Confederate Flag Pride parade in the South

I do understand, though, what it means to be black from being a black person in America and seeing deeply entrenched racism with supremacy reinforce itself to hold onto a symbol that was used to empower the denial of my ancestors' humanity on all levels.

Agency under that same symbol denied several black people their lives a week plus change ago.

That is all the understanding I require. Others may do as they please, I've unpacked that childhood ignorance, black bagged it, sent it to a landfill and will never again pretend that shit means otherwise.

You've changed your mind based on the actions of a madman? That's a terrible precedent... That kid would have killed without the flag, he'd have found another reason if race didn't suit him, because he's a fucking madman. We cannot let our thoughts be held hostage by the insane, that way will take us to madness.

And you can judge people who fly it, who have it on their cars, you can even judge the men who fought for it, even though almost none of them owned slaves, or gave two fucks about slavery and were only fighting for their homes. What you ought not to do (although you've the right to) is try to take from dead Soldiers their pride, they were American soldiers, and we've honored them as such, that means that we should honor the flag they fought for, even if it was a terrible thing.

We honor the men who die in even wars that are wrong, because they don't choose their wars, because dying in war is something to be honored, because the dead have nothing left but honor.
 
The current flying of that flag began in the 1950s as a middle finger to the SCOTUS over the Brown V Board of Education and the 1960s as blow back from the Civil Rights Acts. It has NOTHING to do with honoring the dead, nothing!

Those that were told that lie were sold a bill of goods.
 
The current flying of that flag began in the 1950s as a middle finger to the SCOTUS over the Brown V Board of Education and the 1960s as blow back from the Civil Rights Acts. It has NOTHING to do with honoring the dead, nothing!

Those that were told that lie were sold a bill of goods.

It didn't, but now it does. Just because something starts off without much meaning doesn't mean that it doesn't gain meaning. To be frank it should have been flying before. So just because something stupid caused something to be fixed is irrelevant.
 
You've changed your mind based on the actions of a madman? That's a terrible precedent... That kid would have killed without the flag, he'd have found another reason if race didn't suit him, because he's a fucking madman. We cannot let our thoughts be held hostage by the insane, that way will take us to madness.

And you can judge people who fly it, who have it on their cars, you can even judge the men who fought for it, even though almost none of them owned slaves, or gave two fucks about slavery and were only fighting for their homes. What you ought not to do (although you've the right to) is try to take from dead Soldiers their pride, they were American soldiers, and we've honored them as such, that means that we should honor the flag they fought for, even if it was a terrible thing.

We honor the men who die in even wars that are wrong, because they don't choose their wars, because dying in war is something to be honored, because the dead have nothing left but honor.

No no no no no.

They died because they were black and he was a racist. Period. None of this madman would've found another reason or another church or whatever distraction. This wasn't a one-size-fits-all killing. He had a planned agenda. The flag (as well as others signifying his belief structure) gave him agency for his actions. That is what all flags do, as a symbol. Putting the flag on coffee mugs with a soundbite phrase underneath — "Proud Dixie Mama" or whatever — doesn't erase legacy.

I was already of a mind about the flag way way way waaaay before their murders, though. That's the beauty of being educated, knowing history and seeing the verity of the world.

If we want to properly honor those soldiers who fought for it or under it and died for whatever noble reason they thought they had to uphold a institution made to create wealth through human chattel and genocide, then we can put that flag and its relevant history in a museum where it belongs. I'm pretty sure the "honor" of those soldiers aren't being served in the here and now by having the flag on coffee mugs and crotch areas on printed underwear.
 
It didn't, but now it does. Just because something starts off without much meaning doesn't mean that it doesn't gain meaning. To be frank it should have been flying before. So just because something stupid caused something to be fixed is irrelevant.

Yes, it did.
 
A guy I work with told me that he knew four black guys that had the Stars and Bars flying in their front yards.

They be "Southerners" first.
 
Interesting facts about the Confederate Battle Flag.


The flag that is causing such a furor was not “the Confederate flag,” as so many news reports have described it. It was a military flag, originally square in form, designed by William Porcher Miles, an aide to General P.G.T. Beauregard, after the first Battle of Manassas, because Beauregard thought that the Confederate national flag, which had a circle of white stars in a blue canton and three broad stripes, red, white, and red, was too easily confused with the Union flag in the smoke of battle. Miles’s battle flag was never approved by the Confederate Congress and never adopted as a national flag. It never flew over Confederate government offices, or over the Capitol at Richmond.

Dixie-publicans can't even get the flag right!
 
A guy I work with told me that he knew four black guys that had the Stars and Bars flying in their front yards.

They be "Southerners" first.

I wonder what other white southerners who are proud flagbearers see them as first.

How is not cool to fly the Isis flag or the imperial japanese flag or any other enemy flag for that matter over government buildings but cool to fly the stars and bars, they're both are/were enemies of the U.S. That's crazy. Any proud white southerner would be pissed if he saw a japanese imperial flag fly over murican public property, but really there isn't much difference.
 
Last edited:
I wonder what other white southerners who are proud flagbearers see them as first.

Probably depends on your flagbearer, everybody I knew who was that type of Southerner I knew in the military. So they thought of them as Marines, and would have died for them or the reverse. Being proud of the South, does not make you a racist. Period.

Now there are racists who use that flag as a symbol, but it's just a flag, only a symbol.

How is not cool to fly the Isis flag or the imperial japanese flag or any other enemy flag for that matter over government buildings but cool to fly the stars and bars, they're both are/were enemies of the U.S. That's crazy. Any proud white southerner would be pissed if he saw a japanese imperial flag fly over murican public property, but really there isn't much difference.

Former Imperial Japan isn't part of the US now, the former Confederate States are... That makes things infinitely more complicated. And that is a HUGE fucking difference.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Represented slavery from the get go. Traitor flag imho.

Slavery was law of the land before and after the CSA. Lincolns Emancipation Proclamation annoyed most people in the North, and it was illegal to do because Dred Scott made it untouchable. Imagine a President declaring abortion illegal. He cant.

My family emancipated its slaves before the war but 25 years after the war still gave some of them room and board because the ex-slaves were indigent and disabled. An inlaw gave his old slaves 40 acres and a team of mules they could lease to sharecroppers for an income.
 
Interesting facts about the Confederate Battle Flag.





Dixie-publicans can't even get the flag right!

The current flag was part of a flag that was mostly white.


http://www.loeser.us/flags/civil.html


Second Confederate National Flag
Although popular legend states that because the pattern and colors of the Stars and Bars flag did not distinguish it sharply from the Stars and Stripes of the Union, it sometimes led to confusion on the battlefield. So the legend states it was decided to design a new flag for the Confederate States that was in no way similar to the Union's Stars and Stripes. However, the real reason this flag was designed had nothing to do with the U.S. flag. It had more to do with the Confederate Congress seeking a more "Confederate" flag, to honor the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and to replace the First National Flag which had split feelings in the South.

Therefore, on May 1, 1863, a second design was adopted, using the "Southern Cross" Battle Flag as the canton on a simple white field. This second design was sometimes called "the Stainless Banner" and is sometimes referred to as the "Stonewall Jackson Flag" because its first use was to cover Stonewall Jackson's coffin at his funeral. The nickname "stainless" referred to the pure white field. This design was also used as the Confederate Naval Ensign between 1863-1865.
 
Last edited:
Casus Belli

Lest there be any doubt. It's long, and has words....lots of words, and facts and stuff, so ya'll prolly won't read it.......but

Lit doesn't like the link. It from the Zinn Education Project.

The horrific events in Charleston, South Carolina have ignited renewed debate about the Confederate battle flag that flies at South Carolina’s capitol building in Columbia. It’s an opportunity for educators to revisit the nature of the Confederacy that the flag represented. As Ta-Nehisi Coates points out in this article, originally published by The Atlantic, the secession of Southern states was triggered by one thing: the desperate quest to preserve slavery. So often, textbooks have repeated the propaganda of Confederate apologists: “The Civil War was fought to preserve states rights.” Oh, really? Where was this love for states rights when the South demanded strict enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act, so that Northern states could not become a haven for people escaping slavery?

Coates returns us to the documents that articulated the “Cause” of the Confederacy. From the moment in December of 1860 when South Carolina became the first state to secede from the Union to the post-war terror of the Ku Klux Klan to the era of Jim Crow to today’s voter-suppression efforts, the Confederate flag has stood for white supremacy. Coates’ article—clear and hard-hitting—is a good place for educators to begin rethinking the meaning of this symbol of domination.

By Ta-Nehisi Coates
From The Atlantic Monthly, June 22, 2015

This afternoon, in announcing her support for removing the Confederate flag from the capitol grounds, South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley asserted that killer Dylann Roof had “a sick and twisted view of the flag” which did not reflect “the people in our state who respect and in many ways revere it.” If the governor meant that very few of the flag’s supporters believe in mass murder, she is surely right. But on the question of whose view of the Confederate Flag is more twisted, she is almost certainly wrong.Roof’s belief that black life had no purpose beyond subjugation is “sick and twisted” in the exact same manner as the beliefs of those who created the Confederate flag were “sick and twisted.” The Confederate flag is directly tied to the Confederate cause, and the Confederate cause was white supremacy. This claim is not the result of revisionism. It does not require reading between the lines. It is the plain meaning of the words of those who bore the Confederate flag across history. These words must never be forgotten. Over the next few months the word “heritage” will be repeatedly invoked. It would be derelict to not examine the exact contents of that heritage.

This examination should begin in South Carolina, the site of our present and past catastrophe. South Carolina was the first state to secede, two months after the election of Abraham Lincoln. It was in South Carolina that the Civil War began, when the Confederacy fired on Fort Sumter. The state’s casus belli was neither vague nor hard to comprehend:

…A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

In citing slavery, South Carolina was less an outlier than a leader, setting the tone for other states, including Mississippi:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…

Louisiana:

As a separate republic, Louisiana remembers too well the whisperings of European diplomacy for the abolition of slavery in the times of an*nexation not to be apprehensive of bolder demonstrations from the same quarter and the North in this country. The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery.

Alabama:

Upon the principles then announced by Mr. Lincoln and his leading friends, we are bound to expect his administration to be conducted. Hence it is, that in high places, among the Republi*can party, the election of Mr. Lincoln is hailed, not simply as it change of Administration, but as the inauguration of new princi*ples, and a new theory of Government, and even as the downfall of slavery. Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans.

Texas:

…in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states….

None of this was new. In 1858, the eventual president of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis threatened secession should a Republican be elected to the presidency:

I say to you here as I have said to the Democracy of New York, if it should ever come to pass that the Constitution shall be perverted to the destruction of our rights so that we shall have the mere right as a feeble minority unprotected by the barrier of the Constitution to give an ineffectual negative vote in the Halls of Congress, we shall then bear to the federal government the relation our colonial fathers did to the British crown, and if we are worthy of our lineage we will in that event redeem our rights even if it be through the process of revolution.

It is difficult for modern Americans to understand such militant commitment to the bondage of others. But at $3.5 billion, the four million enslaved African Americans in the South represented the country’s greatest financial asset. And the dollar amount does not hint at the force of enslavement as a social institution. By the onset of the Civil War, Southern slaveholders believed that African slavery was one of the great organizing institutions in world history, superior to the “free society” of the North.
 
Last edited:
Churches are burning, across the Southern states, and South Carolina is hosting the Klux Klux Klan, this July.

Quite the temper tantrum. The Confederate flag flying truck brigade could not leave the protesters alone.

The major media outlets must be leaping for joy. No cell phone footage of trucks stopping in the middle of the road to harass Confederate flag protesters ?
 
Fight at South Carolina Statehouse over Confederate flag debate Argument breaks out SC Statehouse"

on youtube
 
And you aren't from the South, neither am I. We don't get to tell them what their symbol means. Period. We can be offended by it, we can dislike it. But we should not take the flag that men died for away from them. Never.

So you're advocating that we fly the Union Jack at places like Saratoga, Yorktown, and New Orleans? I mean, men DIED for their flag.
 
Are the war dead buried there? If so, yes.

We're not talking about cemeteries or burial places. We're talking flying the Confed rag at state capitals, for no other reasons as I've stated before. It has NOTHING to do with honoring the dead.
 
We're not talking about cemeteries or burial places. We're talking flying the Confed rag at state capitals, for no other reasons as I've stated before. It has NOTHING to do with honoring the dead.

They're talking about the one at Arlington (or at least that's the one I'm talking about), that's the one that was removed. If you're talking flying it at State Capitals, then it's a touchier issue. And it would depend to me completely on why they were flying it.

There are a lot of different conversations going on here, the one people were largely protesting was at the confederate war memorial in Arlington, where I think it should remain. State Capitals, I'd have to hear their reasoning.

Edit: The Flag is also NEXT TO the State Capital, which is what is causing a lot of the uproar, since the media tends to mention that fact, but not the other.
 
Last edited:
They're talking about the one at Arlington (or at least that's the one I'm talking about), that's the one that was removed. If you're talking flying it at State Capitals, then it's a touchier issue. And it would depend to me completely on why they were flying it.

There are a lot of different conversations going on here, the one people were largely protesting was at the confederate war memorial in Arlington, where I think it should remain. State Capitals, I'd have to hear their reasoning.

Edit: The Flag is also NEXT TO the State Capital, which is what is causing a lot of the uproar, since the media tends to mention that fact, but not the other.

No, it flies in the state CAPITAL, the city. The CAPITOL is the building!

And as for the flag over plots of Confed soldiers, why? They were recognized as Americans after the war, alive and dead!
 
No, it flies in the state CAPITAL, the city. The CAPITOL is the building!

There's more than one flag being discussed here then. I'd have to know the reasons why that flag is there to say if I think it should be there or not. And what they intend it to symbolize.

And as for the flag over plots of Confed soldiers, why? They were recognized as Americans after the war, alive and dead!

Because that's what they fought for. Even if I disagree with it. And that matters, it matters a lot more than you might think. If they're US Soldiers, then the flag they fought for is a US flag, period. And it should honor them, which is all the ones at the memorials are doing.
 
Homewa I think it's time to give it up. You're going down faster than slavery and that dang flag.
 
Homewa I think it's time to give it up. You're going down faster than slavery and that dang flag.

I don't fly the confederate flag, nor do I salute it... But I still thing the people that died for it should have it.

Edit: Also Slavery lasted for over one hundred years, which is pretty decent as far as things go.
 
Last edited:
Because that's what they fought for. Even if I disagree with it. And that matters, it matters a lot more than you might think. If they're US Soldiers, then the flag they fought for is a US flag, period. And it should honor them, which is all the ones at the memorials are doing.

No...they were fucking traitors by every known definition of the term. Had they won they would be PATRIOTS!! But they didn't so traitorous scum it is....sucks to be losers.
 
Back
Top