The Bratty Thread

Homburg said:

I personally think that a lot of the negativity going on here, aside from being a very valid response to perceived bad behaviour, is also based on "This is not compatible with my tastes." I don't personally have a problem with "This ain't my thing," as it is valid to have those feelings, and I certainly don't blame anyone for disliking the occasionally awful behaviour of brats in public. Goodness knows that it drove me nuts too. I'm not really cool with saying "This is NOT a submissive," though. Submissive is a pretty broad tent, and can be used to describe anything from bottom with submissive leanings to full TPE slave. Saying that a bratty submissive is not a submissive because of widgey communication is judgemental as all get out.

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This.

I reject the notion that the fact that I have a somewhat oppositional nature, and poses qualities that often fall under peoples definition of the label "brat" that I'm automatically not submissive. I am submissive in my relationship, in my way, and if someone wants to think that my "bratty" qualities make me not submissive they can go fuck themselves.

Also, the idea that being a brat is just an "act" is insulting. My personality, and the way I react to things, often fall under what people describe as "bratty" behavior. Yes, I'm sure that there are many people who "act" bratty, but when I react in an oppositional way, thats not some pre-thought out, conscious act thats done for ANY purpose, much less a manipulative one. The idea that my being myself is actually my being a manipulative masochist, who's only looking to get punished, is really insulting. I'm hardly even masochistic at all! Can we please at least recognize that somebody might just have a "bratty" personality? And that it might not always just be a manipulative "act"? Just because that's the only type of "brat" that you've come across, does not mean that every single submissive (yes, SUBMISSIVE) who acts bratty is just "acting" obnoxious to get a whipping.

If you don't like brats, fine, no one says you have to like them and have a relationship with one, but please at least try to realize that not every brat is some manipulative masochistic bitch.

At least try to take the time to understand bratty behavior the way you took the time to understand doormat psychology. Its no sweat off your balls, is it? No. Its not.

Homburg said:

I can get the brat thing. There's a lot of negative judgement here, but I think it is a result of external observation, not involvement. There are "good" brats and "bad" ones, and ZRT pretty much lands on that. The "good" ones know when to tone it down.

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i will never "tone it down" to spare a Dominants feelings again. They can take my tongue or they can't. i don't spare egos. By the same token i don't set limits in the relationship. They don't want me to set limits on what they can do then they better not set any on me because i will do whatever i feel like doing. Since i'm a straight girl i'm going to assume He's bigger and stronger and like duh... Dominant so i expect them to handle it. Its the reason i'm in the relationship with a Dominant and not a submissive.

i really feel no need to make a Dominant feel all warm and fuzzy and worshiped for making me lick shit off their short ugly dick and if i'm pissed off i have no problem telling them just what i think of it.

i don't do one sided TPE. They want me to obey their rules then they better be prepared to force, cajole, inspire, persuade, or coerce me into doing so cuz i'm not going to do the work for them.

I don't know the difference between truly bratty behavior in a kid and bratty behavior in an adult. A brat is acting out to get attention and his or her way. I wouldn't call it an act, unless it was some sort of role playing, but it is communicating in an immature way.

That said, again, in a consensual context, playful banter or the whole wrestling submission from someone thing can be fun. If everyone is enjoying themselves, I don't see the problem.

intothewoods said:

I don't know the difference between truly bratty behavior in a kid and bratty behavior in an adult. A brat is acting out to get attention and his or her way. I wouldn't call it an act, unless it was some sort of role playing, but it is communicating in an immature way.

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Agreed. This is one of the reasons i get so incredibly angry when "Daddy" types who profess to like that dynamic only want their "little" girl to relate to them with from behind a maturity filter. i just won't do it.

00Syd said:

Also, the idea that being a brat is just an "act" is insulting. My personality, and the way I react to things, often fall under what people describe as "bratty" behavior. Yes, I'm sure that there are many people who "act" bratty, but when I react in an oppositional way, thats not some pre-thought out, conscious act thats done for ANY purpose, much less a manipulative one. The idea that my being myself is actually my being a manipulative masochist, who's only looking to get punished, is really insulting. I'm hardly even masochistic at all! Can we please at least recognize that somebody might just have a "bratty" personality? And that it might not always just be a manipulative "act"? Just because that's the only type of "brat" that you've come across, does not mean that every single submissive (yes, SUBMISSIVE) who acts bratty is just "acting" obnoxious to get a whipping.

If you don't like brats, fine, no one says you have to like them and have a relationship with one, but please at least try to realize that not every brat is some manipulative masochistic bitch.

At least try to take the time to understand bratty behavior the way you took the time to understand doormat psychology. Its no sweat off your balls, is it? No. Its not.

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I'm trying to understand, but I really don't get it.

Like in ZRT's example earlier in the thread, the "close the door, no, you make me" thing. Why would you (general you) do that? I mean, really, the door? It's not that big a deal. Just shut up and close the damn thing.

Maybe I'm reacting too literally to that specific example, though. Or maybe I'm just really boring in my reactions. "Um, ok," doesn't inspire a lot of fun and games, I guess.

It's like how I don't understand the punishment dynamic, either. I had a conversation with a dom once where I said I didn't do punishment. It went something like this.

Him: Well, what if you don't do something you're told?
Me: Why would I do that?
Him: What if you don't feel like it that day?
Me: I do it, anyway, or I say, "I really feel like shit today. Can I wait until tomorrow?" If the answer is yes, I do it tomorrow. If the answer is no, I do it, anyway.
Him: Well, what if you don't do something right?
Me: I'd have tried to do it to the best of my ability. And if I'd screwed up, it would've been a genuine accident, and I wouldn't cotton too well to being punished for trying my best.

And on and on, ad nauseam.

I think if you want to be submissive, wouldn't you at least try to do what you're told? That's what's tripping me up here. What is the purpose of the resistance?

I'm not trying to be bitchy, honest. I just can't wrap my head around it.

Ah, the joys of semantics!

JMohegan said:

brat = an ill-mannered immature person (per Webster); an annoying, spoiled, or impolite child (per Random House).

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yourmissl said:

By this definition, I'd say the "brat" title can't be confined to plys., but must include number of PLYs as well, no?

Also, a question: Is the questioning/pushing/challenging always a negative, or only in an established PLY/ply relationship?

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Yes, of course there could be D-types who are brats. Sexual or intimate relationship ID has nothing to do with it.

As for "questioning/pushing/challenging," my answer is: no, these are not always negatives - even in the context of a D/s relationship. As with many other behaviors, what makes these things okay (or not okay) would be the manner in which they are acted out.

00Syd said:

I reject the notion that the fact that I have a somewhat oppositional nature, and poses qualities that often fall under peoples definition of the label "brat" that I'm automatically not submissive. I am submissive in my relationship, in my way, and if someone wants to think that my "bratty" qualities make me not submissive they can go fuck themselves.

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The state of being submissive has nothing to do with individual honor or personal character. On the other hand, rude and spoiled are traits that *are* directly related to issues of integrity, because they generate behaviors that have a negative effect on other human beings.

I am therefore confounded by the notion that someone would take personal offense at a calm and well-reasoned statement, 'that doesn't sound like what I consider to be submissive,' yet be okay with the brat label.

Have you chucked the dictionary out the window, and invented your own definition for the words bratty and brat? If so, please share.

If not, are you suggesting that your "nature" somehow means that the usual rules for human interaction don't apply to you? That it's okay for you to be rude & spoiled, because that's just the way you are? If that's the case, then when (or for whom) is rude and spoiled behavior *not* okay, in your view?

ataxia.girl said:

i will never "tone it down" to spare a Dominants feelings again. They can take my tongue or they can't. i don't spare egos. By the same token i don't set limits in the relationship. They don't want me to set limits on what they can do then they better not set any on me because i will do whatever i feel like doing. Since i'm a straight girl i'm going to assume He's bigger and stronger and like duh... Dominant so i expect them to handle it. Its the reason i'm in the relationship with a Dominant and not a submissive.

i really feel no need to make a Dominant feel all warm and fuzzy and worshiped for making me lick shit off their short ugly dick and if i'm pissed off i have no problem telling them just what i think of it.

i don't do one sided TPE. They want me to obey their rules then they better be prepared to force, cajole, inspire, persuade, or coerce me into doing so cuz i'm not going to do the work for them.

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I just love your post. Made me smile and think a lot.
Thank you

BiBunny said:

I think if you want to be submissive, wouldn't you at least try to do what you're told? That's what's tripping me up here. What is the purpose of the resistance?

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i'm not trying to be submissive i'm trying to be powerless. The resistance has a very valid purpose. To see if he's dominant or not. Who's dominating me? Is it him or my own fantasy and desire? i am not into dominating myself.

He can TELL me he's dominant till the cows come home but if he can't be inconvenienced and his only answer to resistance is to exit the relationship then i don't believe he was all that dominant in the first place. You want me to believe you're "Dominant"?

Show me.

JMohegan said:

If not, are you suggesting that your "nature" somehow means that the usual rules for human interaction don't apply to you? That it's okay for you to be rude & spoiled, because that's just the way you are?

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In an intimate relationship.... yes

JMohegan said:

If that's the case, then when (or for whom) is rude and spoiled behavior *not* okay, in your view?

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For me personally its any less than intimate interaction. i hold back and suck it up with pretty much anyone other than Daddy but then they aren't fucking my face are they? i mean these people with whom i am civilized aren't the ones who expect me to drink their piss, lick their shit and swallow their cum are they?

Your question disrespects what i bring to an intimate relationship because i'm sorry but any relationship that includes dry fucking me in the ass is not going to include polite, civilized interaction from me.

Maybe you're the one with the misapplied expectations here.

So when you brats are being brats, and it happens in front of one of those that you see as domly. What's going though your head at that point?

YourCaptor said:

So when you brats are being brats, and it happens in front of one of those that you see as domly. What's going though your head at that point?

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i'm usually just blind rage at that point. Daddy is many times just amused which only serves to make me even angrier. Sometimes he is annoyed like if i'm being a brat and he wants to sleep because it means he's going to have to deal with me instead of sleeping. The worst time i was just feeling restless and wanting something more. He was fixing to go to sleep and was spooning me so i started kicking him. i was real mad but now i can't remember about what. By the time it was over i was on the floor in zip ties performing very uncomfortable fellatio for a very long time.

i've thrown water on him, yanked his chest hair, and beat him with my 10" jelly dildo. All of this in the end just serves to illustrate how powerless i am. He just soooo much bigger and stronger. The whole thing is generally born out of intense frustration at not being able to effect any real change in the relationship no matter what i do.

It happens when the angry emotions get to a point i am no longer capable of cognizant thought or communication. Funny how i'm still able to mock him though. i remember once going through our text messages that day while i was traveling to see him and reading them aloud mocking all of his responses. i was so fucking pissed. i was angry he wouldn't let me have a male sub but was okay with me having a girl to play with. It was just so cliche. It made me want to vomit. The last thing i'm going to do is go find a girly type playmate to play with to provide wank material for him. As if! The problem is this contradicts my deep seated need to please him (which i rarely acknowledge even exists).

ataxia.girl said:

i'm not trying to be submissive i'm trying to be powerless. The resistance has a very valid purpose. To see if he's dominant or not. Who's dominating me? Is it him or my own fantasy and desire? i am not into dominating myself.

He can TELL me he's dominant till the cows come home but if he can't be inconvenienced and his only answer to resistance is to exit the relationship then i don't believe he was all that dominant in the first place. You want me to believe you're "Dominant"?

Show me.

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Ok. So you're saying that the only way you know a man is dominant is if you test him?

BiBunny said:

Ok. So you're saying that the only way you know a man is dominant is if you test him?

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Repeatedly in case he turns into a wuss while i'm not looking. i change... all the time. i am not constant therefore its hard for me to understand that other people might be. i don't believe in my ability to submit and obey long term therefore i need the reassurance they can handle me and i need it over and over and over again.

Honestly though i think most people over estimate the inconvenience this really is. It takes Daddy all of about 3 minutes to get control of an out of control ataxia.girl. He's bigger. He's stronger. He's not afraid to just grab me, flip me over, deliver a few whacks and then go about whatever it was he wanted in the first place.

Does anyone realize how horrible it makes me feel when Domly types tell me that three minutes is just too big of an inconvenience for them to be in a relationship with me? Seriously?

Since when did it become the norm for women to not set limits on the kind of sexual behavior they will get up to with\for their man but they are not allowed any primal behavior themselves? i do not put rules around how he has to behave and by the same token i expect him to deal with me at my most primitive and that may mean dealing with some emotional immaturity. He's BIGGER than me! What the fuck are men so fucking afraid of???

BiBunny said:

I'm trying to understand, but I really don't get it.

Like in ZRT's example earlier in the thread, the "close the door, no, you make me" thing. Why would you (general you) do that? I mean, really, the door? It's not that big a deal. Just shut up and close the damn thing.

Maybe I'm reacting too literally to that specific example, though. Or maybe I'm just really boring in my reactions. "Um, ok," doesn't inspire a lot of fun and games, I guess.

It's like how I don't understand the punishment dynamic, either. I had a conversation with a dom once where I said I didn't do punishment. It went something like this.

Him: Well, what if you don't do something you're told?
Me: Why would I do that?
Him: What if you don't feel like it that day?
Me: I do it, anyway, or I say, "I really feel like shit today. Can I wait until tomorrow?" If the answer is yes, I do it tomorrow. If the answer is no, I do it, anyway.
Him: Well, what if you don't do something right?
Me: I'd have tried to do it to the best of my ability. And if I'd screwed up, it would've been a genuine accident, and I wouldn't cotton too well to being punished for trying my best.

And on and on, ad nauseam.

I think if you want to be submissive, wouldn't you at least try to do what you're told? That's what's tripping me up here. What is the purpose of the resistance?

I'm not trying to be bitchy, honest. I just can't wrap my head around it.

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I think maybe this is the difference between wanting to be submissive and wanting to be dominated into submission.

ataxia.girl said:

i'm not trying to be submissive i'm trying to be powerless. The resistance has a very valid purpose. To see if he's dominant or not. Who's dominating me? Is it him or my own fantasy and desire? i am not into dominating myself.

He can TELL me he's dominant till the cows come home but if he can't be inconvenienced and his only answer to resistance is to exit the relationship then i don't believe he was all that dominant in the first place. You want me to believe you're "Dominant"?

Show me.

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I think I am motivated by some similar feelings, I just go about it in a very different way. My resistance is limited to a lot of playful smack talk and banter. A lot of sarcasm, but the kind that makes him smile, not the kind that pisses him off. But yeah, it's all an invitation to be shown the dominance. Once we get to that point, I turn very submissive.

And for me, this is only sexually. I am not terribly submissive outside the bedroom.

YourCaptor said:

So when you brats are being brats, and it happens in front of one of those that you see as domly. What's going though your head at that point?

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For me, I'm just playing. I'm wanting to tease, in the good way, I'm communicating that I want him to dominate me, I'm inviting roughness. I want him to shut me up, prove who's in charge, teach me what I get for being mouthy. But this is foreplay for us. It's not genuine disrespect, which is why I'm questioning whether I'm really a "brat" or not. It's behavior that I think some of you Doms would certainly call bratty, but I'm not in a relationship with you, so does it matter? It is insolence, it is petulance, but it's perceived as fun in my relationships. So, I don't know if that's true brattiness or not.

subish2009 said:

For me, I'm just playing. I'm wanting to tease, in the good way, I'm communicating that I want him to dominate me, I'm inviting roughness. I want him to shut me up, prove who's in charge, teach me what I get for being mouthy. But this is foreplay for us. It's not genuine disrespect, which is why I'm questioning whether I'm really a "brat" or not. It's behavior that I think some of you Doms would certainly call bratty, but I'm not in a relationship with you, so does it matter? It is insolence, it is petulance, but it's perceived as fun in my relationships. So, I don't know if that's true brattiness or not.

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Except for just a couple of times i am perceived as fun for Daddy despite the fact that i don't hold back. i see the flash of anger when i hit a nerve occasionally. Its thrilling. i enjoy seeing what he will do at the same time i am slightly afraid.

i used to worry about being too bratty, that it would make me undesirable to him. He encouraged me not to hold back, not to edit myself, not to insert a mature "adult" filter between my brain and my mouth\body. So i mostly don't now. i just am and so he gets to own all that i am, not just the polite parts. i think i'm a lot like owning a little black rain cloud a fair amount of the time.

i'm not really allowed not to please. It isn't really possible. Whether i fight or not Daddy is going to get off. Daddy is going to get off even if i'm passed out drunk. In the strangest way by simply never NOT using me he has reduced me to a set of holes. He is the gateway to a few simple fetishes of my own which don't really happen if i'm not being good but even then he gauges where the bad behavior is coming from. i remember one night he came to my room where i was crying and hiding under the covers. i yelled at him and tried to bite him. i was feeling very feral and out of control, not necessarily bratty. He just brushed my hair and fucked me to sleep.

i have a lot of pent up rage and Daddy wants to own it and control it, along with the rest of me.

I have had moments of brattiness and I don't care for them very much. They sometimes surface when i am trying to be playful and momentarily forget where the boundaries of acceptable behaviour lie, but moreso I think that they sometimes appear as an act of defiance.

I wonder sometimes if its an act of defiance against submission as oppose to the Pyl.

I spend a lot of time lately analysing if I am a submissive, to the point of being able to be a satisfactory sub to someone that is. I know its subjective. But sometimes i feel like I fall so short of the mark. And it leaves me wondering that perhaps I want to be a sub more than I am capable of being one.

Anyway I digress. One of the last times I acted this way went like this....I was talking on my way home from work and said something that was a little out of line. He said ''I won't accept that and you know what to do when that's the case.'' And indeed...I did know but instead of just apologising and saying yes Sir, I replied something along the lines of 'ha! I'm in the middle of the street...how's that gonna happen?!''

I was goading. I was annoyed and things felt unfair and there you have it. If I was as submissive as i would like to be... have strived to be I might feel sometimes that things are unfair, but I wouldn't react to them; I would accept them.

I am so definitely not uber sub...I am mediocre sub

Yeah, personally I don't actually care for being perceived as a brat. To me and this is purely my own standard of acceptable behaviour...there is a difference between me being playful and me being a brat.

I just need to work out how and if I can control it. Which again probably brings me back to the whole bigger picture...am i really a submissive, question again.

ETA: and I know that this dynamic works for many and thats really great if thats the case. Its'just that in my case i dont want to find a PYL with who would tolerate it or who would embrace it, for the simple reason that I myself don't think its an acceptable way to behave if I am their submissive.

SimonBrooke said:

Any relationship - even a soi-disant 'master/slave' relationship - is an act of ongoing negotiation and compromise.

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From reading people who contribute to the conversations on Lit, I don't think that is the truism you've presented it to be. I know it is not the case in my relationship.

It is true that I stay in touch with my woman's feelings, desires, proclivities, squicks and so on. Sometimes I correct them, sometimes I nip them in the bud, sometimes I encourage them, sometimes I ignore them, sometimes I get her to clarify those things via communication. But I don't negotiate them.

Hell, we never had any negotiation even in the beginning. I said, "The tie goes to me. Are you in or out?" (We had never heard of "D/s" at the time.) That is *not* negotiation.

"Negotiation" is a ..... No. I think that's better left for a thread in and of itself.

So that brings a question to mind that is pertinent to this discussion. (MInd you, I haven't thought it through. Just a question that popped into my head.)

Is "negotiation" an ongoing part of all the relationships in which the submissive considers herself a brat?

minx1 said:

I have had moments of brattiness and I don't care for them very much. They sometimes surface when i am trying to be playful and momentarily forget where the boundaries of acceptable behaviour lie, but moreso I think that they sometimes appear as an act of defiance.

I wonder sometimes if its an act of defiance against submission as oppose to the Pyl.

<<snip>>

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Sorry for the snippage, but I wanted to address this subject of defiance. As I said earlier on this thread any brattiness behavior I may have is just playful teasing.

However, I do have times (rare, thankfully) where I am strongly defiant. Without question it is a act against submission itself and not my PYL. Especially in the beginning of the relationship but even now I struggle. I would think many pyls struggle with perfect obedience. We are human. Does the fact I am defiant occasionally make me less of a submissive? I don't think so. Behaving like a brat can be seen the same way.

Maybe I'm a mediocre sub, too

OK, I feel it's time for something important to be added to this discussion because this talk of mediocre is upsetting.

No matter what any PYL might say, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PERFECT. Period. And, if there is no perfect then there cannot be mediocre. We are human. We have human emotion. We have hormones. We have brains. Therefore, we cannot be perfect. Can't happen.

/rant

missginger2177 said:

OK, I feel it's time for something important to be added to this discussion because this talk of mediocre is upsetting.

No matter what any PYL might say, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PERFECT. Period. And, if there is no perfect then there cannot be mediocre. We are human. We have human emotion. We have hormones. We have brains. Therefore, we cannot be perfect. Can't happen.

/rant

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I was just teasing...thus the (And I hope Minx was, too.)

Yep I am a brat. I am strong willed, stubborn and just HAVE to push those buttons and see how far I can stretch that elastic before it comes back and twangs me in the arse.

I exasperate Daddy beyond belief sometimes and we have had many a fight over it. But we are happy with our relationship and I am still his pet. He calls me Princess and its because of the way I push buttons that he does it.

Now if that makes me any less of a sub and him any less of a Dom then so be it. As missginger has just posted. No one is perfect but to Daddy and I, we are as close to it as we can be.

Everyones perception of how a sub should act to her Dom is different, every Dom has a different perception of how a sub should act. THAT is what makes the human race and every person in it unique.

I'm a brat. I know I am a brat. Daddy knows I am a brat and loves me despite it.

I will continue to take my punishment, I will continue to exasperate him. But above all, I will continue to be His.

missginger2177 said:

OK, I feel it's time for something important to be added to this discussion because this talk of mediocre is upsetting.

No matter what any PYL might say, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PERFECT. Period. And, if there is no perfect then there cannot be mediocre. We are human. We have human emotion. We have hormones. We have brains. Therefore, we cannot be perfect. Can't happen.

/rant

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ecstaticsub said:

I was just teasing...thus the (And I hope Minx was, too.)

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Well actually no I'm afraid I wasn't.

But not because of what any PYL has ever said. More my own analysis of myself when it comes to being submissive or at least aspects of it.

But I actually don't see it as a really bad thing to admit to feeling.

To me it says I'm just ok....I don't excel at something.

I am a mediocre cook. I am mediocre gardener. I am even a mediocre friend sometimes! I am less than mediocre at public speaking, and much more than mediocre at lots of things Ido. Its just my own self appraisal I guess. Perhaps sometimes I set the bar too high and am a bit of a perfectionist, but I am also aware of my own limitations and areas I feel i need to improve.

I don't see being mediocre as terribly bad thing. I was never a straight A student....I was average.

But I have learned a lot and I think developed and improved.

This is just something else that I am ok at. There are also some aspects of it that I feel I can improve on.