The bend and flex of form poetry

Please post your favorite words that start with an unstressed syllable. I am learning about meter by collecting as many of these words as possible, and then categorize them later. If you feel generous, you can also private PM me soft words with O, E, L. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I promise to write you at least one poem with the words you send me.

Tzara said:

Um, I didn't write this sonnet. A very good poet named Ted Berrigan did. Blame (or credit) Angeline, who introduced me to him.

And, yeah. The guy is awesome.





Thank you, Ms. A, limply, belatedly.

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You're welcome. It makes me happy to turn people on to Berrigan because he is, indeed, awesome.

When I was a sophmore in college (in the ahem 1970s), a friend gave me this wonderful book called The Young American Poets that had been published in 1968 or '69. Ted Berrigan was in there as were many other poets who went on to write much wonderful stuff (from Michael Ondaatje to Anne Waldman and on and on). But Ted stood out to me then for his fabulous quality of being casual and conversational, and profound, sometimes even terrifying, at the same time. And his concept of "sonnet" was revelatory for me. I didn't know till I read him that you could write something that wasn't Elizabethan and iambic (didn't even know about Italian sonnets then duh).

There is a poem of Ted's in that compendium (Young American Poets), and I cannot remember the name of it now (maybe "Cold Rosy Dawn in NYC"), but it is astonishing. If you haven't read it (I have never seen it online), it is worth tracking down. I bet it's in this collection.

Here's a site where you can hear Berrigan read his sonnets and other poems.

I see poets doing acrostics down the center of sonnets, busting up poems in two halves. Creating odd spaces, dropping punctuation usually takes away from a poem. I don't want to solve the puzzle of the mechanics before figuring out what the poet's saying. The sonnet, and maybe poetry in general hasn't developed much mechanically since Robert Herrick discovered enjambment. ee cummings pretty much shows the limits of radical mechanics.

Acrostics have undeservedly bad rep. I have been working on writing serious poems using this form and a syllabic meter and it works quite well, but you have to be subtle.

On thing I was surprised to learn recently was that vowels have a pitch. In descending order it goes IEAOU. Has anyone heard a similar ordering for consonants?

vrosej10 said:

Acrostics have undeservedly bad rep. I have been working on writing serious poems using this form and a syllabic meter and it works quite well, but you have to be subtle.

On thing I was surprised to learn recently was that vowels have a pitch. In descending order it goes IEAOU. Has anyone heard a similar ordering for consonants?

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Is that like a musical pitch? Sorry if that is a dumb question but I know Angeline has said she 'sings' the stresses to get them right, something that has so far eluded me although I have a pretty good singing voice

UnderYourSpell said:

Is that like a musical pitch? Sorry if that is a dumb question but I know Angeline has said she 'sings' the stresses to get them right, something that has so far eluded me although I have a pretty good singing voice

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I'm sure you have a better voice than me: I'm a total frogtone. It's not a pretty sound lol, but it is my little way of trying to hear where the stresses fall. If I say something, I feel like I can put a stress (or not) anywhere, including the wrong place. But if I sing it, I'm forced to put it into the rhythm of the song, and I "hear" it better.

Yes I am nuts, but it works for me. And now I must go with EE to the dentist. Oh isn't he a happy camper.

DrewberryLess said:

Please post your favorite words that start with an unstressed syllable.

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Like, "unstressed?"

vrosej10 said:

Acrostics have undeservedly bad rep. I have been working on writing serious poems using this form and a syllabic meter and it works quite well, but you have to be subtle.

On thing I was surprised to learn recently was that vowels have a pitch. In descending order it goes IEAOU. Has anyone heard a similar ordering for consonants?

Click to expand...

Well, I think it's true that any spoken sound has a pitch... a frequency of vibration caused by the vocal apparatus. But it seems like the pitch would vary depending on the context. Somebody who says Oh! when they are startled might say it at a different pitch than somebody who says ooooooh... in the context of sweet love making, for instance Or when waking up with a gnarly hang over voice after drinking tons of whiskey and smoking tons of cigs....

If you wanted to find pitches for the consonants, you could find the sheet music to the ABC song, and order them according to their pitch in that song. Of course, a different person might sing the song differently, or say some words differently, and then the pitches would be different... I like this idea of putting pitches to letters...

UnderYourSpell said:

Is that like a musical pitch? Sorry if that is a dumb question but I know Angeline has said she 'sings' the stresses to get them right, something that has so far eluded me although I have a pretty good singing voice

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Angeline said:

I'm sure you have a better voice than me: I'm a total frogtone. It's not a pretty sound lol, but it is my little way of trying to hear where the stresses fall. If I say something, I feel like I can put a stress (or not) anywhere, including the wrong place. But if I sing it, I'm forced to put it into the rhythm of the song, and I "hear" it better.

Yes I am nuts, but it works for me. And now I must go with EE to the dentist. Oh isn't he a happy camper.

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I always thought it would be neat to write a song based on the notes that people speak when they talk.

I think particularly jazz musicians probably do this by ear...

The way I would do it, bc I'm not a great musician, would be to record somebody speaking, then put the recording into a computer, or slow it down on play back and figure out what each note they speak is. Then use those notes to make a little melody... Like I said, I think some saxophone players had a good handle on that, and a trombone with a plunger mute can sound eerily like a human voice... string instruments, too...

As far as listening to jazz, I think it takes a certain kind of ear to hear the correlation to "conversation" ... my ear doesn't really work that way most of the time I don't think I wish I had more time for music

Different countries pronuciation would make for loads of combinations and even different dialects across each country. As in the US pronunciation of OREGANO..... I pronounce it OREEEEEEGARNOO as opposed to your OREGUNNO

UnderYourSpell said:

Different countries pronuciation would make for loads of combinations and even different dialects across each country. As in the US pronunciation of OREGANO..... I pronounce it OREEEEEEGARNOO as opposed to your OREGUNNO

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Yeah but overall I think one should do one's best to understand rhythm requirements, but try even harder to write a good poem. I'd rather slip on my syllables here and there and write something that really speaks to a reader than focus so much on the forminess that I lose what I'm trying to say.

Anyway you will be fine. You are up to most any poetry challenge imho.

Rainman if you're listening, I agreed with you. Sort of.

Angeline said:

Yeah but overall I think one should do one's best to understand rhythm requirements, but try even harder to write a good poem. I'd rather slip on my syllables here and there and write something that really speaks to a reader than focus so much on the forminess that I lose what I'm trying to say.

Anyway you will be fine. You are up to most any poetry challenge imho.

Rainman if you're listening, I agreed with you. Sort of.

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Thankyou kindly but I'm shivering in me shoes about not getting this challenge thing right

UnderYourSpell said:

Thankyou kindly but I'm shivering in me shoes about not getting this challenge thing right

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Ok, well I'll hold onto your nerve while you write the poetry. I promise I'll take good care of it.

Angeline said:

...I'd rather slip on my syllables here and there...

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I have such a naughty mind...

The_Fool said:

I have such a naughty mind...

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Do you know that as I was writing that I thought to myself if Fooly sees this he will imagine something interesting?

I'll take off all my syllables for you baby. Woah, now I'm speechless.

Angeline said:

Do you know that as I was writing that I thought to myself if Fooly sees this he will imagine something interesting?

I'll take off all my syllables for you baby. Woah, now I'm speechless.

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Drop your pentametre here
on this chair while you comb
the syllables from your hair

and I watch you shimmy
along with the metaphor
and embed you in internal rhyme.

I love your sibilance and the tone
of illustrations on your assonance

bend the meaning and turn
a phrase so that hidden themes
hit the iambic foot of the bed.

Angeline said:

Do you know that as I was writing that I thought to myself if Fooly sees this he will imagine something interesting?

I'll take off all my syllables for you baby. Woah, now I'm speechless.

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As if we needed words between us. As if...

champagne1982 said:

Drop your pentametre here
on this chair while you comb
the syllables from your hair

and I watch you shimmy
along with the metaphor
and embed you in internal rhyme.

I love your sibilance and the tone
of illustrations on your assonance

bend the meaning and turn
a phrase so that hidden themes
hit the iambic foot of the bed.

Click to expand...

I love you, darling....

champagne1982 said:

Drop your pentametre here
on this chair while you comb
the syllables from your hair

and I watch you shimmy
along with the metaphor
and embed you in internal rhyme.

I love your sibilance and the tone
of illustrations on your assonance

bend the meaning and turn
a phrase so that hidden themes
hit the iambic foot of the bed.

Click to expand...

It's lovely but I'm about to move to the heart of Appalachia, very rednecky you know, just ask tungtied. So the illustrations on my assonance may involve my butt and a Xerox machine.

UnderYourSpell said:

Is that like a musical pitch? Sorry if that is a dumb question but I know Angeline has said she 'sings' the stresses to get them right, something that has so far eluded me although I have a pretty good singing voice

Click to expand...

Yes. I cannot sing for shit and I am a bit tone deaf, but the weird thing is I can get the feel for meter in songs but have difficulty in poetry.

Palba_Noruda said:

Well, I think it's true that any spoken sound has a pitch... a frequency of vibration caused by the vocal apparatus. But it seems like the pitch would vary depending on the context. Somebody who says Oh! when they are startled might say it at a different pitch than somebody who says ooooooh... in the context of sweet love making, for instance Or when waking up with a gnarly hang over voice after drinking tons of whiskey and smoking tons of cigs....

If you wanted to find pitches for the consonants, you could find the sheet music to the ABC song, and order them according to their pitch in that song. Of course, a different person might sing the song differently, or say some words differently, and then the pitches would be different... I like this idea of putting pitches to letters...





I always thought it would be neat to write a song based on the notes that people speak when they talk.

I think particularly jazz musicians probably do this by ear...

The way I would do it, bc I'm not a great musician, would be to record somebody speaking, then put the recording into a computer, or slow it down on play back and figure out what each note they speak is. Then use those notes to make a little melody... Like I said, I think some saxophone players had a good handle on that, and a trombone with a plunger mute can sound eerily like a human voice... string instruments, too...

As far as listening to jazz, I think it takes a certain kind of ear to hear the correlation to "conversation" ... my ear doesn't really work that way most of the time I don't think I wish I had more time for music

Click to expand...

I love this idea because the idea of pitched vowels actually works in practice. I had been trying to write a poem about ANZAC day (I think it would be like veteran's day for you yanks) and I had this really good but weird take that I had been playing with for weeks and I couldn't get it off the ground. Then I heard about the pitch and sat down and wrote a fifteen line poem with a ten syllable count using the pitched idea and came out with a something first go.

a few years ago, i started looking at some of my older pieces with a more of an eye to dissecting their make-up than to what they were saying. some seemed to have a far better cohesion than others, not exactly slant-rhymes or particulars of metre, but i went through looking at their sounds. I discovered those that worked best for my ear had certain reps of sounds that ran throughout any given piece, and the use of hard and soft sounds was integral to what was being said. I ran through stuff, bolding the sounds, often just the vowels and was honestly surprised by what i saw - i'd not thought about the make-up of a poem this way before, nor do i (even now) TRY to write with this in mind but am now aware of it when i've written and can apply it to edits when looking to improve a work.

chipbutty said:

a few years ago, i started looking at some of my older pieces with a more of an eye to dissecting their make-up than to what they were saying. some seemed to have a far better cohesion than others, not exactly slant-rhymes or particulars of metre, but i went through looking at their sounds. I discovered those that worked best for my ear had certain reps of sounds that ran throughout any given piece, and the use of hard and soft sounds was integral to what was being said. I ran through stuff, bolding the sounds, often just the vowels and was honestly surprised by what i saw - i'd not thought about the make-up of a poem this way before, nor do i (even now) TRY to write with this in mind but am now aware of it when i've written and can apply it to edits when looking to improve a work.

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I try to self-critique a draft in terms of assonance and dissonance with respect to form and theme of the poem. I then look at meter. Unfortunately, the latter sometimes gets the best of me (I suspect it's because of those nursery rhymes and my parochial elementary education). The poem in those cases suffers for it and I only realize it after I post it and come out of my metric hypnosis.

chipbutty said:

a few years ago, i started looking at some of my older pieces with a more of an eye to dissecting their make-up than to what they were saying. some seemed to have a far better cohesion than others, not exactly slant-rhymes or particulars of metre, but i went through looking at their sounds. I discovered those that worked best for my ear had certain reps of sounds that ran throughout any given piece, and the use of hard and soft sounds was integral to what was being said. I ran through stuff, bolding the sounds, often just the vowels and was honestly surprised by what i saw - i'd not thought about the make-up of a poem this way before, nor do i (even now) TRY to write with this in mind but am now aware of it when i've written and can apply it to edits when looking to improve a work.

Click to expand...

Sing it sister!I have found the same thing. I am very verbal and can be exceptionally eloquent when I am having a hypomanic episode which sometimes results in brilliant one shot poetry. (This poem was written in one go with no editingwww.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=427624 ultramarine ebony.). When I ave gone back and looked at the ones that really worked I round they had assonance or consonance or internal slant rhymes going on.

vrosej10 said:

Sing it sister!I have found the same thing. I am very verbal and can be exceptionally eloquent when I am having a hypomanic episode which sometimes results in brilliant one shot poetry. (This poem was written in one go with no editingwww.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=427624 ultramarine ebony.). When I ave gone back and looked at the ones that really worked I round they had assonance or consonance or internal slant rhymes going on.

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This is wonderfully written and I'm amazed that you didn't edit it. It's very sensual and there is spontaneity to the rhythm. I think your sentence structure with its varied length for me at least created a sense of anticipation and release. Although some poets dismiss sentence structure as irrelevant, if they think of it at all, I always try to view the poem in terms of sentence length, punctuation, and syntax and assess how it adds to what I want to write. I might quibble with one of your sentences, but that's all it would be, a quibble.

I also liked the repetition which created a drumbeat for me. Repetition of words or phrases, when skillfully employed in my opinion, can add substantially to the rhythm; when not done skillfully, it can turn a piece into a nursery rhyme for pre-schoolers. That certainly wasn't the case here in this beautiful love song.

UnderYourSpell said:

Different countries pronuciation would make for loads of combinations and even different dialects across each country. As in the US pronunciation of OREGANO..... I pronounce it OREEEEEEGARNOO as opposed to your OREGUNNO

Click to expand...

Funny you should point this out. My first language is English (North American) and yet when I read the combination IEAOU, I pronounced it in my mind as:

ee
ay
ah
oo
ew

This is how it is on (IN - I'm even getting in/on mixed up now! lol - they have one word for in/on) Portuguese.

Edit to ask:

I'm interested in this aspect of GB pronunciation ... as a small one, my parents had friends from England. One of them was an Upper class Londoner (probably born circa 1940's and moved to Canada in the 60's or early 70's) I remember her stating that by the accent she could tell the very street in London that a British person grew up. Is this true? I know that there is a difference between Welsh and Yorkshire and Londoners for example, but when in London, can you distinguish the part of town one grew up in just by the way they pronounce their words?

vrosej10 said:

Sing it sister!I have found the same thing. I am very verbal and can be exceptionally eloquent when I am having a hypomanic episode which sometimes results in brilliant one shot poetry. (This poem was written in one go with no editingwww.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=427624 ultramarine ebony.). When I ave gone back and looked at the ones that really worked I round they had assonance or consonance or internal slant rhymes going on.

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i think this is my favourite piece i've read of yours, vrose the sounds - ah, the sounds ...

I've tried singing, chanting and shouting to get stresses right, but it doesn't really help me. I know when I've got something that's not quite right by eye, but that doesn't mean I know how to fix it. Counting syllables can usually mask an inability to label your stresses. Some people can't even count syllables right, so at least I got that. Many songs benefit from wonky line lengths and odd word choices.