How do justify incest ?

KamaKamaSutra said:

fetish noun
fe·​tish | \ˈfe-tish also ˈfē- \
variants: or less commonly fetich
Definition of fetish
1a : an object (such as a small stone carving of an animal) believed to have magical power to protect or aid its owner
broadly : a material object regarded with superstitious or extravagant trust or reverence
b : an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion : PREPOSSESSION
c : an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression

I think Websters definition is better and more encompassing of what a fetish is.
But even it looses a bit since it implies that one can't enjoy sex without a fetish. While this is true in some it isn't in all.





On incest in particular, while I have no interest in any of my family members, I can't stand to talk to most of them much less have sex with any of them or their spouses. I don't a incest fetish is limited to the power exchange between family members. Isolation can drive people together in many ways. I mean Flowers in the Attic explores this in a way that explains rather than defines, demeans or supports.

Click to expand...

Could be but I know of one guy who simply could not have sex unless a certain specific thing happened.

SimonDoom said:

Why does it even matter? Why is it a question worth asking?

Click to expand...

I'm only being picky about use of the word 'fetish'?

The real question

The real question might be is the fetish practicing incest or those of us who like reading and writing about it.

I don't think that practicing incest can be called a fetish. It's like calling attraction to the same gender a fetish.

A fetish must be an attraction to the use of some objects in sex or to certain out of ordinary behavior between partners (and it doesn't matter who these partners are to each other)

If in sexual encounter one of the partner acts and behave like a puppy and the other as a master/mistress - that's a fetish.

But if one is simply attracted to certain demographic (be it a race, gender, social status, family status or age) it's not a fetish, I think. It can become one if you engage in roleplay (for example pretending to be a teacher)

Nezhul said:

I don't think that practicing incest can be called a fetish. It's like calling attraction to the same gender a fetish.

A fetish must be an attraction to the use of some objects in sex or to certain out of ordinary behavior between partners (and it doesn't matter who these partners are to each other)

If in sexual encounter one of the partner acts and behave like a puppy and the other as a master/mistress - that's a fetish.

But if one is simply attracted to certain demographic (be it a race, gender, social status, family status or age) it's not a fetish, I think. It can become one if you engage in roleplay (for example pretending to be a teacher)

Click to expand...

Would you say that incest is an attraction to family or just that the person your attracted to is family?

KamaKamaSutra said:

Would you say that incest is an attraction to family or just that the person your attracted to is family?

Click to expand...

Interestingly, I think those are indeed two different things. Not necessarily independent, but clearly distinguishable. However, it looks like incest is used to describe both, just the resulting situation.

One can get attracted to a person. And be hugely surprised who that person is, and be in complete miss how he happened to get sexually attracted to... Best friend of the same sex? Cusen? Teacher? Subordinate coworker? Niece's best fried? Sister? Mom? But it is primarily the person not who they are. The inadequacy of the attraction to established social norms is just a discovery of additional complication for it to be realised. If that person happened to be member of the immediate family or the same household, it's still incest. But that's clearly not a fetish.

Now, it looks completely different if one has a fixation to bang his sister. It doesn't matter she's ugly and terrible person, he does want to do it anyway, in spite of all that, because she's the sister. Or mom. Now, that would be, or at least approach incest as a fetish.

But I doubt such an obsession can emerge in void, there always will be some level of attraction to that person, current or historic, some reason that very thought ever crossed the mind.

Sure, one will not suddenly fall in love with sister completely out of the blue either, randomly discovering the amazing personality she has, at least some part of that attraction will have something to do with the simple fact that she is the sister.

Indeed, to be specifically aroused by though about people fucking their moms might quality as a fetish much more readily than doing own mom for real.

But I think there is something more. I think we (or should I talk about myself specifically?) are aroused by absurd, impossible situations presented as real. From momcest to naked in school to tentacles, from time travel to mind control, the inbuilt wrongness of the claim has some inexplicable turn on factor. I think, popularity of incest stories may have something to do with this too.

LupusDei said:

Indeed, to be specifically aroused by though about people fucking their moms might quality as a fetish much more readily than doing own mom for real.

But I think there is something more. I think we (or should I talk about myself specifically?) are aroused by absurd, impossible situations presented as real. From momcest to naked in school to tentacles, from time travel to mind control, the inbuilt wrongness of the claim has some inexplicable turn on factor. I think, popularity of incest stories may have something to do with this too.

Click to expand...

I would agree, their is so much that turns us on that isn't "rational" and I use that for lack of a better term. I mean the Japanese have a monopoly on the weird when it comes to that.

I think that most incest stories have something akin to the stories of soldiers falling for their caretakers/nurses in the world wars. A intimate connection even if it is taboo can cause some odd feelings and those can easily become romantic or lustful.

"How to justify incest" is kind of the big question when it comes to writing it.

If your story makes no attempt to justify it, or the justification is exceptionally weak (ie: Holy cow, never realized what a huge dong my brother has! I've got to get some of that!), then you're writing stroke material. The point of the story is the sex, not the journey.

If you as a writer make a serious attempt to justify it in a way that makes logical sense, then you're not writing stroke. The point of the story is the journey, not the sex.

Both kinds of stories do well here, but the latter type tends to pull higher ratings.

KamaKamaSutra said:

Would you say that incest is an attraction to family or just that the person your attracted to is family?

Click to expand...

I think in most cases it's the latter. You happen to be attracted to a family member not because they're your family, but because they are sexy and cool.

There certainly are people who get off on the incest fantasy, and watch incest porn. But I think that most of the time they aren't really incest practitioners or attracted to their own family. They are into fantasy, into the roleplay, if you will - and then it's a fetish.

I was talking about practicing incest, and I think it's rarely a fetish but an attraction. I may be wrong - I'm not of that mindset personally.

KamaKamaSutra said:

Would you say that incest is an attraction to family or just that the person your attracted to is family?

Click to expand...

This is an interesting question. I suspect the answer is complicated. Because much incest is a form of child abuse, I think in that situation it has a lot to do with the abuse of power as much as, or more than, attraction. Assuming we're talking about consensual adult incest, which is what gets written here, I imagine that in real life it's mostly the latter. But not always. I imagine it's possible to be attracted to a person because that person is your parent. Men can be attracted to women who remind them of their moms and women can be attracted to men because they remind them of their dads. It's complicated.

SimonDoom said:

This is an interesting question. I suspect the answer is complicated. Because much incest is a form of child abuse, I think in that situation it has a lot to do with the abuse of power as much as, or more than, attraction. Assuming we're talking about consensual adult incest, which is what gets written here, I imagine that in real life it's mostly the latter.

Click to expand...

IRL incest is overwhelmingly child abuse. LIT's "consensual adult incest" tales are overwhelmingly fantasy. Our stories employ many fantasy mechanisms to get our readers stroking. I sometimes forego motivations and say that it "just happened" or provide some other flimsy excuse. Our word-pictures are not ugly documentaries, not honest reporting. We turn the history of Gangs Of New York into Little Rascals comedies. Yow.

Justifying Incest

Let me preface this by stating that in real life if you want to commit incest please seek help be it professional or spiritual. Incest is not just socially wrong but also genetically introducing a much larger chance of mental disorders such as down syndrome, anxiety disorders, and somatoform disorder in any children that are produced. There also can be mental problems such as depression and social anxiety for participants of first to second generation incest relationships, and people don't fool yourselves, if you have sex with anyone you have formed a relationship, be it one of a one night stand or something more long lasting the consequences are just as real and damning. OK disclaimer out of the way.

In writing if you are trying to justify incest there are only a few main routes

1. Loneliness - One half of the prospective couple thinks that their partner can provide an emotional or physical need.

2. Blackmail - One half of the prospective couple has damning evidence that would cause irreparable harm to current social standing / relationships

3. Lust - One half of the Prospective couple usually the younger if there is an age difference feels an extremely strong physical attraction to their partner ( this is a very weak reason as both partners may be able to find other people to couple with)

4. Situational - Again a fairly weak reasoning but if one of both partners come under the influence of narcotics or alcohol then you could justify a coupling based on lowered morals / inhibitions.

That is all I can think of right now thanks for reading and happy writing

J

jaF0 said:

^^^ Hasn't the whole Oedipus thing been around pretty much since the beginning of literature?

Click to expand...

Exactly what I was going to say. Oedipus complex.

Parsanage10 said:

In writing if you are trying to justify incest there are only a few main routes

1. Loneliness - One half of the prospective couple thinks that their partner can provide an emotional or physical need.

2. Blackmail - One half of the prospective couple has damning evidence that would cause irreparable harm to current social standing / relationships

3. Lust - One half of the Prospective couple usually the younger if there is an age difference feels an extremely strong physical attraction to their partner ( this is a very weak reason as both partners may be able to find other people to couple with)

4. Situational - Again a fairly weak reasoning but if one of both partners come under the influence of narcotics or alcohol then you could justify a coupling based on lowered morals / inhibitions.

Click to expand...

I don't read incest but I've written a lot as puzzle pieces for me. I don't try to 'justify' the incest but I might explain it -- and I've generally not traveled the above routes. My more common excuses:

A. They grew up in a naked household and it just sort of happened.
B. They were separated long ago and don't know they're related.
C. A dire situation throws them into naked contact; sex ensues.
D. A distant parent feels guilt for neglecting their child, and atones.
E. Especially siblings of similar age: they taught each other intimacy.
F. It started with a cousin or aunt -- then parents and siblings join.

IRL incest is assault. I do not justify assault, murder, mayhem, arson, etc. But such crimes are the feedstock of drama. It's storytelling, folks.

Forbidden fruit has been around since Adam and Eve.

No, I'm not religious and do not believe in anything incorporeal, but I do think that the Xtian bible was an early attempt to pass down wisdom to future generations.

It could be... that because the love-bond is already there, in the relative, sexual feelings get confused.

ArtisticX said:

It could be... that because the love-bond is already there, in the relative, sexual feelings get confused.

Click to expand...

In real life it's because one has power. Consensual incest is vanishingly rare.

Hypoxia said:

A. They grew up in a naked household and it just sort of happened.

Click to expand...

This annoys me about as much as rape and domestic abuse in bdsm relationship annoy members and proponents of that lifestyle.

While isolated cases can happen, that would be rather despite than because of the lifestyle. Unlike ignorant majority, nudists/naturists are exceptionally good at separating nudity and sexuality and more often than not have fine tuned creep radar since early age.

The totally insane seemingly uptight family that suddenly goes "congratulations with your eighteen birthday, please strip; we are converting to full time nude household since right now!" is actually much more believable scenario for incest, but I would see that as just a tiny addition on their overall craziness anyway.

LupusDei said:

This annoys me about as much as rape and domestic abuse in bdsm relationship annoy members and proponents of that lifestyle.

Click to expand...

I didn't say it was rational, but neither are centaurs or vamps. It's a storytelling tool. "Once upon a time, in an unreality far, far away, or right next door..." LIT readers don't want too much actual reality. That gets nasty.

Hypoxia said:

I didn't say it was rational, but neither are centaurs or vamps. It's a storytelling tool. "Once upon a time, in an unreality far, far away, or right next door..." LIT readers don't want too much actual reality. That gets nasty.

Click to expand...

The discussion here isn't about rationality, realism or even believability, but about gross misunderstanding of the underlying philosophy. That the very philosophy may have caveats that let doubts about practical honestly in certain cases to develop is whole another matter, and yes, that's nasty and we likely don't want it here. That said, nudists are sexy, but you would be better off thinking of them as wearing invisible clothes, as opposed to clothed folks having none. That's the difference I try to push try.

That said, nudists are sexy

Click to expand...

In what way are they sexy? Simply being nude doesn't make you sexy - often it actually does the reverse.

but you would be better off thinking of them as wearing invisible clothes, as opposed to clothed folks having none

Click to expand...

This smells deeply of living in your own private fantasy world of your head, where ponies are eating rainbow and pooping butterflies.

I think of them as people with no clothes. What's actually the problem with that?
Maybe the problem here is that I don't think of people as inherently clothed beings that can strip. Human's normal state is not clothed - this is stupid. Being clothed is a social norm, just like saying "hello" is a social norm. Having that norm doesn't mean that by default all people greet each other and it's weird if they don't.

Similarly, "family" is a social thing that actually has very little to do with sexuality. Not sleeping with your relatives is merely a social norm. It's not a taboo inherently - the society merely makes it so, just like it makes racism a taboo, or nudity a taboo.
But having that taboo doesn't make children being born clothed, doesn't make any distaste that one may feel to another ethnicity go away, and it doesn't make relatives asexual to one another. We, as people, merely suppress those things to adhere to social norms.

It is, I think, important to be honest with ourselves at least. Yes, it's detrimental to go outside naked. But you can't start telling yourself that you dislike being naked. You should admit that and practice it where socium allows it to you - in your home, or special places.
Granted, socium doesn't allow incest AT ALL, but that doesn't mean you should lie to yourself, should you find yourself attracted to a family member. Just like being gay, the taboo will go away in time.

Nezhul said:

why would you need to justify sexual attraction between two people? Especially if it's a STEP-son/daugher/mother/brother/sister/dad.

I don't think you need to justify that in literature. Also your justification are what would actually break any suspension of disbelief for me. Mom and son simply feeling attracted is much easier to swallow than "mom taking a job of fixing her slut son".

BTW in the real world most incest is non-consensual, where one of the partner is raped or coerced into sex by a family member.

Click to expand...

step isn't incest.

geronimo_appleby said:

step isn't incest.

Click to expand...

semantics. It is incest in the eyes of many, and it isn't in the eyes of others.

Most law systems see it as incest even if you don't have ANY blood relationship and is purely adopted.

Why? or Why not?

What is it about "incest" that makes it taboo in the first place? I have had sex with my sister Lynn. Why? Just for mutual sexual pleasure and comfort. Is there some reason that society should have a problem with that? I am not sure the question "why" is the best focus. I think the question should just be, "Why not." And in finding the answer to that question you will likely discover that there are layers of crap hiding the facts.