Observations on Sadomasochism - Physical and Emotional

richard_daily said:

I don't think you have to know someone well. I think you just have to know yourself well.

Would I recommend doing this as pick up play? Absolutely not... Have I done some really deep emotional sadism to women who want to have it done to them pretty much right off the bat? Absolutely.

There is no "right" way to do any sort of masochism. It's a personal journey and motivations (and results) will vary.

Not everyone wants to go deep. Some people want things surface level (or skin deep as it were). That's fine. I simply don't get anything out of sadism that's purely physical. If I'm not dialed in to what someone's motivations are, the emotions behind the intent, I'm generally not going to be interested. That doesn't mean we have to do something involving deep shame and emotional masochism, but for me, there has to be some level of emotional depth and vulnerability from anyone I'm with (even casually).

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I really like this. The idea of it. And what you said about knowing yourself is key.
But what I’m wondering if it’s skin deep, meaning, no relationship, yes?
Wondering about the women AFTER.

I know it’s up to them to consent and everyone is an adult.

I don’t think I’m saying what I want. I’ll work on my thoughts on this.
I think it ties into seela’s thread.

Farawyn said:

I really like this. The idea of it. And what you said about knowing yourself is key.
But what I’m wondering if it’s skin deep, meaning, no relationship, yes?
Wondering about the women AFTER.

I know it’s up to them to consent and everyone is an adult.

I don’t think I’m saying what I want. I’ll work on my thoughts on this.
I think it ties into seela’s thread.

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One can have a 20 year relationship that's skin deep. One can be married and in a skin deep relationship.

I personally have experienced really intense, physiological and emotional connections with women I've met once. They were with women who I engaged in emotional sadism with (or cuckolding, or abduction play).

The length or type of relationship isn't particularly consequential to what I'm saying. It can certainly be an element, and my M/s relationships have definitely developed and unfolded in intensity over time.

I can't speak to the woman after, since that's not me. I can only speak from my experiences.

Thank you to everyone who has responded in this thread! I've had a wonderful time reading and reflecting on what you all have to say.

I should add that when I refer to the extra levels of pearl-clutching I've observed, that is based on my many years (I'm getting old, you guys) exploring kink online (mainly Lit and Fetlife) and in person in my local kink community.

It sounds like a lot of people think that if one type of play is considered more dicey or dangerous, that's because it is fundamentally more risky. Navigating our emotions can be more difficult than navigating physical sensations. I can understand that viewpoint.

But I also find that a lot of the explanations (here and elsewhere) about what makes emotional play so dicey and easily confused with abuse could also be said about physical play that isn't done well. When it comes to physical play, we can probably all recite the good advice:

- Don't start anything without explicit consent.
- Have a safe word.
- Start small and work your way up (a la Jay Wiseman's "Start lighter than light. Build slower than slow.")
- Know yourself and your reactions, and know your partner's as well.
- If you or your partner aren't up to it that day for whatever reason, back off or don't do it.
- Check in afterward with your partner and see how they are feeling about it.
- Find the things that work for you and do them. Find the things that don't work for you and don't do them.

(I know most of this advice feels most applicable to scenes as opposed to ongoing dynamics, but I think they serve as a good foundation upon which to build those dynamics.)

I think all of the above is really good advice for emotional play too, not just physical, and a lot of people out there who call themselves emotional sadists are really just using it as an excuse to be an emotionally abusive asshole if they aren't doing those things.

I think as a kink emotional play is probably less well understood in general than physical play. I've been to some great emotional play classes, but they are fewer and farther between than all the physical play classes that are out there. I've heard more conversations about floggers vs paddles and different ways to torture nipples (let me count the ways!) than I have conversations about how to play with specific emotions like shame, guilt, insecurity, jealousy, etc. But on a structural level those conversations feel very similar to me. Some bottoms love canes and others can't stand them. Some love floggers while others can't take a single swing. And if someone takes a paddle and smashes someone's ankle with it, we say don't hit a fucking ankle with a paddle! We don't say that it's a sign physical play is inherently bad. I think one can make a similar statement with emotional play. Different bottoms get off on different emotions being played with, just as on the physical side there are preferences on body parts hit and implements used. And every person will have emotional areas that are critical to their emotional health that shouldn't be fucked with, just like no spanking should be to the back of the head. And what those precise emotions are will vary person to person.

I think now I'm just rambling. It's been a long day. But again I want to say thank you to everyone for posting. I have found the responses fascinating and insightful and you've given me lots of good thoughts to ponder. Thank you!

When I first started bumbling around online trying to find people who liked what I did, I stumbled onto another site and was invited to join an online discussion group run by a master and his slave, who were based in the US somewhere.

One day he started chatting about how skilled he was in breaking a sub’s personality, shattering it completely so that he could rebuild her with ‘better’ traits, with obedience being top of the list. He said his military background had provided him with the necessary tools to do this.

So I asked him two genuine questions - how can you ever ‘learn’ that type of skill and what happens when it goes wrong (because mistakes happen, right?). He got very cross and, rather than giving a proper answer, just harped on about how I should call him Sir whenever I posted anything, show respect, etc etc. We’ve all met them, haven’t we.

I suppose my concern was that physical sadism seems easier to control because you have so many clues to work with - skin marks, whimpers, etc, so there are some guides to follow, imperfect though they may be. The level of ‘damage’ can be judged and therefore controlled. And the techniques of inflicting physical pain can be practised without risk on an inanimate object....yes, I know, talking about myself again...

Anyway, we have all been cut to the quick by an off the cuff, unintentionally thoughtless remark or gesture and carried the hurt of it for maybe years at a time. So I suppose it’s the lack of scope for ‘practice’ and the difficulty of truly judging the long lasting effects which makes it more of a concern than physical sadism.

First off, thank you for the thread and thank you to all who have posted.

I began reading this when it started then ironic life got in the way and I completely forgot about it.

I was redirected here by Farawyn due to a situation I'm in. I'll readily admit that my reply is a bit personally colored at this moment.

I think one of the reasons people look askance at emotional sadism is because it is much harder to judge intent. Like Miles said there are clear ways of right and wrong to swing a paddle... but I'll also note you can't do it unintentionally. You can't look down at stripes on someone's ass, a tool in your hands and legit say " haha how did THAT happen?"

But hurting someone emotionally it is far harder to judge if you did it intentionally or thoughtlessly, especially if it is in an ongoing dynamic and not in scene. I also have never met someone who owned up to screwing up. I've met plenty of people who will say " well I didn't mean it that way" when it goes sideways... I've never met someone who will say "gee that didn't go as I planned."it seems ignorance is the best excuse here where in physical play if one claimed ignorance it would completely undermine them. This seems inherently more dangerous to me.

Sitting here writing this reply a secondary answer comes to mind. I think the reason it is so hard to watch serious emotional play for me...is this...
It is always and necessarily personal. What do I mean?
If I see an impact play scene I don't think " man she really pissed him off! Or what did she do to deserve That?" Even if it is a scene that involves a backstory it is not real (unless it is punishment and if put forth that punishment is in and of itself a form of emotional play)

But when it is a scene involving Humiliation, degradation, or insecurity ... It is **innately* some aspect of it very very real or it wouldn't cause the reaction it does. Some part of the masochist even for a minute accepts deeply that those words whatever they are APPLY. I think this is what makes it so much harder to stomach idly. Not that they including the sub aren't getting something out of it... but that no one can witness it and just chalk it up to "play".

I'll readily say this is something I do not yet understand. I could very well be completely off base. I've not as of yet dealt with myself on this level, though I was pushed into the arena last week unwittingly. I ended up in a situation I didn't expect and anticipate and I've not yet come to grips with this aspect of it.
I can definitely say my gut instinct knee-jerk reaction was to think it had more to do with the person "working out their own demons" than deriving any pleasure from it. To the extent my first instinct was to try to *prorect* the person from the hurt. So yeah, I'll be the first to admit I don't understand the first thing about any of this.

I am new to the scene, and haven't truly witness anything like those, but I believe that both physical and emotional should be taken equally seriously, and maybe more so the emotionally because we may not be acutely aware of its occurrence. What make it so difficult to call out is that you don't really know what the two had negotiated beforehand and you do not know their agreed goals for that scene.

Physical abuse is quicker to spot and may not be highly tolerated because it occurs in that moment and we may see the physical change before our eyes....a person is beaten to a point in which the sub is listless/catatonic and outsiders will say "no more, the scene will end, no and or but about it".

Emotional abuse may occur over a (short or long) period of time (not necessarily witness right there and then because it can be an accumulation of emotional prodding in public and private). Another thing is that observers are slow to pick up until it's way too late. Damage was done. It went pass hurt and went into the territory of (long lasting) harm. The person's personality changes and become withdrawn and maybe the sub stay in a sub drop for longer. The person may even react to people differently, especially the ones they were close to (i.e. friends and their "trusted" dom/domme).

Maybe abuse is when there is no aftercare the immediate moment after or the days after the scene. It's extremely wise to thoroughly discuss in length before and after a scene. For the physical, impact play aftercare may be postponed a day or so, but for the emotional mindfuck, aftercare definitely should not be postponed, no matter how much the sub protest.

I have seen the tale end of a scene at a dungeon in which I knew a bottom was engaging in play with her top and I had stepped out to chat with friends. I happened to return like five minutes later and I saw the same sub on the cross one moment and then within thirty seconds of me walking in, I saw that sub quickly remove herself from there and ran into the aftercare room while the top walked away in another direction.

What I witness truly disturbed me, but at the same time, I didn't know their dynamic and I did not know whether that was the goal for the sub and that maybe that reaction was her normal behavior. No one else seem to have paid her any mind and I just swung my head back and forth looking at the two heading in opposite directions. Personally I believe that was not only physical abuse, but also emotional.... but what can I say? I have seen that top work on a person in which the person purposely drew blood repeatedly with impact and the bottom was completely fine with the outcome. I have also seen that very same top work on another in which I was told the goal was to break the sub and she seemed fine at the end. Both of those bottoms engaged normally with their friends after the scene.

I personally believe that "breaking" a person is a myth. That's like the tactics that's frowned upon in police and imprisonment interrogations. You cannot batter a person until you get the outcome that you want because at that point the person will do and say anything under duress. That's abuse.

In the end, both dom and sub has to take responsibility, caution, and have the insight to know themselves well enough in order stop a scene from falling into the abusive side of things.