bitter. You'll be happier.


dan_c00000 said:
Here's your glorious leader in action:

To land the massive Foxconn factory, Gov. Scott Walker has committed the state to paying more than eight times as much per job as Wisconsin will provide under similar job creation deals struck last year, a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel analysis has found.

At more than $200,000 in state taxpayer money per job...

....
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This would be more fun if you didn't make it so easy to wreck you because you keep repeating the same disproven arguments.

DawnODay said:
That argument is either disingenuous or ill-informed. As the quoted article makes clear, collateral development will create additional jobs well into the five figures ("up to 22,000 more"). Also, it is not as if the state is handing Foxxcom a check for $3 billion dollars. It is mostly in the form of tax incentives, as the article makes clear. Tax incentives on taxes Foxxcom would not be paying at all if it did not come to Wisconsin, so there is really no money lost because without those incentives, Foxxcom would not have come at all.

I see two other points worth making. First, as I pointed out above, Wisconsin's prior governor, Jim Doyle left Scott Walker with a >$3 billion deficit when Walker became governor. That was money that actually had to be paid. I did not hear any of the left condemning the way Doyle squandered over $3 billion back then.

Second, someone who's opinions are similar to mine on such things was on another thread accused of hating the poor for having such opinions. Although I do not live in Racine County, I live relatively near to it. Of the counties in Southeastern Wisconsin, Racine County has probably benefited the least from the booming economy in our state, with higher unemployment and poverty rates than its neighboring counties. Be it the 3,000 jobs you mistakenly claim, the 25,000 suggested by the article, or, as is likely, somewhere in between, a lot of those jobs will go to currently poor, unemployed people, many of them people of color. It seems the left begrudges them those jobs because they came in under Walker. They are jobs for the poor all the same.

Now, lets think about who really cares for the poor.
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I wrote the above before the exact details of the deal were published. We now know that Foxxcon has to hit certain development and hiring milestones before any of the incentives go into place. Those milestones ensure that, for the State, even with the incentives the situation is still revenue positive. So each new job, rather than costing "more than $200,000 in state taxpayer money per job," will actually add to State coffers.

Go upstairs, dan_c00000, and ask your mom for a cookie, because you just got wrecked again.

Lastly, I'd like to thank all three of you gentlemen for your repeated comments. It keeps this thread at the top of the Politics Board where thinking people can judge the facts and logic I present as opposed to your emotional class envy.
 
What was it you were saying about resorting to personal insults when you can't argue the facts?

Big big loss in PA, Dawnie. "Tax Cuts" just aren't flying with the "forgotten man." Total loser in a deep red district. One of the whitest in the country. Just elected a DEMOCRAT running AGAINST the tax giveaway. Trump's 20-point margin erased.
Even abortion and God could not save them.

They need to hire you to go do some community outreach, stat!

DawnODay said:
I don't know about you, but my stock portfolio and other investment funds are way up, as are my husband's and our joint accounts.

Again, Carnal_Flower, you reveal more about yourself than you realize or intend. Are you so bitter about how well the economy is now doing because you have neither the capital nor the financial acumen to take advantage of it?

Here is a piece of advice: Even a guy like you, unfamiliar with finance and making only minimal wage, can do well in the market long term by putting, say, $20 per week (if you can't afford that much, make it $10) into an indexed mutual fund (I suggest the S&P, but pick any index you prefer). The trick is not to get scared even when the market drops. In fact, that is when your investment has the greatest earning potential. Commit yourself to making that weekly investment, and by the time you retire, you'll be okay, and can stop being so bitter. You'll be happier.
Click to expand...
 
If it got out that welfare recipients were putting $10 a week into the stock market, Republican lawmakers would swiftly put an end to it.
 
After the Obama years saw historically low labor participation numbers:

According to the latest jobs numbers released by the Labor Department on Friday, something wonderful is happening: Americans are reentering the labor force, growing the size of the labor market at rates not seen for over 15 years....

More workers mean more production and more growth, and the eye-popping spike in labor participation perhaps indicates that increasing economic confidence is drawing some of these lost workers back into our economy.

This is especially welcome news for minority communities, which tend to have higher unemployment rates than white Americans. The Washington Post reported, for instance, that the "unemployment rate for black men is the lowest it has been since December 1973. Hispanic unemployment is still near its low."​

S. Jennings, Trump administration is helping a lost generation of workers recover, (Mar. 9, 2018).
 
Oh No!

GOP tax message hits a snag

More than three months after the passage of the GOP's tax-cut law, new surveys suggest that many people don't think they are getting bigger paychecks, which could cut into support for Republicans in this fall's midterms.

A CNBC poll this week stated that just 32 percent of working adults reported having more take-home pay due to the new law, a problem for Republicans hoping to run on the measure and the health of the economy in November.

he GOP has made the tax-cut law the centerpiece of its campaign message, arguing that Republican control of Congress and the White House led to legislation that is putting more money in people's pockets and stimulating an economy with low unemployment.

Yet the CNBC poll suggested that many people aren't noticing much of a change from the law, a sentiment that could feed into Democratic arguments that it is helping the rich while doing little for the middle class.

The CNBC poll wasn't the first one to show few employed people reporting seeing paycheck boosts due to the tax law. A Politico/Morning Consult poll conducted in mid-February found that 37 percent of employed voters noticed more take-home pay, while 53 percent hadn't.

"The tax bill just doesn't provide much benefit to most people," said Vanessa Williamson, a fellow in governance studies at the Brookings Institution.

The CNBC survey seemed to confirm that result. It showed that people with higher incomes were more likely to notice an increase in take-home pay than low-income individuals - an outcome that Democrats could use against the GOP in their midterm campaign.
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Big loss

No need to tax the rich as Trump's comment about Amazon caused its stock to drop causing the CEO to lose $10.7 billion.
 
DawnODay said:
After the Obama years saw historically low labor participation numbers:

According to the latest jobs numbers released by the Labor Department on Friday, something wonderful is happening: Americans are reentering the labor force, growing the size of the labor market at rates not seen for over 15 years....

More workers mean more production and more growth, and the eye-popping spike in labor participation perhaps indicates that increasing economic confidence is drawing some of these lost workers back into our economy.

This is especially welcome news for minority communities, which tend to have higher unemployment rates than white Americans. The Washington Post reported, for instance, that the "unemployment rate for black men is the lowest it has been since December 1973. Hispanic unemployment is still near its low."​

S. Jennings, Trump administration is helping a lost generation of workers recover, (Mar. 9, 2018).
Click to expand...

Labor participation rates are the dirty little secret Obama never dared mention, as his policies kept millions not only underemployed, but unemployed and uncounted. He never even imagined the pain he put millions thru, while Moochelle complained about the sandwiches they ate. Fucking bastards
 
Tigersman said:
No need to tax the rich as Trump's comment about Amazon caused its stock to drop causing the CEO to lose $10.7 billion.
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Zuck is heading for the poorhouse too. But Tromp wants to raise Amazon's taxes. Isn't that "taxing the rich"? Of course Tromp cut his own taxes, so I guess he's not that rich.
 
When the Congressional Budget Office released its updated budget forecast, everyone focused on the deficit number. But buried in the report was the CBO's tacit admission that it vastly overestimated the cost of the Trump tax cuts, because it didn't account for the strong economic growth they would generate.

Among the many details in the report, the one reporters focused on was the CBO's forecast that the federal deficit would top $1 trillion in 2020, two years earlier than the CBO had previously said.

And, naturally, most news accounts blamed the tax cuts. "U.S. budget deficit to balloon on Republican tax cuts" is how Reuters put it in a headline.

But there's more to the story that the media overlooked.

First, the CBO revised its economic forecast sharply upward this year and next.

Last June, the CBO said GDP growth for 2018 would be just 2%. Now it figures growth will be 3.3% — a significant upward revision. It also boosted its forecast for 2019 from a meager 1.5% to a respectable 2.4%.

"Underlying economic conditions have improved in some unexpected ways since June," the CBO says. Unexpected to the CBO, perhaps, but not to those of us who understood that Trump's tax cuts and deregulatory efforts would boosts growth.

In any case, the CBO now expects GDP to be $6.1 trillion bigger by 2027 than it did before the tax cuts.

The CBO report also makes clear that this faster-growing economy will offset most of the costs of the Trump tax cuts....

That still leaves the problem of the deficit. By 2022, federal deficits will top 5% of GDP, something that happened only once between World War II and President Obama's spending spree.

What's more, national debt is on track to top 91% of GDP by 2025 and reach 96.2% by 2028.

Despite what Democrats and the media insist, the culprit here isn't tax cuts. It is out-of-control spending, which will be nearly $1 trillion higher over the next decade thanks to recent spending deals....

This is little short of a disgrace, and shows that Republicans love spending taxpayer money as much as Democrats....​

It's Official: Trump Tax Cuts Are Boosting Growth And Mostly Paying For Themselves, Investor's Business Daily (Apr. 10, 2018).

In short, it's not a revenue problem, it's a spending problem.
 
In response to Seattle’s proposed head tax, Amazon is pausing construction of a new tower and may sublease to tenants a new skyscraper in downtown Seattle. Up to 8,000 fewer jobs could be created in Seattle as a result.​

B. Dudley, Amazon shows risk of Seattle City Hall head tax, Seattle Times (May 2, 2018).
 
Remember all this dire warnings about how reducing taxes would cause deficits?

Well...

The federal government took in a record tax haul in April en route to its biggest-ever monthly budget surplus, the Congressional Budget Office said, as a surging economy left Americans with more money in their paychecks — and this more to pay to Uncle Sam.

All told the government collected $515 billion and spent $297 billion, for a total monthly surplus of $218 billion. That swamped the previous monthly record of $190 billion, set in 2001.​

S. Dinan, April was best month in history for U.S. budget, according to CBO figures, Washington Times (May 7, 2018).

Lower taxes means a "surging economy." A "surging economy" means more tax revenues. More tax revenues means surpluses or lower deficits.

Unless, of course, Congress continues to increase spending. Aye, there's the rub.
 
The results of lowering taxes to more reasonable levels are in:

[T]he unemployment rate hit 3.9 percent in April, the lowest level this century. At this rate, essentially every American who wants a job could find one. Keep in mind, the unemployment rate was more than double this level as recently as President Obama's second term in office.

Unemployment has dipped below 4 percent only a few times in U.S. history. Yet the underlying figures may be even more remarkable. Unemployment among blacks and Latinos fell to 6.6 percent and 4.8 percent, respectively, their lowest levels in recorded history — and half the rates of five years ago.

This historically low unemployment isn’t part of a natural pattern — like the weather — as some left-wing pundits imply. It’s a result of the pro-business public policies created and implemented by President Trump and Republicans in Congress.

Exhibit A is the historic tax cuts passed late last year. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act delivered the biggest tax relief for small businesses in American history, reduced the tax burden on the middle class, and brought the corporate rate in line with international standards.

Taken together, the tax cuts are putting more money in Americans’ paychecks and on companies’ balance sheets. This leads to more spending, more investment and more jobs. It also means employers will pay higher wages, which are growing at their fastest pace in a decade.

No wonder small business optimism is at an all-time high. According to a national poll of small businesses by the organization that I lead, the Job Creators Network, respondents support the Republican tax cuts by a margin of 10-to-1.

As a result of this tax cut stimulus, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office recently raised its economic growth estimate to 3.3 percent for this year. This is more than double the growth rate of the last year of the Obama administration; it’s the type of growth that ordinary Americans can actually notice in their day-to-day lives.

Prominent left-wing economists scoffed when President Trump predicted this level of growth a couple of years ago. You’d have to believe in “tooth fairies and ludicrous supply-side economics” to believe in his 3 percent growth prediction, is how Obama's former chief economic adviser, Larry Summers, put it.

While Americans should expect this labor market and economic vibrancy as their birthright, bad public policies such as over-taxation and over-regulation threaten it. Still, leading Democrats have promised to raise taxes and increase regulations if they retake control of Congress this fall.​

A. Ortiz, President Trump’s historic jobs achievement, The Hill (May 5, 2018).
 
Don't Democrats ever get tired of being proven wrong?

When Republicans were putting together their tax reform plan last year, a chorus of critics warned that it would devastate state budgets. Like so many other claims, this turned out to be false.

The New York Times reported in November, for example, that "state and local officials in high-tax states like New York, New Jersey and California are warning the tax plan will strain state budgets."

A "news analysis" in the Washington Post said the tax law would make "it harder for states and cities to pay their bills."

A widely cited National Education Association report claimed the GOP tax bill would "blow a nearly $250 billion hole in state and local revenue" that would put "nearly 250,000 education jobs at risk."

But once President Trump signed the tax reform into law, state budget officials started reporting that revenues will actually increase because of it.

New York's Department of Taxation and Finance, for example, reported in January that it expects tax revenues to go up by $1.1 billion in 2019 because of the tax law. This is a state, mind you, whose governor, Andrew Cuomo, described the tax bill as a "missile of destruction … aimed at New York."

Michigan figures revenues will be $1.7 billion higher in 2019. Georgia calculates that state revenues will climb by $5.2 billion over five years. Pennsylvania expects a $340 million bump over the next two years.

The Tax Foundation, which has been collecting this data, reports that 18 states so far say they expect at least a modest boost in revenues as result of the Republican tax plan.

The reason for this windfall is that the tax bill expanded the tax base — by limiting or ending deductions — in exchange for lower income tax rates.​

States Get A Windfall From GOP Tax Cuts, But Will They Return The Money To Taxpayers?, Investor's Business Daily (May 18, 2018).

Meanwhile...

Over the past few months, U.S. economic data has been much more resilient than the rest of the world, and this had led to stronger earnings growth and revisions for American companies, according to Credit Suisse.

Part of the reason that U.S. companies are outperforming their international peers is tax reform.​

L. Klingel, Trump tax reform cements US as world economic leader, Fox Business (May 22, 2018).
 
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