Come out to my children

This is always a tough one, but one thing to keep in mind is that while well meaning, many people think kids are made out of 200 year old glass that will break if you blow on it...and they aren't. To be honest, I think your kids will have a hard time if you are in a new relationship, male or female, because they have gone through a divorce, and in many ways I suspect that may be a bigger issue then the fact you are seeing another woman. They may use the fact that she is a woman as an excuse to try and wreck your relationship, but a lot of it could well be being with anyone. I obviously don't know where you are with the divorce, did it happen recently, did it happen a while ago, and that could matter.

And yes, it can be difficult on kids when their parent is different, I have seen this one and experienced it, both with gay parents, parents where one or the other ends up with a same sex partner, and transgender people with children, and in the end, the funny part is the kids usually end up okay, as tough as it can get. People can be cruel, it is ironic that the only place where the kids who have parents who are same sex or have a parent who ends up in a same sex marriage is the cruelty from other assholes who make their lives difficult, it is ironic that many of the 'traditional family values' try to create a self fulfilling prophecy, in that they see no problem in making the lives of kids of LGBT parents tough, then try to claim being the children of gay parents hurts them, when it is assholes like themselves who hurt them.

Okay, so back to the OP's original question, I tend to agree with others, I think one of the keys is being sure of yourself, that if/when you 'come out' as being with another woman, you are comfortable with it. I am not talking when you are together with your sweetie, but being comfortable deep down that you are okay with it, you don't find it weird, and can deal with it if other people, whether it is your ex or others, get nasty. Kids care about what others think, but they care more about their parent, and they tend to pick up, not what we say, but what we project. The parent who tells their kid they are colorblind but then when they meet someone who is black tense up, or act differently, the kids will pick it up. I really encourage you to work with an LGBT friendly counselor, to work on being comfortable yourself and in how to come out to the kids. Actually, I would probably tell you to find a counselor even if it was a guy, to deal with the kids and their feelings, it isn't all that much different.

In terms of telling the kids, one of the biggest mistakes people make IMO is over doing it, insisting on telling every detail. If you have a girlfriend you are serious about (and I note she said she loved you, but how do you feel about her, OP? If you aren't certain of your feelings for her, that it is strongly reciprocated, I wouldn't tell at this point). I don't like the idea of saying she is a friend, kids aren't stupid and they pick up the clues, they will know long before you tell them if you do that IMO, and will probably be more resentful you wouldn't tell them. But don't belabor it, either, it is okay to say you and X are dating, that you have strong feelings with her, and leave it at that. You don't need to bring up labels, to be honest, they don't matter, you don't have to tell them "I am lesbian' or 'I am bi', it isn't valuable to do so, simply tell them you have someone you are seeing and they are special to you, period.They may have questions, they may ask how long you have known her, they may ask if you plan to live together (which, to be honest, I would tell them not for the forseeable future, you have enough to deal with). You can also reassure them that while there is nothing shameful about your relationship, that you also don't plan on making a big deal about it, that eventually people will know,but you plan on being low key. Obviously, a lot of this depends where you live, if you were in San Francisco or Park Slope, Brooklyn or Portland Oregon it would be a no brainer, if you live in South Boston, Alabama (if there is such a place), might be different. I also would check with a lawyer, to make sure you don't live in one of the garden spots, like Alabama and some other places in the hookworm belt, where your husband could try and get custody of the minor child and with a good chance of winning simply because you are with a woman, that would be wise IMO.

But like I said, in the end things usually work out well. If you and your kids have a good relationship, if you have good communication and such, it will be fine. A friend of mine transitioned (M to F) with two teenage boys, in a fairly conservative suburb of NYC, and she did fine with them, her boys faced it pretty well, and surprisingly, the other kids rallied around the sons, and their house was a pretty popular place to hang out...so it happens. I had my own coming out process before I stopped transition, and I can tell you there will be people who will give you and your kids a hard time, but a lot of people are going to surprise you. If your husband gets wind and is negative about it, don't let him give you shit about it, he has no right to decide what you do. This is where a therapist comes in, they will be able to help you with that, how to deal with the husband, etc. In terms of the legal issues, there are LGBT legal resources all over the country who can help if push comes to shove, so even that doesn't have to be scary.

What it all boils down to,to summarize is if this relationship is serious and you are comfortable it is, the rest probably will fall into place, and I can assure you that coming from this place of strength, your kids will be fine, they are resilient and if they see you are happy and comfortable, they will adjust. It can be rocky, always is with teenagers, but I know a lot of people in your position, gay and trans, and most of them end up okay with their kids in the end.

Cumference said:

I think we actually agree.

I had a vision on my inner eye, of "coming out" turned into an event.
Kids are normally quite cool, and gradual changes, or simply discovering something new about members of their family is nothing special.
The OP is still the same woman, there are just something they have not known previously.

Adults that suddenly want to change a lot of things, are normally a pest from the kids point of view.

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Yep, we agree then. No song and dance required!

Personally I would introduce her as a friend to begin with, and then just let your relationship with her grow into the rest of your lives as you would if you guys were hetero. Maybe let them know you are dating after she has been 'friends' with you for a while and then tell them it is her a little later?

If the ex hasn't turned the kids into homophobes by now, I don't think he will do. And I think it is important for them to see that you are completely ok with being lesbian. I think hiding it in any way is likely to give the impression otherwise. At 16 and 18 they may well be way beyond the age where this can 'confuse' them (I certainly was, and I am not far from 18 now) but they're your kids and you know them best.

As far as whether or not the relationship remains long term - is it not possible that a good example of dating, openly and in a healthy manner might be good for them? I know everyone always says kids need a solid relationship to look up to and I completely understand that but I also think that for them to see that sometimes going in and out of relationships a few times is ok. Sometimes kids feel a lot of pressure to have a perfect working relationship too, and a lot of the time because parents try so hard to show their kids something perfect, loads of kids don't realise what relationships are usually more like until they try it and it doesn't go so well.

I'm not suggesting that strings of partners will be good for the kids, just that you dating and meeting new people needn't necessarily be seen as a negative thing for them.

I've always kind of gone by the idea that just because you broke up, doesn't mean you failed if you enjoyed it at the time, and you should take happiness from that. If they have seen you break up, hurt, and then pick yourself up and look for a better fish in the sea, then that, to me, is a good role model.

And I guess this is why I would be a terrible parent, but as far as other people's potentially prejudiced reactions.... I would just say 'fuck 'em' and keep going. Nobody likes having to fly in the face of prejudiced people, especially not when it might be kids having to face it, but the fact is that if no one did that, the prejudice would remain 'ok'.

-wanders off mumbling.....-

That and you would be a wonderful role model for them for "sometimes your sexuality changes or fluctuates, and that is alright"! When teenagers are trying to figure out stuff like that about themselves there is a hell of a lot of pressure to be sure, which isn't very healthy or conducive towards growing as a person.

I'm assuming since you choose to call yourself a lesbian you're like me. Your romantic emotional feelings are exclusively orientated to other women. Your sexual desire are also orientated to other women but even if you happened to be asexual your orientation is still exclusively to other women.

I'm not trying to pass judgement on your relationship with your girlfriend but 'several months' and declaration of love isn't enough, to come out to your children just yet, IMHO.

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In my not so humble opinion, Cathleen is judging you and her judgment is your being a lesbian isn't the proper behavior for any parent. Come on if you were hetero and you'd been dating a man for several months, especially one who you felt you may be in love with, would she tell you to hide the relationship, of course she wouldn't.

While today's teens are far more accepting of LBGT, I think you need to be very careful in how you approach this. I would treat any new relationship as I would a hetero coupling, that is protect your kids from the details and introductions until you are in a long term, serious relationship. Kids honestly don't want to meet every one of mom or dad's new SO's, unless they are going to be in the picture permanently.

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I'm wondering Sugartitties, do you just have a lack of comprehending what you read or do you not want to except Rose is in a loving relationship with another woman, one which is committed and both want to be long term?

I could go on and on about the comments made to your request. I find it particularly offensive that because you're a lesbian you need a therapist help in coming out to your children. As a matter of fact it's much more likely your children would need the help of a therapist do to your divorce than being honest to them about your orientation.

Your their Mother, you've loved them since before they were born, you've raised them, natured them, taught them values, helped shape their personalities and so much more. They'll not stop loving you just because you happen to be a lesbian! They'll have many question most they won't even know to ask when you first tell them, all you really need to do is talk to them, be honest with them and when they do have questions answer them honestly, even if the answers may be embarrassing.

I think your only mistake was in not coming out to your children before you even started dating other women. The truth is it's dishonest to hide your orientation and your children may very well feel you've been dishonest to them in not revealing such an important part of who you are.

I could go on, I could give you my ideas of how you should handle your coming out but I think you'll get more from reading what children of LGBTQ parents have to say about parent coming out to their children. Tips for “Coming Out” to Your Kids About Your Sexual Orientation.

I hope you realize this is just the first step in coming out, you'll need to come out to your parents, many of your relatives, at least if they're close to you, and your friends. Of course you ex-husband is going to find out, you'll have to deal with him but don't let his feelings or homophobia dictate your life. It's not always easy living in a open same sex relationship but it beats the hell out of living a lie by hiding who you are and whom you love.

My neighbor has the best approach I know of. Her home and car and dog shout I'M QUEER AND I'M HERE! Try it.

Dyslexicea, you're way off-base regarding Cathleen's comments. She is one of the least judgmental, most accepting and fair-minded people I've ever known. I won't put words in her mouth, but I've known her for years, and I'm 100% sure she would give the same advice regarding love and dating to ANY single parent. It's easy to confuse lust and caring with love in any new relationship. Kids of newly separated/divorced partners are usually pretty raw, even when they're older and see it's for the best, so it's good parenting to wait and take great care when introducing new partners.

Regarding counseling, I'm one of the people who suggested that. I believe in helping kids deal with challenges in every healthy way possible. You'd better believe I'd use therapy as a tool to help my child through life-changing events like divorce and a relationship thereafter, if I thought it might help him. Kids typically take things like their parents having a new partner in stride, but sometimes they need an impartial, confidential ear to vent to, some different advice and strategies, to make it through transitions more easily. My own son would likely take something like seeing me in a F/F relationship in stride, but we live in a culturally diverse, fairly liberal area where even his beloved preschool teacher feels comfortable enough to bring her wife to school functions, plus we actively parent on GLBTQ, being proud of who we are, open-minded, differences, etc. However, our son doesn't deal with changes/transitions well in general, so I can absolutely see how therapy could be helpful for him with ANY change or transition.

It sounds like your perception of some of the responses in this thread are colored by the prejudices and cruelness you've been subjected to in the past. If that's the case, I'm sorry some people haven't treated you well, based on who you are; there's no excuse for that.

However, by jumping on the well-intentioned advice of other members (who are most likely LGBTQ members or allies) and basically making accusations vs. asking clarifying questions, you're actually creating a contentious, judgmental environment. I've been a HT regular for many years, and barring the likes of JBJ and similar trolls, HT'ers are some of the most accepting, fair, helpful people I've had the pleasure of interacting with. Hopefully you'll consider that with your next post.

I have values that require me to judge. I don't assume Nazis have hearts of gold.

My parents divorced when I was 12. Trust me, that was a mercy. "Hell" is a good description of what went on before that.

I lie. There were better times too, but generally, they were few and far between.

My mom began dating within a year or so of her divorce. My dad didn't start dating until his youngest (me) was over 18. His basis for that was that kids can't necessarily understand changes in adults lives.

My mom was very care-less about what anybody thought, including her kids.

...that's not completely true, but she did have a hard edge about not letting kids rule the roost.

She started dating one guy who was about 17 years her junior. I heard people talking behind her back when they thought I wasn't hearing it. I was ashamed of what my mom did. In those days, such things didn't happen, but in my family, you don't argue with a parent. Let me correct that, you NEVER argue with a parent.
My older sister was more inclined to be upset with my mom over that because she had aims on that guy.


My dad wasn't a slouch in that regard either, he firmly believed that kids don't rule the roost either, but he believed kids were impressionable and while he NEVER would tolerate me saying anything negative about my mom in front of him (no matter how much he questioned her choices under his breath, (like when she would start discussing 'acts' that they did (mostly he would say "I can't believe she would say that."))) he also was more inclined to try to portray a role that he wished his kids to emulate. My mom didn't care what her kids saw. They would do what was proper in spite of what she did or there would be hell to pay. My dad was more "lead by example."

I was about 14 when she started dating a guy who later would become my stepfather. He sat me down and while he was willing to talk it out, he also said "what you think doesn't mean shit to your mom or me" (not the words he said but definitely the feeling I got). What he had said was more like "Grow up!"

He was a good man (he took care of my mom well enough) and eventually I grew up but those were hard years for me. I was definitely a second class citizen in their household though. For example, on my 18th birthday and for the holidays, they flew off to Europe.

Understand, my mom was one of the "run for her shelter of her mothers little helper" era, with that full meaning. If you don't get that analogy, I'm not explaining beyond saying she wasn't very... stable. My dad 'cared' more, my mom was a better example of love, but it was fleeting.

When my parents divorced, I wanted to go with my dad. He wasn't "easy" by any stretch of the imagination, but I wanted that life. When the courts didn't agree with me, my mom and the judge had me psychoanalyzed because I had shamed the judge.

He asked me; who I wanted to go with?
I said "I loved both my parents, but I want to go with my dad."
He said "well, I know what's better for you, so you're going with your mother."
I looked at him and asked "then why did you ask me?"

In legal matters, this is a big "oopsie!" on his part. Now he had to come up with a reason to validate his decision and he wasn't about to let a 12 year old kid get the better of him in HIS court room.

For that, he asked my mother if it was okay to have me psychoanalyzed which worked with her goals so she whole heartedly back him (against my father's objections).
The end result was they found me incompetent to decide for myself with inconclusive but suggestive words like "tendencies" etc, and the judge thus ordered me to go with my mom.

I'm not saying your kids are anything like me. I grew up differently, during a different era.
Words (paraphrased) that resonate to me:

"Children are more flexible and stronger of mind than you can imagine. They are capable of building empires and fighting wars."

"'Mother' is the name for God on the lips and in the hearts of children."

I'm not saying not to do what you want. Just advising to 'step carefully'. Don't think that it is impossible to ruin the love between you and your children, or with it, to break your children.

Dyslexicea said:

I'm assuming since you choose to call yourself a lesbian you're like me. Your romantic emotional feelings are exclusively orientated to other women. Your sexual desire are also orientated to other women but even if you happened to be asexual your orientation is still exclusively to other women.



In my not so humble opinion, Cathleen is judging you and her judgment is your being a lesbian isn't the proper behavior for any parent. Come on if you were hetero and you'd been dating a man for several months, especially one who you felt you may be in love with, would she tell you to hide the relationship, of course she wouldn't.


<snip>

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You can continue to assume that, Dyslexicea, but you'd be incorrect. If you read the posts I made in the thread you'd see my focus is on the kids. They're the main concern for me.

I have no concern about Rose's sexuality, you have assumed she identifies with you and that's fine. Her kids have only known her as the wife to their father. We don't know if she's divorced yet -- she states they've already been through a lot -- so adding dating partners increases their load, from their mom and/or dad. I still maintain the dad's homophobia is a big issue, especially for Rose's daughter, as she states they're close.

People are parents, not our sexuality.

The experience LWulf shares illustrates the direction from which I'm coming on this issue. The kids come first -- in my everlasting opinion.

To Erika, thank you my friend. I'm humbled by your words.

Cathleen said:

The experience LWulf shares illustrates the direction from which I'm coming on this issue. The kids come first -- in my everlasting opinion.

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Thanks for seeing the point that I was getting at. I hate regurgitating those years of my life, but if it helps for someone else to understand by stating a bad example...

Your point was abundantly clear, at least to me, but I think to anyone reading it.

I'm sorry it was that way for you.

Put a billboard on the front lawn.

JAMESBJOHNSON said:

Put a billboard on the front lawn.

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Indeed.

Cathleen said:

You can continue to assume that, Dyslexicea, but you'd be incorrect. If you read the posts I made in the thread you'd see my focus is on the kids. They're the main concern for me.

I have no concern about Rose's sexuality, you have assumed she identifies with you and that's fine. Her kids have only known her as the wife to their father. We don't know if she's divorced yet -- she states they've already been through a lot -- so adding dating partners increases their load, from their mom and/or dad. I still maintain the dad's homophobia is a big issue, especially for Rose's daughter, as she states they're close.

People are parents, not our sexuality.

The experience LWulf shares illustrates the direction from which I'm coming on this issue. The kids come first -- in my everlasting opinion.

To Erika, thank you my friend. I'm humbled by your words.

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After rereading what follows I'm adding this to the top of my post. Please do not take the following as an attack on you as a person, it is not my intend. I can at times come off rather harsh, even caustic but when I believe strongly in something I'm not one to mince words. The fact that I responded to your first post and am responding to this one is in fact a compliment. I don't agree with you and I did see judgment, but not hate or intentional homophobia, in your first post. I also saw intelligence and a real concern, it's just that I don't agree with your view. I'll occasionally respond to some jackass but for the most part I don't and I don't consider you one of those.

But what you seem to be assuming, Cathleen, is that Rose's orientation is somehow going to have a negative impact on her children. In short she's not Heteronormative and her children should not have to face the reality that she isn't. Maybe you assume she doesn't know her own mind and she'll change her orientation, of course that is possible but I tend to take her at her word and at least from her posts here I don't think that is likely to happen.

Your claim that her ex's homophobia should play a part in her revealing herself to her children is in my opinion is not valid. The only circumstances in which I would tell Rose to wait is if her divorce in not final and she's living in one of our conservative homophobic states as it could cost her custody of her children and if that is the case, I also would have recommended she not date but I'm sure she's capable of making her own decisions in that respect.

If she does as you and LWulf seem to be advocating, hide her true nature, does not date, stay out of relationships and stays celibate until her children are adults, she is in effect enforcing her ex-husband's hateful views. She'll end up with two homophobic grown children who'll want nothing to do with their lesbian mother, at least if she ever does come out of the closet and lives the life she deserves.

I do know a lot about divorce and sighting LWulf experience as typical is a mistake. First off we are speaking of a very bitter divorce, and I mean bitter, in the vast majority of divorces, even most of those where the parents seem to hate each other, child custody is agreed to by the parents and almost always approved by the judge, only when the parents can't agree does the judge make the decision, which is also the case when it comes to child support(most of the time set by state guide lines), spousal support(very rare) and property settlements.

To equate LWulf's situation as normal or his parents actions as normal is a real stretch. First off I don't know any woman, married or divorced, who would talk graphically to their children about her own sexual activities, maybe I'm just lucky, and I do sympathize with LWulf for having such a person as his mother.

I find LWulf's father's actions equally appalling, not only was he denying himself one of the most meaningful relationships a human can have but he was denying his children the chance of having a normal and loving woman in his children's lives, one who could have helped to counteract some of the negative influences of his mother's, not only as his mother but the negative impression about all women her actions unquestionably had on LWulf's feelings and beliefs about us.

I do grant that a divorced woman with children needs to be very careful about the men and women, especially men, she allows into her child's life but I don't believe it healthy for her children to believe life, love and desire stops just because of a divorce. Life does go on and human relationships are a very important part of it, not just our own but the relationships of those who are closes to us. A good loving relationship for either their divorced mother(in our case mothers if we were to divorce) or father is not detrimental to a child's development just the opposite has been shown to be true.

In so many other respect you are wrong, Rose, like most divorced women and men, is not going to live as a celibate, seeking to deny herself adult relationships both emotionally and sexually. Rose is dating, in her case she has a relationship, people are going to realize her relationship is with a woman and tongues do wag, especially when the couple is same sex. Her children are going to find out, hopefully not from their father, which could be a disaster, but they are going to find out. Not only is it unfair for her children to find out from others, it's also going to reinforce their father's homophobic believes because by not telling them she'll be indirectly telling them her being a lesbian is something to be ashamed of. Children face enough homophobic bullshit as it is, they don't need it amplified by thinking their own mother is ashamed of who she is.

What kind of relationship is she going to have with her two children who may be ashamed of her just because they'll have that impression from her?

You speak of being concerned with children, that is commendable. If you think my only concern is for Rose, your wrong. I am no less concerned for the well being of children, including Rose's, than you are, not only because I have children but I've been active with helping LGBT youth since I was barely more than a youth myself. I also volunteer my services for two nonprofits which are trying desperately to raise single mothers and their children out of poverty. The truth is you should be much more concerned with Rose's financial well being and the effect it may have on her children than with Rose being honest with her children about her orientation.

You can't have love without trust and honesty and right now Rose is not being honest with her children, something she asked help in rectifying. I vehemently disagree with you that Rose should continue to hide, in doing so she risk losing both their trust and their love.

To you Rose, as a mother and as a lesbian, obviously my opinion is you need to come out to your children!

As for your girlfriend, if you are sure she's the one, you need to slowly integrate her into your family life but, I sometime hate that word, you need to be very mindful of how your children are reacting. As much as I believe in love and loving relationships if your children can't or won't except her you have to be willing to keep your relationship apart from your family and most likely that well be the end of the relationship. I may not agree with Cathleen about your coming out but I'm in total agreement that your children need to come first and you do what is best for them no matter how much personal pain that causes you.

I do hope everything works out and you four can have a happy loving life together.

Dyslexicea, never once did I say she should not come out to her children. She asked for suggestions about coming out and mine was to consult with a therapist before she utter a word. Not that she shouldn't find love, not that she doesn't deserve love, not to deny anything. Just that I believe she might get some help from professionals on the matter.

Rose does not label herself as hetero or homosexual. She identifies herself as a mother. You keep reading into my words that somehow I believe homosexuality is wrong, or homosexuals should not or are not capable of being good parents. You're reading me wrong -- very wrong. Your assumption is wrong. I can't state it again or any other way.

You're a very sure of yourself as a lesbian woman and I'm glad (I wish all people could be as sure of their whole self), but this is new to Rose -- it would seem. She hasn't confirmed a lot of what is being assumed.

I know I've said enough now. I didn't take your above thoughts as an attack, but thanks for stating it nonetheless. I hope you know I'm not attacking you either.

The children come first. Period.

For those of you out there that can't imagine having a mother like LWulf's, let me just confirm that it is even worse that what he wrote. My mother absolutely ruined me because of her behavior, both before and after my parents divorce. I was 16 at the time they split and the fallout from it fucked up a lot of opportunities that I could have taken advantage of if I hadn't been so utterly lost and confused and angry at the time I was forced to enter my first year of college because my parents thought I should have been able to handle having my life turned upside down during my senior year in high school and move on with my life accordingly.

Looking back, I am so damn bitter because I feel like they cut me off right at the knees at the time when I was trying my hardest to gather enough strength to jump out of the nest. Maybe I'm just a lot more sensitive than others, but seeing both of my parents turn into two completely different people that I didn't recognize caused a major identity crisis.

As far as the OP's issue, from the perspective of the child, I know that if it were me, I would be wondering why the hell you ever married their dad in the first place. To me, I would feel like my entire childhood was a mistake because you were living a lie and lying to me and everyone else the whole time. I wouldn't even know who you were anymore and it would cause major trust issues.

Let me make this clear - regardless of what anyone else says, your happiness does not come before your children's well-being and stability. Think about the time in their lives when all of this is happening. Do they really need any more fucking stress just because Mommy suddenly 'found' herself? Be prepared if you do come out, because I guarantee you it will not be pleasant for anyone. You simply haven't given it or them enough time to adjust since you broke up with your husband. Give them time to mend and establish themselves as people outside of the family before you shake things up on them.

You should also ask yourself what you're going to do if they outright disown you, because that is a distinct possibility that no one on this forum seems to want to acknowledge. For one thing, your kids don't owe you understanding. They don't owe you a damn thing because they didn't ask to be born in the first place. You gave birth to them in a heterosexual household and raised to believe that that was who you were and what you wanted. You lied, plain and simple. If they hate you for it, well, that's what happens when you abuse your children's love and trust.

Now, if you're just a late in life bisexual, then I wouldn't tell them a damn thing about your new relationship because you yourself probably haven't even adjusted enough to understand yourself in your new sexual identity. If you aren't yet comfortable with it, no one else will be either. That being said, if you are comfortable with it, don't be an asshole. Don't have the attitude of, "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it", because they will get used it to it by having nothing to do with you anymore. Do not dismiss your children's feelings. Even if they are homophobic, consider the source and don't argue with them about it. They will adjust there own attitudes over time, but on their schedule, not your's or society's. Both of my parents are homophobes, and it took me a long time to reorient my own beliefs as I discovered things about my own sexuality. It may take quite a while for your children to do the same, and you need to think about that. Ultimately, you can approach this apolegetically without selling out your identity. You do have something to apologize for - misleading your children about who you are. But over time, if you don't throw it in their face and challenge them with your new lifestyle, if you make yourself available to them without begging for their approval and let them decide how they want to deal with you, then I am sure that they will eventually come around. Just brace yourself for the worst because it could get ugly, and you better have a strong enough support system outside of your family before you even think about coming out to anybody. Your new significant other is not enough to support you, and it is unfair to ask that of them.

That I opened the door by discussing personal references regarding my family is my own fault. I'd ask nobody to "stand up" for me, in spite of anyone's condescending and sanctimonious attitude and disregard for ANY member of my family.

Such people rarely read fully what anybody says and instead makes spurious assumptions based on their own psychological issues.

My only intent by stating, as I stated previously for the inept at reading, "a bad example," was to simply state that children need stability during their most formative years so they become stable adults.

I expect I will now be called a misogynistic homophobe by some frothing idiot now.

LWulf said:

That I opened the door by discussing personal references regarding my family is my own fault. I'd ask nobody to "stand up" for me, in spite of anyone's condescending and sanctimonious attitude and disregard for ANY member of my family.

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Are you new to the internet forums?

LWulf, as StrayKat said if you post it you are asking, maybe not intentionally, for others to comment. If you want your life experiences to be private property don't post them here or anywhere else on the internet. I wasn't bothered by your post but I did comment. I gain nothing from commenting again I made my point but if I hadn't, I'd refer to your post again.

You can be thankful for one thing you are very unlikely to ever face, rape or murder threats against yourself, your wife or your children along with many other lesser threats and hateful comments. Not that men as a general rule ever face that kind of abuse and the nice thing about posting here is that abuse seems to be at a minimum, as for my own experience nonexistent. Not so with other sites I do write for.

I saw nothing in your post which would lead me to label you as homophobic. As for you being misogynistic I have to say some of your post in the BDSM forum do tend to be somewhat male superior but I have made some allowances for the times in which you grew up and the general culture we all live in, so I wouldn't out right label you as a misogynist.

Dyslexicea - let me start by stating that you HAVE called me a misogynist before, not only that but when you called me a misogynist and in this thread with Cathleen, you exhibit a history where you like to bend and twist another's words so it VALIDATES your getting into a fight with someone else. I equate your presence in a thread as someone who is itching for a fight. That you also lack social graces, to me, is stating the obvious.

Let me explain how I look at it. I don't give a flying fuck what the rest of the internet does. I am me. In real life or on the internet, I can talk about my family with whoever I please, however I please, but NOBODY has the right to say anything about my family.

Now if you said "your example sucked" or "you suck for airing your dirty laundry" or anything similar, then I would take that as nothing or I might even agree with you, BUT you didn't stop there, you said "I do sympathize with LWulf for having such a person as his mother," When did I say "I hate my mom," or anything similar?? I didn't. You assumed. I spoke of values and characteristics she displayed while corporate drug ridden and decisions she made as a result (as many other mothers of the 60's were and did). So there is NOTHING to "sympathize" with. I said I was embarrassed of her (as a child) choices, nothing more than that. You didn't make comment about my mother or father, you were SNIDE in your comment about them and, in my book, that's a line you DON'T cross.

I might have even accepted if you simply said "the decisions that LWulf's parents made were wrong" but you didn't stop there and went an inch further by adding judgement by saying "I find LWulf's father's actions equally appalling, not only was he denying himself..." Who the fuck are you to fucking judge?

However, allow me to take free reign on your idiotic example of "if you post it you are asking, maybe not intentionally, for others to comment." That is, in affect, the same as saying;
If you post that you are female, then you are asking for, if not indirectly, to get a ton of cock-pics, or to be hit on by every horndog who passes by.
That if you dress sexy (in real life), then you are asking to get raped.
If you post that you are lesbian, then you are asking people, if not indirectly, to make comment.
...and by "comment" to use your example, I mean "being snide."
If you open the door to that kind of logic, expect that logic to be thrown back in your face.

You are not here to care about Rose in any way shape or form, but to say "if you aren't loud and proud (like I am), then you are ashamed and trying to inhibit homosexuality in our culture." Period. You don't care one iota about her kids. You don't care about her. Then only reason you are here (in this thread) is because you care about homosexuality. That is all and nothing more. When do you comment otherwise? Never.

No, I don't have a wife, nor any kids, but it's sweet that you think that because I'm a man (and if I did have them), that I "can be thankful for one thing you are very unlikely to ever face [rape and murder]."
Excuse me? Just because I am a male, I can't face rape or murder?!? What kind of logically immature fucking moron are you? Let me address that by saying you know NOTHING of my life.

Don't think I didn't miss that little "the negative impression about all women her actions unquestionably had on LWulf's feelings and beliefs about us. " Again, making leaps in logic that are baseless. Not addressed to me, but you also said "a divorced woman ... needs to be very careful about the men and women, especially men," You are such a sexist it isn't funny.

I hate pity, so understand exactly what I am saying, when I say "I pity you."

Children don't face ANY "homophobic bullshit" in life, unless they are homosexual, but that's what this is all about for you isn't it? YOU being homosexual and as a child, faced homophobic bullshit, isn't it? If not, then what basis are you saying that? For hearsay issues? For imagined? "I never dealt with that, but I imagine that's how it is!"

I am actually really embarrassed to be seen talking to you, because as they say; arguing with a moron makes you look twice the moron.

Does ^^^this^^^ mean you don't like me?

Continuing the hijack of this thread.

Not addressed to me, but you also said "a divorced woman ... needs to be very careful about the men and women, especially men," You are such a sexist it isn't funny.

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I stand by this statement, the vast, vast majority of child sexual molesters are men, the vast majority of physical abusers of children are men, for any woman with children not to be more cautious of men would be insanity. As a matter of fact many child molesters pick out divorced women to have a relationship with in order to get at her children and if you don't want to believe me check with the FBI you can find the data there.

Not only that but the vast majority of partner abuse is by men against women, not women against men, the vast majority of stalkers are men. As a matter of fact the vast majority of violence in the world is by men against women, children and other men.

Are all men this way, no, are the majority of men this way, no, but the number of men who are is not small.

Are there women who sexually abuse children, yes, are there women who physically abuse children, yes, are there women who emotionally abuse children, yes, are there women who abuse their male partners, yes, are there lesbians who live in abusive relationships, yes, but by the number and by the percentages a woman with children has to, for her own and her children's safety, be more cautious of men than women. That doesn't mean she shouldn't be concerned with the women she may have relationships with, there are so many other factors in selecting a partner who would be good for your children which apply equally to both women and men.

I stand by my conviction women with children, at least those who care about and love their children, have to be more cautious of men than other women and not only in relationships but also friendships. If that is being sexists I'll proudly wear that badge.

If decrying the violent nature of so many men, sexist, call me sexists, if hating the sexual objectivation of myself and other women makes me sexist, call me a sexist, if disliking the patriarchal parts of our society makes me a sexist so be it, if my believing we should be treated equal to men in all things, sexist, call me a sexist, if not agreeing with a man simply because he's a man makes me sexist I'm a sexists.

I surely don't feel the same vitriol feelings for you, you seem to have for me but I have to admit my feelings for you, based on the few post of yours I've read, are not warm but I don't hate you as a matter of fact I just don't have any feelings for you, I feel absolutely no animosity to you. Personally I thinks its unhealthy for you to have so much hate for someone you don't know, someone your never likely to know. We don't have any relationship, we don't PM, we don't exchange email, we don't talk on the phone, we just don't do any of the things that can and do change an impersonal internet relationship into a personal relationship. If you can't separate a bulletin board from real life maybe this isn't a healthy place for you to be.

Dyslexicea said:

I stand by my conviction women with children, at least those who care about and love their children, have to be more cautious of men than other women and not only in relationships but also friendships. If that is being sexists I'll proudly wear that badge.

If decrying the violent nature of so many men, sexist, call me sexists, if hating the sexual objectivation of myself and other women makes me sexist, call me a sexist, if disliking the patriarchal parts of our society makes me a sexist so be it, if my believing we should be treated equal to men in all things, sexist, call me a sexist, if not agreeing with a man simply because he's a man makes me sexist I'm a sexists.

I surely don't feel the same vitriol feelings for you, you seem to have for me but I have to admit my feelings for you, based on the few post of yours I've read, are not warm but I don't hate you as a matter of fact I just don't have any feelings for you, I feel absolutely no animosity to you. Personally I thinks its unhealthy for you to have so much hate for someone you don't know, someone your never likely to know. We don't have any relationship, we don't PM, we don't exchange email, we don't talk on the phone, we just don't do any of the things that can and do change an impersonal internet relationship into a personal relationship. If you can't separate a bulletin board from real life maybe this isn't a healthy place for you to be.

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Wow, how noble of you to stand up for women's rights on an erotic story forum. You are such a credit to your gender. Everyone woman should aspire to be so enlightened and disaffected.

Jesus, lady, just be a fucking person, not a slogan. No matter how accurate your arguments are, you're just regurgitating factoids to validate and perpetuate an unnecessary argument that YOU started. Everyone who comments after you is just trying to finish it so you'll shut up and move on to solve some other perceived injustice. The funny thing is, you don't even realize that you are actually engaging in objectification yourself by using this woman's very personal issue as a soapbox to promote your own ideals. You're not interested in helping Rose, you're interested in fostering her to be the kind of lesbian you think she should be. And by the way, when did she ever identify herself as such? She never once called herself a lesbian. Just because she is in a homosexual relationship, that doesn't mean that she will forever identify herself as a lesbian. A label is superfluous anyway. She's doesn't want to be an activist, she wants to be a good mom, and that means sacrificing whatever is necessary to accomplish that. Even if that means selling out for a while.

So go ahead and hit me with whatever you got so you can get it out of your system. Obviously you need some kind of channel to vent your frustrations, so do your worst. Play the victim again so you can feel righteous when you stand up to me. After all, I'm a man, I can take it.

I think we need to pass round the bottle of 'chill the fuck down' Jeez guys, stop being so personal when you've not even been referred in the discussion. If Lwulf and Dys want to continue to slug it out then just form a circle, not join in with the kicking. Can't we get back to talking about children and their welfare and not sound like every other angry divorcing parent? No wonder kids get so screwed up