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Feedback wanted

LWulf said:
You don't generally put quotes on INDIRECT internal dialogue (nor do you put it in italics either). Those are how you handle DIRECT internal dialogue.

You're right about my dum [sic] opinions being wrong. My dum [sic] opinion to date has always been no matter how scathing or abusive your response, YOUR OPINIONS were worthy of respect.

Apparently I wrong about that too.
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Then we agree.

Do yourself a favor and read some George V.Higgins before you launch a sermon about internal dialogue.

Youre wrong as can be about FEELINGS ARE THOUGHTS. In fact, youre beyond wrong, youre psychotic. Its as crazy as believing smells are thoughts or tastes are thoughts.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Then we agree.

Do yourself a favor and read some George V.Higgins before you launch a sermon about internal dialogue.

Youre wrong as can be about FEELINGS ARE THOUGHTS. In fact, youre beyond wrong, youre psychotic. Its as crazy as believing smells are thoughts or tastes are thoughts.
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Might I equally suggest you crack open "the Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation" by Jane Straus? It's a nice read and if you can't buy it, try to get it at the local library.

You're right. Smells and tastes are senses and not thoughts, but anytime you make a comparison of a sense, like smell or taste, then it involves thought.

Putting feelings and human characteristics on fate as a controlling person is hardly a feeling. It involves feelings but it is chiefly comprised of thoughts and a, albeit brief, philosophical view that fate holds sway over our lives.

"it felt (feeling) as if (comparison = thought)..."

Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I see it.
 
LWulf said:
Might I equally suggest you crack open "the Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation" by Jane Straus? It's a nice read and if you can't buy it, try to get it at the local library.

You're right. Smells and tastes are senses and not thoughts, but anytime you make a comparison of a sense, like smell or taste, then it involves thought.

Putting feelings and human characteristics on fate as a controlling person is hardly a feeling. It involves feelings but it is chiefly comprised of thoughts and a, albeit brief, philosophical view that fate holds sway over our lives.

"it felt (feeling) as if (comparison = thought)..."

Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I see it.
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Plenty of people say Straus' grammar book is fulla errors and shit she makes up.
 
sr71plt said:
But, then, plenty of people say that about JBJ too. :D

(I doubt you even knew of this book.)
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I didn't know Rowling wrote noir but I didn't miss much. If you wanna clean all the septic tanks its OK with me. That's the difference tween you and me, you know it all and I know what matters.
 
_Lynn_ said:
You needed the structure? What about the readers, though? Do you want them to enjoy the story, too?
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One thing I've noticed about this place, no matter what kind of story or how poorly written, there is always a readership. So, I feel safe experimenting. I agree that my execution is poor but not with the point that there needs to be more dialogue and less narrative for a story to be an interesting read.


PennLady said:
... I think this is well written considering that English isn't your first language.

However, from a story-telling point of view, I think it needs a fair bit of work.

<snip>
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This post has me thinking I should never bother with writing again.


JAMESBJOHNSON said:
FROM CHAPTER ONE, 'It felt as if fate wished that these two girls be brought up sisters.'

The above is a thought NOT a feeling. Feelings include: mad, sad, glad, afraid, tired, hungry, thirsty, nauseous, sleepy, etc.
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JBJ, you made a thread about this in the GB a while back so I already know your thoughts on this subject.

What's wrong with the sentence is not what you claim as the incorrect use of the word felt (which can also be used as 'perceived') but rather its clumsy construction.


ETA- submitted chapter 3 today. I noticed that I also seem to favour the use of 'in fact'.
 
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subdued_passion said:
One thing I've noticed about this place, no matter what kind of story or how poorly written, there is always a readership. So, I feel safe experimenting. I agree that my execution is poor but not with the point that there needs to be more dialogue and less narrative for a story to be an interesting read.




This post has me thinking I should never bother with writing again.




JBJ, you made a thread about this in the GB a while back so I already know your thoughts on this subject.

What's wrong with the sentence is not what you claim as the incorrect use of the word felt (which can also be used as 'perceived') but rather its clumsy construction.


ETA- submitted chapter 3 today. I noticed that I also seem to favour the use of 'in fact'.
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I get it that poor writers use feelings in place of thoughts. I get it that people put gerbils inside their butts. My point is this: Authors should strive to emulate Caesars wife and let their characters have the flaws.
 
subdued_passion said:
One thing I've noticed about this place, no matter what kind of story or how poorly written, there is always a readership. So, I feel safe experimenting. I agree that my execution is poor but not with the point that there needs to be more dialogue and less narrative for a story to be an interesting read.




This post has me thinking I should never bother with writing again.




JBJ, you made a thread about this in the GB a while back so I already know your thoughts on this subject.

What's wrong with the sentence is not what you claim as the incorrect use of the word felt (which can also be used as 'perceived') but rather its clumsy construction.


ETA- submitted chapter 3 today. I noticed that I also seem to favour the use of 'in fact'.
Click to expand...

Why do you solicit feedback when your ego is too tender?
 
subdued_passion said:
I solicit feedback to identify specific areas of improvement. Call my writing what it is. If it's crap, it's crap- no "considering" anything.
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I'm gonna ignore your appeals as I think what you demand is applause. When the pupil is ready the teacher comes.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
I'm gonna ignore your appeals as I think what you demand is applause. When the pupil is ready the teacher comes.
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/Seriously? Do you think I would go about it so clumsily if praise is what I was after?

Now teacher, do you have some specific feedback for me, or should I just bump up your Thoughts Are Not Feelings thread so you can happily argue your point?
 
subdued_passion said:
I solicit feedback to identify specific areas of improvement. Call my writing what it is. If it's crap, it's crap- no "considering" anything.
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You're writing isn't crap, and perhaps it came out wrong, but I was trying to compliment you on your writing. Writing in a foreign language is difficult and in fact I'm a bit jealous you're at the level where you can do that. I've studied three languages in high school and college and anything I would try to write in the main two (Russian and French) would be the most basic children's stuff and probably not very good at that.

You're only going to get better with writing if you practice and get feedback, just as with anything else.

You're right that there's a readership here for just about anything. However, you did ask for feedback, which will include a lot of opinion, and in my opinion, while your language use is great, your story-telling could use some work. That's all I'm saying. For this reader, if I'd stumbled upon your story, I'd have clicked off -- not because of any language issues, but because I find the style boring. But if that's the style you want then I'm not trying to stop you.
 
PennLady said:
However, you did ask for feedback, which will include a lot of opinion, and in my opinion, while your language use is great, your story-telling could use some work. That's all I'm saying. For this reader, if I'd stumbled upon your story, I'd have clicked off -- not because of any language issues, but because I find the style boring. But if that's the style you want then I'm not trying to stop you.
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Ok, so my style of story telling is such that it doesn't engage. If it's not too much trouble could you please do a random sampling of just the start of some of my other stories, to see if this is a habit?

If you ever manage to read any my stories (or even chapter) in their entirety, I'd also love to hear your thoughts on whether I maintain that style or if there are moments where I do manage to draw you in. I think it would help me understand what I'm doing wrong.


:rose:
 
subdued_passion said:
One thing I've noticed about this place, no matter what kind of story or how poorly written, there is always a readership. So, I feel safe experimenting. I agree that my execution is poor but not with the point that there needs to be more dialogue and less narrative for a story to be an interesting read.
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You're right about the readership. However, as PL mentioned, you asked for feedback here, which you received.

You can write a story without a single line of dialogue and have it be interesting. The key is telling an interesting story. Beginning with paragraphs of backstory isn't the way, in my opinion.
 
subdued_passion said:
/Seriously? Do you think I would go about it so clumsily if praise is what I was after?

Now teacher, do you have some specific feedback for me, or should I just bump up your Thoughts Are Not Feelings thread so you can happily argue your point?
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Seriously, yes.

I'm not invested in what you do now that I know you want applause. Youre lazy and impatient and have no appetite for the toil quality requires.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Seriously, yes.

I'm not invested in what you do now that I know you want applause. Youre lazy and impatient and have no appetite for the toil quality requires.
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JBJ, I know your idea of self-improvement is 'read, read, read the masters', it doesn't work for me. I always learn things by doing and then reviewing my work and then work on fixing the gap between where I am and where I ought to be- I tend to use the DMAIC approach for most things. Obviously, I can't do that as I lack the skill to effectively review my own work.
 
subdued_passion said:
JBJ, I know your idea of self-improvement is 'read, read, read the masters', it doesn't work for me. I always learn things by doing and then reviewing my work and then work on fixing the gap between where I am and where I ought to be- I tend to use the DMAIC approach for most things. Obviously, I can't do that as I lack the skill to effectively review my own work.
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So how do you assess the feedback you get? If what you say is true you cant assess it. I know plenty of people with tin-ears for music. They read music and know the theory and have no idea when the sound is better or worse.
 
subdued_passion said:
Ok, so my style of story telling is such that it doesn't engage. If it's not too much trouble could you please do a random sampling of just the start of some of my other stories, to see if this is a habit?

If you ever manage to read any my stories (or even chapter) in their entirety, I'd also love to hear your thoughts on whether I maintain that style or if there are moments where I do manage to draw you in. I think it would help me understand what I'm doing wrong.


:rose:
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I read the first couple of chapters of "Complicated," and it's much better. You start right off in the action to draw the reader in, as unpleasant as the scene itself may be, and back story is then doled out. It's in many ways the opposite of how you start with "More than Friends."

I'm not sure I would finish "Complicated," as I didn't want to read about a man as apparently abusive as Max, but I think the way you're telling that story is much better and more engaging for the reader.
 
Feedback:

I agree with Lynn that there is far too much exposition. There's setting the stage, and then there's cluttering it. You are doing the latter.

To agree with PL, I am incredibly impressed with your writing considering English isn't your first language. I couldn't even IMAGINE showing the kind of proficiency you do in a foreign language.

Finally, to concur with JBJ, God help me, I think reading would help you most of all. It isn't your mechanics that are failing you, it's your structure, your plotting, your style. They're not awful, not even bad, but they are stilted. It's like you're wearing shoes that are too small, using a pen that is too big. Nothing feels comfortable.

A good story builds naturally; you don't have to break out the bricks and mortar and start forcing blocks. The only way to really learn to do that, is to watch others. I have a lot of watching left to do myself. Practice makes perfect, but perception progresses.
 
_Lynn_ said:
You can write a story without a single line of dialogue and have it be interesting.
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Amen to that. That's a knee-jerk attitude I see in quite a bit of Literotica feedback--that it doesn't have dialogue--or enough dialogue. Good stories can be written without any dialogue at all. Dialogue isn't a requirement. To think they do is just one of those pat false axioms folks pick up along the road.

Individual readers can be uncomfortable without dialogue, but that's another--personal reader--matter.
 
subdued_passion said:
JBJ, I know your idea of self-improvement is 'read, read, read the masters', it doesn't work for me. I always learn things by doing and then reviewing my work and then work on fixing the gap between where I am and where I ought to be- I tend to use the DMAIC approach for most things. Obviously, I can't do that as I lack the skill to effectively review my own work.
Click to expand...

JBJ is a fairly new writer. It's typical in this phase to rely heavily on the guidance and techniques of established writers before you gain self-confidence in your own writing. It's also typical in this phase to think you've reinvented the wheel with each perceived new "revelation" in writing--usually perceived in the writings of others rather than in your own discovery through writing yourself (and to bludgeon other writers with the universality of application of these new-found "revelations"). JBJ is just being the typical novice writer--albeit more "in your face" than most others.
 
sr71plt said:
Amen to that. That's a knee-jerk attitude I see in quite a bit of Literotica feedback--that it doesn't have dialogue--or enough dialogue. Good stories can be written without any dialogue at all. Dialogue isn't a requirement. To think they do is just one of those pat false axioms folks pick up along the road.

Individual readers can be uncomfortable without dialogue, but that's another--personal reader--matter.
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I've been working on a non-fiction piece that doesn't have much dialogue. Although the story is about current day events, the past is a huge part as well. Blending the two without falling into a pattern of boring narrative isn't easy. I have a co-author who is writing the same story, but from their perspective, with the completed project a combination of the two.
 
I'll harp on the subject once more (only because I haven't seen JBJ's thread) and then let it drop.

When people aren't sure about their love for another person, they say "I think I love you."

Love is an emotion, therefore a feeling.

If you can't feel thinkings, then the reverse should be true that you can't think feelings.

People say "I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings" but what they really mean is "I'm sorry I hurt your thinkings" because it is what a person thinks that you are sorry for, not some tactile sensation.
 
LWulf said:
I'll harp on the subject once more (only because I haven't seen JBJ's thread) and then let it drop.

When people aren't sure about their love for another person, they say "I think I love you."

Love is an emotion, therefore a feeling.

If you can't feel thinkings, then the reverse should be true that you can't think feelings.

People say "I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings" but what they really mean is "I'm sorry I hurt your thinkings" because it is what a person thinks that you are sorry for, not some tactile sensation.
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As love is a process rather than an event its accurate to say I THINK I LOVE YOU.
 
sr71plt said:
JBJ is a fairly new writer. It's typical in this phase to rely heavily on the guidance and techniques of established writers before you gain self-confidence in your own writing. It's also typical in this phase to think you've reinvented the wheel with each perceived new "revelation" in writing--usually perceived in the writings of others rather than in your own discovery through writing yourself (and to bludgeon other writers with the universality of application of these new-found "revelations"). JBJ is just being the typical novice writer--albeit more "in your face" than most others.
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Youre mind reading again and that's psychotic thought disorder.
 
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