Bflag's Pleasures of Criticism

todski28 said:

Interested to see some thoughts on this, I know it needs work but not sure where or what to shuffle about or if it's worth keeping.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=59070579&postcount=69

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Whether to keep it depends on your purpose behind the piece. Is it more than just sharing the image, the memory? If not, I'd leave it be. If so, the purpose would give both you and critics/reviewers a direction to hone in on.

It does have some great imagery and it feels to me like the end is just the beginning of the point. Which for me would be that the worst part of the entire thing is the subsumed will/mind. Mental vs physical damage.

bflagsst said:

If anyone wants feedback(criticism) of poems they're working on past or future, post them here and I'll hit them with the hammer of the idol and/or massage your ego into the twilight. There have been other threads with similar intention, but they faded because no one really wanted to be a constant critic of their peers; well I find pleasure in it so I will.

I promise to respond to every posted poem within a week, unless I forget that I made this thread. And I promise to respond to every criticism that criticized my initial criticism within two weeks from the date of my initial criticism.

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bflagsst said:

Doggerel and topical poems are a really difficult form and often completely uninteresting, unfunny.

My good friend is getting married next week and his wife asked me to write them a poem and recite it at the ceremony. I tried a few different techniques, tried directly talking about their biography, gave up on that cuz too hacky. Then I tried making it a more general love poem that basically said nothing about them and thought it would be a waste of their time for me to get up and just kind of promote my own poetry at their once-in-a-lifetime event.

Anyway, I'm declining my recitation with a new appreciation of all these poet laureates who go around giving occasion/celebration/inauguration poems. You should really consider whether or not you're going to be known as a doggerel text box poet, because even they have to work at it.

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I'm not fucking interested in your good friend getting married or any other of your stories. Your purpose was to criticize, not to label, and I didn't see it working. It seems to me you bite more than you can chew and... I've lost interest in your thread.
c u round.

pelegrino said:

I'm not fucking interested in your good friend getting married or any other of your stories. Your purpose was to criticize, not to label, and I didn't see it working. It seems to me you bite more than you can chew and... I've lost interest in your thread.
c u round.

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Pellegrino, you posted a turd in my thread as to bait me so you got a polished turd re:. Later.

bflagsst said:

Pellegrino, you posted a turd in my thread as to bait me so you got a polished turd re:. Later.

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Is that all the criticism you can offer me? I am not after baiting anyone in here, I only appreciate help given from well meaning persons. A turd is not a turd until it is proven a turd by seriously considering the case first. Can you do serious criticism? Do you know what's all about? Have you read any professionals? Please do us all a favor and don't bother us with bullshit anymore.
At least don't bother me. Good buy.

pelegrino said:

Is that all the criticism you can offer me? I am not after baiting anyone in here, I only appreciate help given from well meaning persons. A turd is not a turd until it is proven a turd by seriously considering the case first. Can you do serious criticism? Do you know what's all about? Have you read any professionals? Please do us all a favor and don't bother us with bullshit anymore.
At least don't bother me. Good buy.

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So you can spend two minutes on doggerel and you expect me to spend more than thirty seconds on a reply to it? Son, youngster, I've spent days poring over word order on single lines.

bflagsst said:

So you can spend two minutes on doggerel and you expect me to spend more than thirty seconds on a reply to it? Son, youngster, I've spent days poring over word order on single lines.

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piker, I spend 6 weeks on three lines, ahem

now, let's get to the heart of the matter, how much time would you estimate Demure spends, GM, Tzara, etc. any of the better poets? I once posted a link, I think it was to Brad Leithauser - 45 minutes for a poem if you are doing something relatively rote. It doesn't take long, part template, part automatic.

Why is this doggerel?

bflagsst said:

So you can spend two minutes on doggerel and you expect me to spend more than thirty seconds on a reply to it? Son, youngster, I've spent days poring over word order on single lines.

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This question is inane!
First, how do you know how much time I spent thinking over Koba's problem.
Second, When I write (you can't doubt it) I am as fast as light.
Third, If you purpose to be a critic, then yes, I expect you to spend your life on it, never mind thirty seconds. If you don't take your role seriously how do you expect me to take you seriously?
Sorry for not been obedient, dad(!)

twelveoone said:

re: pelegrino's
"Doggerel and topical poems are a really difficult form and often completely uninteresting, unfunny."
Is this the extent? Why is it (if it is) uninteresting and unfunny? Did I miss something? As I found it to be both interesting and at least moderately funny but then "Context is King" at least on a transient basis. And what isn't transient?

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pelegrino said:

Is that all the criticism you can offer me? I am not after baiting anyone in here, I only appreciate help given from well meaning persons. A turd is not a turd until it is proven a turd by seriously considering the case first. Can you do serious criticism? Do you know what's all about? Have you read any professionals? Please do us all a favor and don't bother us with bullshit anymore.
At least don't bother me. Good buy.

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For a moment I thought you people were going to spoil the fun with your questions about reasons, but this is actually better. Thank you.

pelegrino said:

This question is inane!
First, how do you know how much time I spent thinking over Koba's problem.
Second, When I write (you can't doubt it) I am as fast as light.
Third, If you purpose to be a critic, then yes, I expect you to spend your life on it, never mind thirty seconds. If you don't take your role seriously how do you expect me to take you seriously?
Sorry for not been obedient, dad(!)

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You don't have to take me seriously, and you don't have to post in my thread. Though it's pretty silly to act like you didn't spend minutes writing that poem. As if you've spent days thinking about Koba's issue when he first posted his thread this morning.

Bro, post a poem you spent more than a few minutes on and you'll get valuable feedback. I don't know any of your actual poems, my default at this point is that you're just a shit poet who spends minutes writing jokes on this message board. That's even better than my default on Tsothar. As far as I know he's just another pensivepoet who has never contributed a poem to this website.

bflagsst said:

You don't have to take me seriously, and you don't have to post in my thread. Though it's pretty silly to act like you didn't spend minutes writing that poem. As if you've spent days thinking about Koba's issue when he first posted his thread this morning.

Bro, post a poem you spent more than a few minutes on and you'll get valuable feedback. I don't know any of your actual poems, my default at this point is that you're just a shit poet who spends minutes writing jokes on this message board. That's even better than my default on Tsothar. As far as I know he's just another pensivepoet who has never contributed a poem to this website.

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You're absolutely correct.

Tsotha said:

You're absolutely correct.

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you are fucking brutal
hats off!

twelveoone said:

piker, I spend 6 weeks on three lines, ahem

now, let's get to the heart of the matter, how much time would you estimate Demure spends, GM, Tzara, etc. any of the better poets? I once posted a link, I think it was to Brad Leithauser - 45 minutes for a poem if you are doing something relatively rote. It doesn't take long, part template, part automatic.

Why is this doggerel?

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Doggerel is comically amusing or it is throwaway garbage. It's either offensively comic, or wholly inoffensive and uninteresting. What interests you about the poem as posted?

bflagsst said:

You don't have to take me seriously, and you don't have to post in my thread. Though it's pretty silly to act like you didn't spend minutes writing that poem. As if you've spent days thinking about Koba's issue when he first posted his thread this morning.

Bro, post a poem you spent more than a few minutes on and you'll get valuable feedback. I don't know any of your actual poems, my default at this point is that you're just a shit poet who spends minutes writing jokes on this message board. That's even better than my default on Tsothar. As far as I know he's just another pensivepoet who has never contributed a poem to this website.

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Ok, bflagsst, I'm bored.
I don't act as if I've spend days, where did I say that? I said that I am as fast as light when I write and now that you mentioned it (in the rare occasions) when I'm thinking I'm equally fast . I'm not a shit poet cause I'm not a poet at all (but sometimes people think that I write good poems/ verses, at least).
I'm not trying to prove anything here, I only sympathized with Koba's problem, and I do realize that as a critic you must have a default. Good luck with it!

bflagsst said:

Doggerel is comically amusing or it is throwaway garbage. It's either offensively comic, or wholly inoffensive and uninteresting. What interests you about the poem as posted?

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I do not think it is that deep, but I think it is poetry, I know doggerel, I write enough of it, that asks a question. The question posed is of interest.

1201, don't derail my thread I have to keep on task.

I have to

a.) Discover who the poet of one poem is like the sleuth I truly am.

b.) Re-post Foehn's poem as example of oddity.

bflagsst said:

1201, don't derail my thread I have to keep on task.

I have to

a.) Discover who the poet of one poem is like the sleuth I truly am.

b.) Re-post Foehn's poem as example of oddity.

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ok, but is A is tsotha he has a thread somewhere, where he complied all the suggestions received, weighed them, and submitted a finished poem, that is a work of art in itself.

This poem is just a step into cloying sentimentality that works really well save for a few missteps of phrasing and a near complete disregard for any poetic tool or tradition. If you think you're writing a poem outside of any tradition you probably aren't, fucking Foehn has done it though.

You read this poem and it's something written for someone else who actually exists or has existed and you believe in a zealotry for horses and for the narrator's adoration of Hannah and her complete being in this world. Think about how rare it is to come across a poem that reads like it's actually about real people living real human lives and not just complete fictions interacting.

http://www.literotica.com/p/hanna-loves-horses

Hanna Loves Horses
byfoehn©

We all love something.
Hanna loves horses.

Horses galloping through dust and yucca plants.

Horses trotting on grassy Tennessee slopes.

Horses walking among palmetto palms in Florida.

Hanna loves horses that aren't horses.
She loves them because of what they want to be.
She loves them because of form:
because they are smart, like her,
feeling, like her,
explorers, yet obedient,
like her.

Hanna loves horses. It won't go away.
Last year, tomorrow and today,
the magic word is, "horse."

"Would you like to see?"
she asks the new friend.
And behind that world, behind
the vision of so many
collectibles

are thousands, millions, kazillions
of wild horses, herding themselves
as quickly as possible
into the future and the past…

Ah, the snorts and whinnies
die in the wind, but the thunder
goes on forever



for Hanna 2-15-05 : tm

twelveoone said:

ok, but is A is tsotha he has a thread somewhere, where he complied all the suggestions received, weighed them, and submitted a finished poem, that is a work of art in itself.

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Good, I can criticize that thread and those suggestions and his choices here then.

Tsothar, link me up with that.

bflagsst said:

This poem is just a step into cloying sentimentality that works really well save for a few missteps of phrasing and a near complete disregard for any poetic tool or tradition. If you think you're writing a poem outside of any tradition you probably aren't, fucking Foehn has done it though.

You read this poem and it's something written for someone else who actually exists or has existed and you believe in a zealotry for horses and for the narrator's adoration of Hannah and her complete being in this world. Think about how rare it is to come across a poem that reads like it's actually about real people living real human lives and not just complete fictions interacting.

http://www.literotica.com/p/hanna-loves-horses

Hanna Loves Horses
byfoehn©

We all love something.
Hanna loves horses.

Horses galloping through dust and yucca plants. 1,2, and three

Horses trotting on grassy Tennessee slopes.

Horses walking among palmetto palms in Florida.

Hanna loves horses that aren't horses.
She loves them because of what they want to be. 1 and 2
She loves them because of form:
because they are smart, like her,
feeling, like her,
explorers, yet obedient,
like her.

Hanna loves horses. It won't go away.
Last year, tomorrow and today,
the magic word is, "horse."

"Would you like to see?"
she asks the new friend.
And behind that world, behind
the vision of so many
collectibles

are thousands, millions, kazillions
of wild horses, herding themselves
as quickly as possible
into the future and the past…

Ah, the snorts and whinnies
die in the wind, but the thunder
goes on forever



for Hanna 2-15-05 : tm

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huh? Free verse

what is unusual is this
Hanna loves horses that aren't horses. if the other two are an encasement, and this is in the negative.

twelveoone said:

ok, but is A is tsotha he has a thread somewhere, where he complied all the suggestions received, weighed them, and submitted a finished poem, that is a work of art in itself.

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I was going to say 'well I spent three months on a poem!', but it sounded childish.

bflagsst said:

Good, I can criticize that thread and those suggestions and his choices here then.

Tsothar, link me up with that.

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Oh, don't bother. I'm an idiot, I'd never understand you anyway.

twelveoone said:

huh? Free verse

what is unusual is this
Hanna loves horses that aren't horses. if the other two are an encasement, and this is in the negative.

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It's some heavy stuff, man. Foehn is giving us a theory of ideas, it's a description of platonic realism coupled with the availability of interpersonal love, zealotry, adulation.

twelveoone said:

huh? Free verse

what is unusual is this
Hanna loves horses that aren't horses. if the other two are an encasement, and this is in the negative.

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btw you see all the repts
like her, 3x, etc.
foehn was very good and to bore you with personal history was critical of a piece I wrote, that was well received. he was right, and worse looking at it, holes all over the place and a plagiarism. poem yanked and trashed, and it probably was the last time I submitted anything without edit.

Now are you going to do more with this?

bflagsst said:

It's some heavy stuff, man. Foehn is giving us a theory of ideas, it's a description of platonic realism coupled with the availability of interpersonal love, zealotry, adulation.

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I'm looking at the structure, where he is placing the reps the keys, but this is pretty standard to me.

Hanna loves horses that aren't horses.
is the anomaly, double centered.
I am good at what I do, and foehn is easy, nothing really that out, largely because he is a good writer.

a child's wish twarted.

Focus on the patterns of twos and threes
and he has a diminishing cascade at the end

Now read the poem, he isn't wasting much space, everything is pretty much where it should be. He has another pattern "a lost pattern" or a juxtaposition.
Last year, tomorrow and today,...
into the future and the past…

future is a risk move

Ah, the snorts and whinnies
die in the wind, but the thunder
goes on forever