Insider or Outsider?

Am I am insider?
Interesting question.
I have been here a goodly few years, initially as a pretty green noob, and latterly as someone who is pretty much lifestyle, including working within the kink industry.

When I first came here, like everyone, I formed opinions of other posters. I watched how they interacted with others. Back then there were a couple of fairly established cliques. Certain threads were definitely pointless for me to post on as I would not get a response.

Maybe over time people have come to know me and understand my reasons for being here.

Yep I have been guilty in shooting some threads down in flames. They have been those that on the surface were raising a few red flags, then on closer inspection displayed a whole field full of them.
I'm not a young person, I have seen more than my fair share of bullshit. My tolerance for the stuff is pretty minimal, and yes I do tend to call it when I see it.

What we do can be bloody dangerous. On a thread that is asking for advice on something that could seriously fuck a person up, I'm will make no apologies if I am blunt to those who are peddling fluffy and dangerous bullshit (try getting that mental image out of your head!)

I have made some amazing friends in this group. I posted on many of the other groups, but over the years have gravitated exclusively here, as I feel comfortable here.
I know the dynamics, the friendships. I know the genuine BDSMers.
I have never seen a genuine request for information shot down, but I have seen plenty of "twue" Doms and dangerous players sent packing.

What I saw here last year, was the coming together of a long standing and diverse community, in support of one of its respected members. Everyone put aside whatever differences they had and pulled together.

I feel like I have found a comfortable niche here. I don't post as much as I used to. But would echo what a few others have said, in that I feel like I can be me here.

midwestyankee said:

<clipped>

Of all the points raised here, only one has gone unanswered so far as I can tell. Earlier, Collar_N_Cuffs brought up the issue of personal attacks. I have hesitated to bring this up because I didn't want to see this thread devolve into a defense of any particular person or any particular ill-conceived posts or threads before the good things I wanted from this thread came to be. But now I'd like to return to her point.

I've seen some ugly behavior here over the years. And I've been a willing participant in some of it, for which I carry no pride and a good deal of shame. I had a brief PM conversation with one of the HTers who had posted to this thread yesterday and I found myself saying something along these lines: "I know that incivility and cliqueishness are common at Lit and on the Web in general. But I want my home to be better than that, dammit." That's the fundamental reason I started this thread: because I want my online home to be better, dammit.

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Thanks, I appreciate this. In a personal attack, I will just walk away. It's frustrating, because I may have more to say on the subject, but when it comes down to a choice between mud slinging and walking away, I'm going to walk away.

Not too far though, but that's the other thing that bugs me. We lose people, here. Lose them to the daily activities that take over their lives, their changing circumstances, and worse. That is understandable. But when we lose them after arguments, I find it highly regrettable. I really miss some of those who have thrown up their hands in disgust and stalked off.

When I see a thread getting personal, I tend to keep quiet. Would it help if I pitched in to defend the one I thought had the right of it, or would that make me the attacker? I don't know. Luckily, I have never been the target of anything personal - someone disagreeing with me in a dismissive way is their right and not on the same scale as the nasty stuff I've seen others on the receiving end of. But I do wonder whether keeping quiet and not rising to someone's defence is cowardice.

Damned here is that person again. This page looks to me as it is more of what I would have thought the whole thread would look like. More of looking into ones self and thinking about what the I do or say when the "Newbie" (I still hate that word) pokes their head in the door. Some one mentioned old friends moving on. If a community is to survive the community must welcome the new people coming in as attrition will soon eat away at the foundations of even the largest community. I can fully imagine Custer would have been more than happy to welcome a few 100 "Newbies" onto his little hill.

Thank you midwestyankee for starting this thread. To the others that have the fortitude to brave making entries here Well, thank you also.

There was a time, of quite a few years when, I went out of my way to greet every single newcomer, in the newcomer thread. I'd often post just to let a person know they'd been noticed and heard even if they skipped the newcomer thread and posted some other thread but no one else posted. I remembered what it was like for me back then and wanted to make others feel better.

At some point, possibly during a school break, the level of "look at me" and "I just want to argue" rose to the point I just quit. Done. Can't do it anymore. I don't spend as much time here these days either.

But should we? Do we need a welcome committee and oh, what is that shit they call them, "protector" here? As in "Under the protection of deadly domly one" or some shit? Or should we just be adults and deal with how it goes?

I've always thought that our board was so much better than the GB in cordiality and yet took no shit from the trolls. I love that about this board.

Even when some didn't like me here I didn't consider the board cliquish or "mean" to me personally. Possibly because I just don't think like that. I don't think OMG are these people all friends and I'm not friends with them? Are they pm-ing behind our backs, what is going on? Because generally I just don't give a shit. I rarely PM. I didn't come here to play reindeer games of that sort and I hate that stuff when I find out it's been going on.

Do some get more validation here? Yes. Some do. Generally those that do have earned it in some way. Mostly from thoughtful, cogent posts, and sometimes, just from hanging around long enough to be known.

When I came here I figured, "okay X doesn't like me" but fuck em I have just as much right to be here even if it's a mod. I'm going to do me and I'm not going to give up.

Then again I was pretty hopped up on finally finding terms for who and what I was all along, accepting them and me, oh and of course the de rigueur sub frenzy. Fuck Yeah! So probably nothing could have stopped me back then. Nothing! lolz

And now my steroid-ed ass is going to bed.

Stella_Omega said:

But you know it's perfectly possible to defend yourself. Check out Bent, in the "what's it like..." thread;


That's fucking impressive. I wish I could handle myself that well. I don't have the stamina or the stomach for the GB, personally.

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Bent's quote you used as an example? It was in response to my comment in the What's It Like to Be a Dom or Sub? thread.

The entire exchange was as follows -

CutieMouse said:

That's like asking "what's it like to be a mom?" or "what's it like to be a girl?" or "what's it like to be an adult?"

Because my relationships (when I'm in one), look like most healthy relationships. My last partner I met on a "vanilla" dating site; I tend to use those, as I'm interested in people as much as kink. It doesn't matter to me if a guy can do XYZ in bed, if he doesn't have a decent personal library, or know how to cook, or has similar political/social views. As for being primary, or a piece on the side? I prefer to be primary[ish].

I know - it all sounds so very alternative/risque, you don't know how I survive in the real world, do you?

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Bent said:

Thank you for your response, but I do know that you survive in the real world, as do I. You presume, based on my activities on the GB that I'm here to mock you, but you couldn't be further from the truth.

Not that I should feel compelled, but since we're on the subject, I asked because this is who I am (submissive) and was wanting input about how other people handle these situations since I've not actually faced them myself. I was merely curious about the different dynamics, is all. But again, thanks.

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CutieMouse said:

My answer was serious.

My relationships look like any other relationship. Except that I pay attention to stuff like how he likes his coffee, or take care of his house (so he doesn't need to hire a housekeeper), and I'm picky enough about my partners, that I feel comfortable giving The Man anything he wants [sexually].

The fact that my personal relations ships are healthy and fulfilling (for myself and my partner), has nothing to do with my professional life, my social life (outside of my relationship), how I parent, etc. My personal life isn't anyone's business, so I don't discuss it with people who have no business knowing about it.

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Bent said:

Thank you, that was very helpful. I often struggle with feeling like I'm doing life wrong in everyone else's eyes...what if they knew, are they secretly judging me? I find I'm happiest in moments of submission...it's taken me many years to come to this realization. Anyway, I appreciate your honesty.

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Was I a little tongue in cheek at the end? (Gosh golly how ever do I survive as a submissive woman?) Yep. And?

The OP in that thread (Bent) assumed I based my response on having checked out their profile/posting history, and took offense at my comment because hostility was assumed. I rarely (as in almost never) check a poster's profile, posting history or post count. We worked it out, in thread. Except that the fact that it was worked out in thread, wasn't brought up here. The only thing brought up here, was that someone took offense at my personal example of what it's like for me, personally, to be a submissive woman.

Which is interesting to me, because as an "insider" (10 year member of the board) I rarely post here anymore because Lit's BDSM board is no longer a comfortable or friendly place for me to hang out.

I brought her response here to show that it's possible to respond if you feel that you've been attacked for something superfluous -- and the rest of the convo as you have brought it here, shows that people are willing to converse in good faith as often as not

I'm sad to think that you don't feel comfortable here. I'm willing to bet some of it is my fault, I have been an asshole more than once, and it's totally possible that some of it was directed towards you, or in a way that reflected off of you. I'm trying to get better.

bailadora said:

*nods*

Unless I feel I have something relevant to add, or I wish to highlight something that especially resonates with me, I typically stay silent.

To your point about being a regular poster. Yes and no. JBJ, for example. He regularly posts on HT, but I seriously doubt he'd be considered an insider. He's viewed more as the resident troll.

That said, I have to wonder if what some people consider to be an unwelcoming environment has more to do with an ill fit of personalities. Each board has it's own unique flavor and I think we're drawn to those which most closely align to our own manner. The more serious tone of the HT and the BDSM forums are actually what keeps me coming back. While I can be silly, my overall demeanor tends more towards gravity, thus these boards appeal to me more than the frivolity of the PG or the free for all of the GB.

At any rate, it's a theory.

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Well, JBJ is very regularly a part of the landscape.

Yes, I think it's a lot about how personalities fit together an how we look at a place like this and what we want from it.
I have someone near and dear to me who never would pist in this sub forum, because that's not what he wants for an online experience.
We would never have met online.

4yourpleasureiam said:

Damned here is that person again. This page looks to me as it is more of what I would have thought the whole thread would look like. More of looking into ones self and thinking about what the I do or say when the "Newbie" (I still hate that word) pokes their head in the door. Some one mentioned old friends moving on. If a community is to survive the community must welcome the new people coming in as attrition will soon eat away at the foundations of even the largest community. I can fully imagine Custer would have been more than happy to welcome a few 100 "Newbies" onto his little hill.

Thank you midwestyankee for starting this thread. To the others that have the fortitude to brave making entries here Well, thank you also.

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This, is a good example actually.
I get your idea about community and teaching the beginners etc, but I think it's really hard to build a tight community like that around a big topic like BDSM.
There are way to many flavours and actually conflicting ideas about these things.

Many BDSM boards are much more like a community with everyone having rather similar ideas about protocol and the lifestyle.
Someone who comes here wanting that will probably not feel comfortable here and if this place turned into one of those, I would see no reason to come here anymore.
I think one of the good things about lit is that the forums are almost like personalities themselves, so many different kinds of people can find a good fit for them.

LallyH said:

When I see a thread getting personal, I tend to keep quiet. Would it help if I pitched in to defend the one I thought had the right of it, or would that make me the attacker? I don't know. Luckily, I have never been the target of anything personal - someone disagreeing with me in a dismissive way is their right and not on the same scale as the nasty stuff I've seen others on the receiving end of. But I do wonder whether keeping quiet and not rising to someone's defence is cowardice.

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This. The less tolerant we are of nastiness, the less it will happen Not cowardice at all, just... unsure of what would happen in the past when speaking up. NOW we know (yes, that's a Mitchell & Webb reference )

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

This. The less tolerant we are of nastiness, the less it will happen Not cowardice at all, just... unsure of what would happen in the past when speaking up. NOW we know (yes, that's a Mitchell & Webb reference )

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Hang on a minute...are you saying we're the bad guys?

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

This. The less tolerant we are of nastiness, the less it will happen Not cowardice at all, just... unsure of what would happen in the past when speaking up. NOW we know (yes, that's a Mitchell & Webb reference )

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Ironically enough, I remember seeing a thread where a relatively new poster (but not necessarily new visitor) attacked a post by Sir W in a deeply offensive manner. This drew a whole storm of people rushing to his defence, quite rightly, which then got the accusation of the 'clique' sticking together as usual!!

On a completely random note, I remember when I first looked at the list of fora, saw the word 'General' and decided that would obviously be the best board to start on - it was obviously going to be just a general light hearted discussion thread, and a gentle ease-in before rushing headlong into the Fetish or BDSM threads.....I wonder how many others make the same mistake

LallyH said:

On a completely random note, I remember when I first looked at the list of fora, saw the word 'General' and decided that would obviously be the best board to start on - it was obviously going to be just a general light hearted discussion thread, and a gentle ease-in before rushing headlong into the Fetish or BDSM threads.....I wonder how many others make the same mistake

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An outrageous calumny, madam! The GB is composed of none but the upright and just...

Late to the party and not a huge amount to add.

There are some threads in here where people come in an post something that potentially doesn't belong here and people jump on them like they just killed their cat. I sometimes do worry that it gives the wrong image of the people in here. Most of the folks I have met and spoken to in here are not like the people I sometimes see stamping down on those kind of threads.

Yes, people should probably read the rules but, at the same time, a polite "I think you're in the wrong forum" is better than some of the responses we see in here.

That's just me though

DesEsseintes said:

An outrageous calumny, madam! The GB is composed of none but the upright and just...

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In other fora it is called things like "Bar and Grill", "small Talk".... in one it is even called "The Pit".
(Judging from the amount of racist rednecks there, it should have been called "The Cesspool" ..... the rest of that forum is OK, but I sure stay out of the pit)

DesEsseintes said:

An outrageous calumny, madam! The GB is composed of none but the self-righteous and the unjust...

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fyp.




eek: kidding )

Malich said:

Late to the party and not a huge amount to add.

There are some threads in here where people come in an post something that potentially doesn't belong here and people jump on them like they just killed their cat. I sometimes do worry that it gives the wrong image of the people in here. Most of the folks I have met and spoken to in here are not like the people I sometimes see stamping down on those kind of threads.

Yes, people should probably read the rules but, at the same time, a polite "I think you're in the wrong forum" is better than some of the responses we see in here.

That's just me though

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from what I have seen, this happens everywhere, even the PG. and I admit to taking part in it. it's kind of like n00b hazing, in my mind, it's the verbal equivalent of putting them in a headlock, giving them a noogie, and yelling, "Welcome to the Playground!!" but I mean it as an inclusive thing, not as a way to run new people off.
what fun would that be?

Back on track for a moment...

Lots of people are talking about dangerous posters, or people seeking wank fodder, or just posting off topic jokes, or well-meaning but ignorant types, etc, etc. I get how all that is annoying, and as Honey says such people are dealt with in every forum. Others have talked, rightly, about not wanting to hold a newbie's hand every time, or of how an ignored post does not mean dislike for the poster. None of that would put me off, or others of whom I know. But for me at least, that is not what I am talking about.

Someone I know and respect hugely, whose name I shall not mention here because she has not posted and will probably not wish to, has a deep, sincere and abiding interest in D/s and s/m matters. Several months ago - possibly a year ago - she joined in a thread here quite sincerely and with all the usual caveats about 'personal opinion', etc, etc. The thread quickly turned into a slagging-off session with insults thrown at people who presume to tell others how to live their lives, and criticism of 'twue subs and twue doms'...As far as I know, she has not been back since. I do know that she has posted thoughtful and intelligent discussions on BDSM topics in other fora. I know that, as with me, her interests and what first drew her to Lit ought to make this her natural home. But she does not feel that it can be.

I am sure that was a rare occasion, and although I have not seen anything like it elsewhere in over a year, I am sure the like has occurred in other fora. But it was a shame. And I did not want people to kid themselves that this was all about tender-hearted/ignorant/frightened newbies, or trolls, and that there was therefore nothing whatsoever to reproach themselves with. I have had PMs from people in the last few days with long-term real life interest in BDSM, who say that they could not bring themselves to post here any more. Maybe that is their problem and not an issue for the board to consider - I don't know. But let's at least wonder why that might be and whether, in particular, an understandable wish not to force individuals into neatly labelled boxes has meant that those of us whose place on the spectrum IS fairly clear cut and 'traditional' (which OF COURSE does not make us 'better' or 'truer' than anyone else)can sometimes feel as if we are defending the indefensible.

I've already said more than enough here and I really didn't mean to. I won't post again, you'll be relieved to know - this is your home not mine and you must do with it as you wish! Just some sincere thoughts.

DesEsseintes said:

Back on track for a moment...

Lots of people are talking about dangerous posters, or people seeking wank fodder, or just posting off topic jokes, or well-meaning but ignorant types, etc, etc. I get how all that is annoying, and as Honey says such people are dealt with in every forum. Others have talked, rightly, about not wanting to hold a newbie's hand every time, or of how an ignored post does not mean dislike for the poster. None of that would put me off, or others of whom I know. But for me at least, that is not what I am talking about.

Someone I know and respect hugely, whose name I shall not mention here because she has not posted and will probably not wish to, has a deep, sincere and abiding interest in D/s and s/m matters. Several months ago - possibly a year ago - she joined in a thread here quite sincerely and with all the usual caveats about 'personal opinion', etc, etc. The thread quickly turned into a slagging-off session with insults thrown at people who presume to tell others how to live their lives, and criticism of 'twue subs and twue doms'...As far as I know, she has not been back since. I do know that she has posted thoughtful and intelligent discussions on BDSM topics in other fora. I know that, as with me, her interests and what first drew her to Lit ought to make this her natural home. But she does not feel that it can be.

I am sure that was a rare occasion, and although I have not seen anything like it elsewhere in over a year, I am sure the like has occurred in other fora. But it was a shame. And I did not want people to kid themselves that this was all about tender-hearted/ignorant/frightened newbies, or trolls, and that there was therefore nothing whatsoever to reproach themselves with. I have had PMs from people in the last few days with long-term real life interest in BDSM, who say that they could not bring themselves to post here any more. Maybe that is their problem and not an issue for the board to consider - I don't know. But let's at least wonder why that might be and whether, in particular, an understandable wish not to force individuals into neatly labelled boxes has meant that those of us whose place on the spectrum IS fairly clear cut and 'traditional' (which OF COURSE does not make us 'better' or 'truer' than anyone else)can sometimes feel as if we are defending the indefensible.

I've already said more than enough here and I really didn't mean to. I won't post again, you'll be relieved to know - this is your home not mine and you must do with it as you wish! Just some sincere thoughts.

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The paragraph I bolded is put more eloquently than I could and it's precisely why I started this thread.

Des, you have hardly said more than you should have. You're a knowledgeable and articulate fellow - we need more of you around here, not less.

DesEsseintes said:

I've already said more than enough here and I really didn't mean to. I won't post again, you'll be relieved to know - this is your home not mine and you must do with it as you wish! Just some sincere thoughts.

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Actually I think this is the part that some existing BDSM Talkers are wishing to address, I think they might appreciate thoughtful, interesting new posters, much like we do newbies on the playground, but only if we fit into their groove ...either fitting into their lives or so interestingly spouting stuff they can disagree with that it gets the pulse moving a little with that 'can't go to bed, someone on the internet is wrong' feeling we probably all love.

perhaps I don't post here also because I use this site to play / flirt and entertain myself more than to think deeply about things, perhaps this board does not befit my usage ..to be honest I saw someone up thread refer to the playground as superficial and felt momentarily taken aback even though it's true. It's that judged feeling again. There are some deep and meaningful interactions held there too...not many though

I do know there are some who have posted on this thread that I recognise as having really enjoyed reading over the last year, although we have never interacted...Stella, Meekme and Malik to name but 3

As a final note, in this brain dump posting: I think it might be because the control aspect of my sexuality is so important to me, and something I simply do not feel comfortable discussing with RL friends that postings in this board would unduly discomfit me if met with no response...or a scathing one. I know we've held interesting D/s discussions in the playground and I've very much enjoyed them...but I'm not lifestyle and my impression is the BDSM board is.

sorry, disregard.

may_I_please said:

Actually I think this is the part that some existing BDSM Talkers are wishing to address, I think they might appreciate thoughtful, interesting new posters, much like we do newbies on the playground, but only if we fit into their groove ...either fitting into their lives or so interestingly spouting stuff they can disagree with that it gets the pulse moving a little with that 'can't go to bed, someone on the internet is wrong' feeling we probably all love.

perhaps I don't post here also because I use this site to play / flirt and entertain myself more than to think deeply about things, perhaps this board does not befit my usage ..to be honest I saw someone up thread refer to the playground as superficial and felt momentarily taken aback even though it's true. It's that judged feeling again. There are some deep and meaningful interactions held there too...not many though

I do know there are some who have posted on this thread that I recognise as having really enjoyed reading over the last year, although we have never interacted...Stella, Meekme and Malik to name but 3

As a final note, in this brain dump posting: I think it might be because the control aspect of my sexuality is so important to me, and something I simply do not feel comfortable discussing with RL friends that postings in this board would unduly discomfit me if met with no response...or a scathing one. I know we've held interesting D/s discussions in the playground and I've very much enjoyed them...but I'm not lifestyle and my impression is the BDSM board is.

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Regarding the part that I bolded: just as there's a whole spectrum of behaviors and activities that fall under the umbrella term BDSM, the term "lifestyle" comprises a spectrum as well. I don't know exactly your intent when you say "lifestyle" but for this post, let's assume that you meant "lifestyle" to describe partners who practice dominance/submission power exchange all day every day. You might have meant something different - and if you did, please come back so we can get it right.

I can hardly speak for everyone who posts here regularly, but I know of quite a few people here for whom some subset of BDSM does define their daily lives and several for whom this is not at all the case. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that only a minority of regulars here live a 24 hours per day "lifestyle" whereby their relationships are defined by dominance and submission. Many of us are kinksters whose daily lives look no different than the most vanilla folks around, but whose bedroom activities are anything but. Some of us live lives such as CutieMouse described above in the post quoted by Stella: anyone looking on would be hard pressed to observe the BDSM character of her relationship(s) yet service and submission are precisely what they're about - on her terms, of course.

Maybe this is one misperception that is keeping some people from posting here. I do know that there is a generally held opinion among many regulars that online-only relationships are somehow not quite as genuine as those with skin-to-skin interactions. I have held this belief myself, though I've decided to dump it.

HellBenttoo said:

sorry, disregard.

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I saw your post, and still have it up in another window. I think you should put it back.

I am not acquainted with Mr. HellBent, but I know Des and May well enough to feel comfortable saying that they would be valuable additions to this board, if my vote counts for anything.

Especially because they both have irl experience in the lifestyle, I think it would be a damn shame to lose their voices here.

Wild_Honey_66 said:

I saw your post, and still have it up in another window. I think you should put it back.

I am not acquainted with Mr. HellBent, but I know Des and May well enough to feel comfortable saying that they would be valuable additions to this board, if my vote counts for anything.

Especially because they both have irl experience in the lifestyle, I think it would be a damn shame to lose their voices here.

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I agree on all counts. Thanks for saying this.

midwestyankee said:

I agree on all counts. Thanks for saying this.

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and by "lifestyle," I am referring to the spectrum, as I know that Des and May have occupied very different places on it, both of which are valid and true.

Wild_Honey_66 said:

and by "lifestyle," I am referring to the spectrum, as I know that Des and May have occupied very different places on it, both of which are valid and true.

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And this is exactly why I hope they'll both stick around. And you, too, by the way.