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The Reality of Socialized Medicine

Kirkrapine said:
No, you're not.
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How do you figure?

Kirkrapine said:
In American political discourse, classical liberal/libertarian != liberal.
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In all political discourse all subcategories of liberals = liberal.

If you're an ignorant American or just a dishonest lefty you conflate liberalism with socialism regularly in an attempt to hide behind the label for the same of your actual politics.
 
BotanyBoy said:
I just don't want it in the USA, because it doesn't belong here.

It's antithetical to our founding principals, ideals, heritage, culture and traditions.
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When you're down to invoking those kinds of things in support of your position, you really got nuttin'.
 
Kirkrapine said:
Real UHC in America means single-payer, which will drive the private insurance companies out of business. That is neither un-American, nor Communist, nor government oppression.
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That is direct government oppression, highly socialistic and thus entirely un-American because the USA is pro freedom, pro individual pursuit of happiness despite your unfounded beliefs otherwise.
 
oggbashan said:
BUT - even if the NHS had much more money, and all the private health care costs are included, the UK spends and would spend less money per head of population than the US does - for universal health care. The US spends far more on health care per head of population than any European country but doesn't cover everyone. The profits go to health insurance companies, Big Pharma, and medical negligence lawyers. The US has a bad deal on health care.
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Not so much to the lawyers, I can tell you.
 
DawnODay said:
Oh?

This brings us back to the original inspiration of this thread, which was the Alfie Evans case. Oggbashan explained to me that it was not about the NHS, but a more basic question of who got to decide if a child was worth saving: his parents or the state. In the UK, it's the state. In the USA, it would have been the parents.

I'm a parent. Are you?

I'm certainly glad that, in the USA, we're FREE to make those decisions ourselves.
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Not if you can't afford healthcare, you're not. There's not much freedom to make those decisions then.
 
BotanyBoy said:
Really? They don't take their money???

Last I checked most in Europe and none in Canada get to opt out.
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They pay for the universal health care through taxation or compulsory insurance. In the UK we don't HAVE to use it. We can choose to pay privately for some health care. For trauma care the NHS is fastest and best.

We can have everything done at private hospitals or only those procedures that might involve a wait for NHS surgery e.g. hip and knee replacements. Cosmetic surgery is unlikely on the NHS except for rebuilds after trauma. Cosmetic surgery can be done in the UK or there are various European cities that specialise in particular procedures at low cost.
 
dan_c00000 said:
More dogging from the racist. Come on bot. You're such a whiny little bitch about freedom. How can countries with socialized medicine be more free? This isn't coming from me. It's coming from your capitalism loving buddies at Heritage. The Koch brothers love it and your hero the Orange Nazi does too.
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The top 10 jurisdictions in order were Switzerland, Hong Kong, New Zealand, Ireland, Australia, Finland, Norway, Denmark, and, tied at 9th place, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom. Selected countries rank as follows: Canada (11), Sweden (13), Germany (16), the United States (17)

Wow even CATO is putting US down pretty low. All those countries have socialized medicine and strict gun laws.

Come on bot, we're waiting.
 
dan_c00000 said:
More dogging from the racist. Come on bot. You're such a whiny little bitch about freedom. How can countries with socialized medicine be more free?
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More free in other ways, they probably don't SWAT team, shoot, beat up the families of and otherwise treat their farmers like narco terrorists for feeding homeless people without a permit/licence like we do here in the USA.

oggbashan said:
They pay for the universal health care through taxation or compulsory insurance.
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Right, you can't opt out of the system, the state forces it out of you under threat of legally fucking you up for non-compliance, tax evasion or other similar legal terms you might use in your judicial system correct?

Kirkrapine said:
What do RWs have against organized labor anyway? Collective bargaining is just another form of negotiation in the marketplace.
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None, they have a problem with government authority entering the equation and holding a gun to managements head on the behalf of labor.

The capitalist/liberal/RW idea of things generally run along the lines of the harm principal. Wages, benefits and conditions of employment aren't the governments fucking bidnizz, it should be a private affair between employee and employer only to involve the government if there is a dispute which is to be sorted in a court of law.
 
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BotanyBoy said:
Right, you can't opt out of the system, the state forces it out of you under threat of legally fucking you up for non-compliance, tax evasion or other similar legal terms you might use in your judicial system correct?

...
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That's how taxes work in most Western Countries. We all pay tax. What those taxes are used for differs and is decided by democratically elected governments. The UK electorate decided and supports by a large majority the principle of paying for the NHS by taxation - our free and popular choice except that no one ever likes paying taxes.
 
oggbashan said:
They pay for the universal health care through taxation or compulsory insurance. In the UK we don't HAVE to use it. We can choose to pay privately for some health care. For trauma care the NHS is fastest and best.

We can have everything done at private hospitals or only those procedures that might involve a wait for NHS surgery e.g. hip and knee replacements. Cosmetic surgery is unlikely on the NHS except for rebuilds after trauma. Cosmetic surgery can be done in the UK or there are various European cities that specialise in particular procedures at low cost.
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Never mind cosmetic surgery, what you Brits really need is for NHS to provide full orthodontic dentistry.

Consider George Formby. Quite a celeb in his day, but his teeth were the stuff of nightmares.
 
Kirkrapine said:
Never mind cosmetic surgery, what you Brits really need is for NHS to provide full orthodontic dentistry.

Consider George Formby. Quite a celeb in his day, but his teeth were the stuff of nightmares.
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Hilarious...I think you may be the first person in history to make a joke about the British dental situation. What a rare wit you are...
 
BotanyBoy said:
Mostly, but less so than under an open or even free HC market.
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More so, actually, in that both individuals and American society as a whole would be spending a great deal less on health care and getting the same service. No form of "freedom" that tends in the opposite direction from that is worth having, even to you.
 
The reality of the UK is that anyone can buy health insurance. Or, if you wish you can pony up hard cash into the sweaty fist of any physician in the land.

If you feel the need for medical services you can go to a private hospital. But the doctors that you see there will have been trained by the NHS. The doctors who treat the Queen were trained by the NHS. The only real advantage for you will be that you will get scheduled treatment when you want rather than at a time convenient to the NHS.

The hospitals will have nice comfy armchairs and polished oak desks, but if you become seriously ill whilst having your cataract operation by your NHS surgeon during the evening (because all the qualified staff work in the NHS during the day) they will call for an ambulance to take you to a proper hospital that has far more equipment.

At that point, the bills stop. The ambulance is free, the drugs, everything. The private hospital is now out of pocket. There are no charitable demands on any organisation, no-one filling out forms asking how you will pay. No-one with a calculator working out that your policy is now exhausted.

It's paid for in the same way as those Socialist roads are paid, those Socialist schools are paid and those Socialist cops are paid. Americans are welcome to their freedoms. The freedom to die of cancer because their employer has fired them or just gone out of business, the freedom to have your house foreclosed to cover the bill.
 
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