#metoo

What I can't understand about discussions like this, is the contingent of men who, instead of being concerned about the clear and obvious problem women face, are far more concerned about how gaining consent might impact their sex lives and land them with false rape allegations. Given rapists generally don't get caught, this seems highly unlikely, but the average self involved toss monkey wont acknowledge that or care about those particular stats. Rather than being the rapey problem, lads, whyndont we concentrate on what the bloody woman wants? Learn to read the body language of discomfort, and prioritise it over your need to get your dick wet. This week, I hugged a colleague in a group where this was the norm (I'm not fond of it, but I do try to fit in), and even as I did it, I saw him stiffen up. He wasn't comfortable. He didn't argue, he even smiled, but he was not okay with being touched. I apologised to him afterwards and I won't make the same mistake again. Consent is about giving a fuck about the other person's experience and respecting their space. If you don't, then stay out of the dating pool, so that women can start to trust again. Men also need their space respected. Just because you're happy to suck a dick, doesnt mean you're up for anything. #metoo was a chance to learn a new skill and become more aware. Hopefully it'll make our society a little less dangerous and hostile for women, and in fact for all of us. Consent is not a pain in the arse, it's a beautiful thing.

JasonClearwater said:

What I can't understand about discussions like this, is the contingent of men who, instead of being concerned about the clear and obvious problem women face, are far more concerned about how gaining consent might impact their sex lives and land them with false rape allegations. Given rapists generally don't get caught, this seems highly unlikely, but the average self involved toss monkey wont acknowledge that or care about those particular stats. Rather than being the rapey problem, lads, whyndont we concentrate on what the bloody woman wants? Learn to read the body language of discomfort, and prioritise it over your need to get your dick wet. This week, I hugged a colleague in a group where this was the norm (I'm not fond of it, but I do try to fit in), and even as I did it, I saw him stiffen up. He wasn't comfortable. He didn't argue, he even smiled, but he was not okay with being touched. I apologised to him afterwards and I won't make the same mistake again. Consent is about giving a fuck about the other person's experience and respecting their space. If you don't, then stay out of the dating pool, so that women can start to trust again. Men also need their space respected. Just because you're happy to suck a dick, doesnt mean you're up for anything. #metoo was a chance to learn a new skill and become more aware. Hopefully it'll make our society a little less dangerous and hostile for women, and in fact for all of us. Consent is not a pain in the arse, it's a beautiful thing.

Click to expand...

Well said. If you can't work out whether a woman is consenting to something or not, maybe you need to consider whether you're the right person to be in that situation in the first instance.

What I can't understand about discussions like this, is the contingent of men who, instead of being concerned about the clear and obvious problem women face, are far more concerned about how gaining consent might impact their sex lives and land them with false rape allegations.

Click to expand...

Ahem.

Women face a lot of sexual assaults and harassment. Fact.

Should we never discuss the much more rare cases of false accusations then? There IS a problem there. That could ruin people's lives. Should it never be discussed because women have it harder?

I mean, what I don't understand in your post is why a male who's concerned for his safety and possibility of being exploited is instantly "One of those males who is only thinking to get laid and doesn't care about anything but that".

This is such a shallow thinking it makes me sick. You're painting your little world black and white. "If he's talking about false rape allegations then he's CLEARLY not concerned about women."
Can I be concerned about BOTH problems? Please? Will you allow me? Thank you.

JasonClearwater said:

Rather than being the rapey problem, lads, whyndont we concentrate on what the bloody woman wants? Learn to read the body language of discomfort, and prioritise it over your need to get your dick wet.

Click to expand...

Using a rough weighted average of the per capita amount of rapes in Europe (I used 45 because even though the rate is less than 20 p/100k in most European countries, the UK, Iceland and Sweden have disturbingly high rates), multiplying the rate by 15 to account for all potential under-reporting, and then assuming that every single instance of rape is done exclusively by one man each , and assuming that 100% of people found guilty of rape are actually guilty, you end up with >99.4% of men in Europe not being, or ever being, rapists. Of course the actual number will be much higher because a lot of those numbers are exaggerations of reality for simplicity. I think that number can be reasonably applied to the entire western world.

Point being: Yeah I agree with the overarching point, but hugging somebody without realizing they're awkward about it is statistically [obviously?] not a comparable analogy. It's not something people just somehow casually mix up. Alleging that 'men' as a whole demographic are potential rapists and seemingly need to be taught not to rape people because we're just too stupid to 'get the message' is not some sort of helpful conversation, it's nonsense and I wager that if that idea were mass-propagated it would actually hurt more people than it helps because you're going to muddy the conversational waters with half-bigoted nonsense that immediately closes off most people's minds to whatever it is you're saying.

Source:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/EDN-20171123-1?inheritRedirect=true
http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do

Blue said:

Using a rough weighted average of the per capita amount of rapes in Europe (I used 45 because even though the rate is less than 20 p/100k in most European countries, the UK, Iceland and Sweden have disturbingly high rates), multiplying the rate by 15 to account for all potential under-reporting, and then assuming that every single instance of rape is done exclusively by one man each , and assuming that 100% of people found guilty of rape are actually guilty, you end up with >99.4% of men in Europe not being, or ever being, rapists.

[snip]

Source:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/EDN-20171123-1?inheritRedirect=true
http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do

Click to expand...

Your second link is broken, and you seem to have a couple of major errors in your calculations.

45/100k multiplied by 15 would be 675 cases of rape, per 100k capita, per year.

With roughly 50% of the population being male, that's 675/50000 = 0.0135 cases of rape per male, per year. Based on that number, we could say that (100% - 1.35%) = 98.65% of males aren't rapists in any given year. I'm guessing your 99.4% might have come from forgetting to convert from "per capita" to "per male capita".

The bigger problem, though, is that you're treating "per capita per year" stats as if they were "per capita per lifetime". The average male life expectancy for the EU is pretty close to 80 years. So 0.0135 cases of rape per male per year would translate to 1.08 cases of rape per male per lifetime - i.e. under the assumptions in your post, the lifetime rate of rape per male would be more than 100%.

In reality, it's not quite that high, because you (quite sensibly, in context) highballed the numbers for reported rate and under-reporting factor. But it's still a LOT higher than the rate you stated, because "per capita per year" vs. "per male capita per lifetime" throws things out by a factor of 160x.

Blue said:

Point being: Yeah I agree with the overarching point, but hugging somebody without realizing they're awkward about it is statistically [obviously?] not a comparable analogy. It's not something people just somehow casually mix up. Alleging that 'men' as a whole demographic are potential rapists and seemingly need to be taught not to rape people because we're just too stupid to 'get the message' is not some sort of helpful conversation, it's nonsense and I wager that if that idea were mass-propagated it would actually hurt more people than it helps because you're going to muddy the conversational waters with half-bigoted nonsense that immediately closes off most people's minds to whatever it is you're saying.

Click to expand...

I don't understand the outrage. Women said, we're not always on board with what you're doing, and it's fucking up our lives, and our response should be, oh fuck, how do I make sure I'm not one of the ones making you uncomfortable?

This insistence on NOT ME, I'M NOT A RAPIST, is what fucks me off, to be honest. I know not one single woman who's not been raped, assaulted or pressured into sexual activity she didn't want to participate in.

If you choose, as a man, to take offence, rather than listening to the horrifying statistics, and the genuine fear and concerns women have, then that's on you. But when someone tells me I've fucked up, gotten in their space, made them uncomfortable? I don't turn that back on them and accuse them of being mean to my over-sensitive feelings.

I make sure I don't do the same thing again.

Blue said:

Alleging that 'men' as a whole demographic are potential rapists and seemingly need to be taught not to rape people because we're just too stupid to 'get the message' is not some sort of helpful conversation, it's nonsense and I wager that if that idea were mass-propagated it would actually hurt more people than it helps because you're going to muddy the conversational waters with half-bigoted nonsense that immediately closes off most people's minds to whatever it is you're saying.

Click to expand...

So to you, it sounds like, it's unreasonable for men and boys to be taught not to rape.

Does that mean that to you, it's reasonable that nearly every girl and woman in our society is taught, from before they even fully understand what sex is, not to *be raped*? Because that's what happens now. Instead of people being told "Don't commit this crime," the potential VICTIMS are being held responsible for not "allowing" that crime to happen to them. And they are being held responsible, in some cases, from the age of three or four, or even younger.

No one's saying men are "too stupid." People are saying let's put the responsibility for preventing the crime where it belongs: On the potential CRIMINALS. No one bitches about being people taught not to steal, not to do drugs, etc. No one says "Oh, so you're saying we're too stupid to know better." Why is rape and sexual assault treated differently?

Whoops, missed this paragraph earlier...

Blue said:

Alleging that 'men' as a whole demographic are potential rapists and seemingly need to be taught not to rape people because we're just too stupid to 'get the message' is not some sort of helpful conversation, it's nonsense and I wager that if that idea were mass-propagated it would actually hurt more people than it helps

Click to expand...

I would take that wager.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...saults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article1359241/

"Six months later, Deputy Chief Doug LePard says the Don't Be That Guy campaign has contributed to a turnaround in statistics on sexual offences in Vancouver. The rate dropped in 2011 by about 10 per cent, the first time in several years it had gone down."

(caveat that many factors can affect crime rates, so this on its own doesn't confirm cause-and-effect, but a 10% decrease is not to be sneezed at.)

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0886260509354881

"The study conducted involved assessing students from a Southeastern public university during two academic years, after their participation in an all-male sexual assault peer education program. The study findings revealed that 79% of 184 college men reported attitude change, behavior change, or both. Furthermore, a multistage inductive analysis revealed that after seeing The Men’s Program, men intervened to prevent rapes from happening. Participants also modified their behavior to avoid committing sexual assault when they or a potential partner were under the influence of alcohol."

I know not one single woman who's not been raped, assaulted or pressured into sexual activity she didn't want to participate in.

Click to expand...

Sucks to be you, is all I can say.
Such a fucking negativity cloud around you it's choking.

If you choose, as a man, to take offence, rather than listening to the horrifying statistics, and the genuine fear and concerns women have, then that's on you. But when someone tells me I've fucked up, gotten in their space, made them uncomfortable? I don't turn that back on them and accuse them of being mean to my over-sensitive feelings.

Click to expand...

Aren't you doing this exact thing in this post?

People tell you that you've fucked up, and you turn that around on them and call them out on being shitty men who don't care about women.

So to you, it sounds like, it's unreasonable for men and boys to be taught not to rape.

Click to expand...

Every man, boy, girl and woman - every person in general - are taught from young age not to assault others. Ok, not every, but among those who don't get taught that there's no gender differentiation.

Also I wonder how would you teach a little boy "not to rape"? When's the time? Do you start with describing an underaged person what rape is? I'm not sure it would do ANY good, and probably more harm.

Also since when do we use the word "rape" to describe any unwanted physical contact? That's insane. Rape is rape - it's when someone pushes you down on the floor, rips your pants off and puts his dick inside of you or otherwise performs an unconsensual sexual act. Other things may be called an assault, but they are not rape.

Bramblethorn said:

*Corrections*

Click to expand...

Oops thanks.
Sometimes I regret not doing statistics in high school.
The other link is one of the tables linked on the first source, the spreadsheet of various crime rates in various EU countries.

On your other post: That's cool to know and I support that campaign, enhancing education isn't the sentiment I'm trying to argue against, see below for more clarity.

JasonClearwater said:

[...]

Click to expand...

My issue is that you alleged that men as an entire demographic are so ignorant on the issue of consent that there is an implied norm of 'casual' [though supposedly non-malicious] rape or at least other minor assault in our countries due to it, my response was trying to show you that view of reality is objectively not true. My basis for that is because you said this which in the context it was said, indicates that you think there is at least a decent amount of men who just casually ignore consent and inadvertently assault women:
"Rather than being the rapey problem, lads, whyndont we concentrate on what the bloody woman wants? Learn to read the body language of discomfort, and prioritise it over your need to get your dick wet."

Secondly: The difference between your proposed solution to sexual assault and Brabmlethorn's data is classic scalpel vs hammer; B's is aimed at enhancing awareness of correct behaviour which targets specific mentalities that are known to contribute to assault and actually promoting self reflection. Your proposal, as I think you've made clear with the pleas to emotion, seems to be to heap a collective burden of guilt onto men as though they're all personally responsible for rapes that occur, even if they didn't do it. Men are individually responsible for making sure they don't assault anybody, they aren't responsible for other men who do.

Honestly I think that if we put your idea into practice it would actually be more effective at preventing sexual assault in the long term. To me indoctrination generally seems to be better at preventing certain behaviours than education does but, y'know, freedom and whatever.

Blue said:

Oops thanks.
Sometimes I regret not doing statistics in high school.
The other link is one of the tables linked on the first source, the spreadsheet of various crime rates in various EU countries.

On your other post: That's cool to know and I support that campaign, enhancing education isn't the sentiment I'm trying to argue against, see below for more clarity.

My issue is that you alleged that men as an entire demographic are so ignorant on the issue of consent that there is an implied norm of 'casual' [though supposedly non-malicious] rape or at least other minor assault in our countries due to it, my response was trying to show you that view of reality is objectively not true. My basis for that is because you said this which in the context it was said, indicates that you think there is at least a decent amount of men who just casually ignore consent and inadvertently assault women:
"Rather than being the rapey problem, lads, whyndont we concentrate on what the bloody woman wants? Learn to read the body language of discomfort, and prioritise it over your need to get your dick wet."

Secondly: The difference between your proposed solution to sexual assault and Brabmlethorn's data is classic scalpel vs hammer; B's is aimed at enhancing awareness of correct behaviour which targets specific mentalities that are known to contribute to assault and actually promoting self reflection. Your proposal, as I think you've made clear with the pleas to emotion, seems to be to heap a collective burden of guilt onto men as though they're all personally responsible for rapes that occur, even if they didn't do it. Men are individually responsible for making sure they don't assault anybody, they aren't responsible for other men who do.

Honestly I think that if we put your idea into practice it would actually be more effective at preventing sexual assault in the long term. To me indoctrination generally seems to be better at preventing certain behaviours than education does but, y'know, freedom and whatever.

Click to expand...

I think JC's point is more that because almost all women experience some form of sexual violence or harassment in their lives (sorry Nezhul, but that is just a thing), and they're beginning to get pissed about it, men shouldn't see that as some sort of threat or constraint for men as a category.
And given that it's mostly men who are raping mostly women, I actually do sorta think it's incumbent on all men to try and change that situation. So, yeah, they are individually responsible for stopping shit when they see it. They are individually responsible for shutting down rape jokes. They are individually responsible for telling their mates they're dicks when they harass some girl who has the temerity to be in public on her own. Because it's really freaking difficult for the women concerned to do that - we DO, because we eventually get pissed, but you never know if THIS is going to be the time you respond to that shit, and some guy isn't going to so 'oh, yeah, sorry' but instead decide to smash your head into a brick wall. For too long, guys who aren't rapists have just said 'Nah, not my problem' ... and that's how the cultural context continues to exist.

Nezhul said:

Sucks to be you, is all I can say.
Such a fucking negativity cloud around you it's choking.

Aren't you doing this exact thing in this post?

People tell you that you've fucked up, and you turn that around on them and call them out on being shitty men who don't care about women.

Every man, boy, girl and woman - every person in general - are taught from young age not to assault others. Ok, not every, but among those who don't get taught that there's no gender differentiation.

Also I wonder how would you teach a little boy "not to rape"? When's the time? Do you start with describing an underaged person what rape is? I'm not sure it would do ANY good, and probably more harm.

Also since when do we use the word "rape" to describe any unwanted physical contact? That's insane. Rape is rape - it's when someone pushes you down on the floor, rips your pants off and puts his dick inside of you or otherwise performs an unconsensual sexual act. Other things may be called an assault, but they are not rape.

Click to expand...

(a) Most of the women you know have also been sexually assaulted or harassed or otherwise had their sexual safety or autonomy threatened. They've just chosen to not tell you about it.

(b) Culture is full of the 'men can't control themselves' rhetoric. Kids learn this from a very early age. The notion that men 'can't control themselves' when sexually 'provoked' underpins a great deal of rape culture. And yes, you can teach kids 'not to rape' when they're young ... it just starts with the notion that anyone should have the right to consent or NOT consent to physical contact. So if your kids say 'No, I don't want a hug', you don't hug them. And you teach them to have some respect for other living things. And you teach them empathy.
And when they start being interested in sex, you make sure that they understand that everyone has to be enjoying whatever is happening ... this is especially important for boys, because trust me, there's plenty of research out to demonstrate that young men don't really give a toss about whether the women they're with are enjoying the sex they're having.

base10 said:

Deep breath: fuck it I'm going to wade into this

BDSM without trust can't exist. It is entirely built on trust and communication.

To me, it's what makes this all a game(I know everybody agrees). To take the control away from someone BDSM requires, I can only do that with someone I completely trust (and who completely trusts me). She has to be an amazingly strong woman who has thought through the idea of giving up control and explicitly decided yes.

Anything less than that, yes you are taking advantage of someone at best, abusing them at worst. I know what I would want to do to someone who abused a family member or someone I care about and tried to justify it under kink. If it's kink, you're going it wrong to the point of abuse.

Not every accusation is a conviction (we have courts for that), but every accusation comes from something that happened. I fucking love the strong woman who aren't going to take shit anymore. Those are the types of woman I'd be proud to discuss kink with.

Click to expand...

Well said.

KimGordon67 said:

(a) Most of the women you know have also been sexually assaulted or harassed or otherwise had their sexual safety or autonomy threatened. They've just chosen to not tell you about it.

Click to expand...

I know your POW. That you know everything about all other women and men know nothing about any women period.
That's just plainly not accurate. Having a cunt doesn't make you omniscient, nor does it make you an expert on gender problems. Reading a bunch of articles - doesn't too.

Thankfully, most women get to leave their lives without being raped or assaulted more than any man does. Most HUMANS get "assaulted", exploited or hurt sexually at some point in some measure - that much is true. Women get it more often - also true. It's still not even a majority who go through that, and Thank Fuck for that. But your painting MOST women as victims by default - is plainly insulting.

I told you as much before, but I guess you need a reinforcer.

Kim, dear.
Please crawl in your dark gloomy rapey world where you come from and don't reply to my posts. I'm talking to normal humans, not over-the-top womanz who pretend to be super-experienced or knowledgeable in everything like yourself.

(b)

Click to expand...

That's pretty much exactly what I said. You teach kids to be good humans - NO ONE teaches them "not to rape". Not raping people, as well as not killing them, not stealing from them and not burning their homes - comes implicitly with good upbringing. You never go "Son, you should never kill peoples." That's just not how educating a kid goes. I specifically criticize the notion of "Teaching boys not to rape" which sounds like something said by a person just returning from a child-less lesbian feminist parade.
But you miss the point, as always.

KimGordon67 said:

(a) Most of the women you know have also been sexually assaulted or harassed or otherwise had their sexual safety or autonomy threatened. They've just chosen to not tell you about it.

Click to expand...

Yes, this.

KimGordon67 said:

(b) Culture is full of the 'men can't control themselves' rhetoric. Kids learn this from a very early age. The notion that men 'can't control themselves' when sexually 'provoked' underpins a great deal of rape culture. And yes, you can teach kids 'not to rape' when they're young ... it just starts with the notion that anyone should have the right to consent or NOT consent to physical contact. So if your kids say 'No, I don't want a hug', you don't hug them. And you teach them to have some respect for other living things. And you teach them empathy.
And when they start being interested in sex, you make sure that they understand that everyone has to be enjoying whatever is happening ... this is especially important for boys, because trust me, there's plenty of research out to demonstrate that young men don't really give a toss about whether the women they're with are enjoying the sex they're having.

Click to expand...

I am happy that my kids’ school is partnering with Planned Parenthood to offer consent based sexual education. Hopefully kids also learn this at home, but we all know that is lacking for the very reasons explain here.

I know very few women who have not been subjected to unwanted touching and/or unwanted aggressive excplicit verbal harassment by men (“just flirting” I’m sure ). The number of women I know who have been molested, assaulted, and raped is devasting (#metoo, by the way). This is endemic and it cannot be ignored away.

The number of women I know who have been molested, assaulted, and raped is devasting

Click to expand...

It's like saying "The number of men I know who were bumped into on the street, insulted, shouted at, or beaten and put into hospital is devastating"

My point is - you should view those points separately.

I do agree that the number of women who got unwantedly molested at some point in any measure is big. Can we actually include this statistics when talking about rape? HELL. FUCKING. NO. It's like grouping up a bar fight with murder statistics.

Also, when you talk about problems like being molested or verbally assaulted - do you think that MEN don't have those problems? Somehow you make it shound like gender-exclusive.
You know how many young girls "play" by teasing and leading on a boy and then laughing at him and humiliating him in front of their girlfriends? A LOT. No it doesn't justify or even out rape, but I can see how it can provoke it at least sometimes.

How about an entire slice of women who go to a date and then run away in the middle of it, leaving the young man with a $100 restaurant bill? I personally got cheated like that - went to a first date, met her in the diner, she went to the bathroom 15 minutes in and then never returned. And I found that before I arrived she had a hefty meal and a few glasses of expensive champaigne for $120 total, which I was now expected to pay for, because clearly I was with her. Which is by the way more in my country than it is in US.
After I had this experience I found out it's a HUGE problem and some females even share info on the net how to better scam "losers" that way. It's recommended to never go anywhere you have to spend money on your first date with a random person, but the problem is you don't really think about it when you invite a girl on a date.

More tame example would be A LOT of women who milk their boyfriend for money constantly, having him not only pay for meals and entertainment, but buy regular presents too - while spending $0 outside of birthday gifts themselves. And it's considered almost NORMAL and expected by many, many people. Isn't that a form of abuse?
Don't get me wrong, I like giving presents to an extent, but I saw and heard of very extreme cases.

That happens. A lot. Do you see men crying on every corner about our gender being victimized?

How about classical dating? The process is FAR from being gender-equal in most western countries. Somehow you don't see men telling everyone it's a huge problem. And meanwhile even the act of approaching a girl is a pretty traumatizing experience that a lot of men struggle with and have to overcome to actually date. Many women don't approach initial dating with any measure of understanding (the majority do play fair of course). It's a fact that men are recommended to "get used to" and "not pay attention to", to "keep trying".

My point is: YES, women have many problem. And YES, no one here argues that rape is a HUGE problem that is mostly gender-specific. But please, don't bunch it up with things like "being touched the wrong way" or "Being called rude things" because those are NOT gender specific. In fact, as molesting and verbal and emotional assault goes, I'd say that women are keeping foot in foot with men in that department.

And what I'm saying is that while women definitely have problems, it doesn't mean that men have no women-created problems. Back to the topic and opening post, false accusations and sexual blackmail is something that malicious women DO use against men far more often than vice versa. It IS a problem just as big and important as some of the women-specific ones.
You are NOT justified in brushing it off because of rape. People who suffer from it are NOT rapists but normal guys. Just like women who exploit it are probably not rape victims.

Instead you are basically coming here and saying "You men should shut up with your problems because rape is worse and you cause it."

KimGordon67 said:

And given that it's mostly men who are raping mostly women, I actually do sorta think it's incumbent on all men to try and change that situation. So, yeah, they are individually responsible for stopping shit when they see it. They are individually responsible for shutting down rape jokes. They are individually responsible for telling their mates they're dicks when they harass some girl who has the temerity to be in public on her own.

Click to expand...

You've made a double standard there, and an argument through implication that I doubt you meant to make.
We're talking specifically about rape, not harassment. Obviously harassment shouldn't happen but it's hardly comparable with rape, rape is on a way higher tier of 'bad' than unwanted remarks or touching, but even if they were it would still be dishonest to say men are responsible for preventing X because not all men do X, and in the case of rape; extraordinarily few men commit rape, men also make up the majority of barfight instigators, murderers, drug pushers and suicides but you would never say that just because the times those harms occur men are generally the perpetrators - (to a comparable percentage that rape occurs at might I add, 96% worldwide for murders) - then that makes men collectively responsible to any degree for their perpetration. Simply because at least in those cases you accept that it's not reflective of the entire male demographic. Which is the double standard.

Btw I am not saying men should avoid preventing unequal treatment/illegalities/whatever else, I think everybody should chip in to prevent such things, my problem is in that by saying men are responsible for preventing rape you're leading onto that implied argument I mentioned: it implies that every guy bears an amount of responsibility for any rapes that do occur because we as a demographic didn't do enough to prevent it, even if we individually couldn't. If you translated that into a courtroom it would mean we would have to find not only the perpetrator of the assault guilty, but every man in the vicinity/city/country/planet somewhat culpable too and punish them also.

KimGordon67 said:

(b) Culture is full of the 'men can't control themselves' rhetoric. Kids learn this from a very early age. The notion that men 'can't control themselves' when sexually 'provoked' underpins a great deal of rape culture.

Click to expand...

We all hear it, and nobody believes it and it doesn't translate into actual actions because we propagate the idea that people are responsible for their actions way more. See bramblethorn's corrections of my previous post for proof.

Unless we're talking about Saudi Arabia and other Islamic fundamentalist countries where they actually do have that. I imagine I'm telling you what you already know here but the religious justifications for Burkas, Niqabs, Hijabs, women not being allowed out in public alone, etc is based on this idea that it is to protect women from men who 'cant control themselves' and will obviously attack a woman when he sees a bit of ankle. Which is also why they persecute female victims of sexual assault, they presume the woman was at fault for not being modest enough and so invited the attack. That's a rape culture for you.

KimGordon67 said:

And yes, you can teach kids 'not to rape' when they're young ... it just starts with the notion that anyone should have the right to consent or NOT consent to physical contact. [..] this is especially important for boys, because trust me, there's plenty of research out to demonstrate that young men don't really give a toss about whether the women they're with are enjoying the sex they're having.

Click to expand...

You're equating not enjoying sex with rape.

Nezhul said:

I know your POW. That you know everything about all other women and men know nothing about any women period.
That's just plainly not accurate. Having a cunt doesn't make you omniscient, nor does it make you an expert on gender problems. Reading a bunch of articles - doesn't too.

Thankfully, most women get to leave their lives without being raped or assaulted more than any man does. Most HUMANS get "assaulted", exploited or hurt sexually at some point in some measure - that much is true. Women get it more often - also true. It's still not even a majority who go through that, and Thank Fuck for that. But your painting MOST women as victims by default - is plainly insulting.

I told you as much before, but I guess you need a reinforcer.

Kim, dear.
Please crawl in your dark gloomy rapey world where you come from and don't reply to my posts. I'm talking to normal humans, not over-the-top womanz who pretend to be super-experienced or knowledgeable in everything like yourself.

That's pretty much exactly what I said. You teach kids to be good humans - NO ONE teaches them "not to rape". Not raping people, as well as not killing them, not stealing from them and not burning their homes - comes implicitly with good upbringing. You never go "Son, you should never kill peoples." That's just not how educating a kid goes. I specifically criticize the notion of "Teaching boys not to rape" which sounds like something said by a person just returning from a child-less lesbian feminist parade.
But you miss the point, as always.

Click to expand...

(a) You're young. Therefore I"m hazarding a guess that most of the female friends you have are young. They've still got a lot of life to go yet, so we can't actually say that they aren't going to ever be assaulted etc.
(a1) Do you ever actually ask them.
(a2) In terms of assessing the likelihood of sexual assault, research trumps 'what people tell me'.
(b) I never said the women were 'victims' - you're ascribing that role, not me.

Blue said:

You've made a double standard there, and an argument through implication that I doubt you meant to make.
We're talking specifically about rape, not harassment. Obviously harassment shouldn't happen but it's hardly comparable with rape, rape is on a way higher tier of 'bad' than unwanted remarks or touching, but even if they were it would still be dishonest to say men are responsible for preventing X because not all men do X, and in the case of rape; extraordinarily few men commit rape, men also make up the majority of barfight instigators, murderers, drug pushers and suicides but you would never say that just because the times those harms occur men are generally the perpetrators - (to a comparable percentage that rape occurs at might I add, 96% worldwide for murders) - then that makes men collectively responsible to any degree for their perpetration. Simply because at least in those cases you accept that it's not reflective of the entire male demographic. Which is the double standard.

Btw I am not saying men should avoid preventing unequal treatment/illegalities/whatever else, I think everybody should chip in to prevent such things, my problem is in that by saying men are responsible for preventing rape you're leading onto that implied argument I mentioned: it implies that every guy bears an amount of responsibility for any rapes that do occur because we as a demographic didn't do enough to prevent it, even if we individually couldn't. If you translated that into a courtroom it would mean we would have to find not only the perpetrator of the assault guilty, but every man in the vicinity/city/country/planet somewhat culpable too and punish them also.

We all hear it, and nobody believes it and it doesn't translate into actual actions because we propagate the idea that people are responsible for their actions way more. See bramblethorn's corrections of my previous post for proof.

Unless we're talking about Saudi Arabia and other Islamic fundamentalist countries where they actually do have that. I imagine I'm telling you what you already know here but the religious justifications for Burkas, Niqabs, Hijabs, women not being allowed out in public alone, etc is based on this idea that it is to protect women from men who 'cant control themselves' and will obviously attack a woman when he sees a bit of ankle. Which is also why they persecute female victims of sexual assault, they presume the woman was at fault for not being modest enough and so invited the attack. That's a rape culture for you.

You're equating not enjoying sex with rape.

Click to expand...

Continuing have sex with someone who isn't enjoying it without trying to fix the situation and the 'male sex drive discourse' and harassment are part of the culture which then results in some men assuming that raping women is somehow 'OK'. And I'm sorry but the male sex drive discourse IS a thing. Women in contemporary western cultures ARE expected to be the gatekeepers for sex. It's just not written in religious lore (much).

Let's take walking down the street at night as a case. The vast majority of stranger sexual assaults are perpetrated by men against women - I think we'll all agree on that. One solution would be to say to all men 'look, dudes, some of you are behaving like dicks, so we recommend you all stay indoors after dark so that women can get about their business without worry about being attacked'. Obviously we don't do that, because it would be unreasonable ... but I'm sure you get where I'm going with this. What we're saying instead is 'Sorry girls, but some of these guys are dicks - only some of them of course, but best you stay indoors anyway, just to be safe'. How is that any more reasonable? How is it reasonable to expect one whole gender - woman - to have their freedom of movement constrained because some members of the other gender - men - are dicks, while the rest of the dudes get to carry on as usual?
(Obviously I'm not actually suggesting a curfew for males - I'm just demonstrating that men actually should be expected to take some responsibility for the situation, because at the moment it's all down to women to 'prevent' rape, and it's really freaking boring.)

Nezhul said:

I know your POW. That you know everything about all other women and men know nothing about any women period.
That's just plainly not accurate. Having a cunt doesn't make you omniscient, nor does it make you an expert on gender problems. Reading a bunch of articles - doesn't too.

Thankfully, most women get to leave their lives without being raped or assaulted more than any man does. Most HUMANS get "assaulted", exploited or hurt sexually at some point in some measure - that much is true. Women get it more often - also true. It's still not even a majority who go through that, and Thank Fuck for that. But your painting MOST women as victims by default - is plainly insulting.

I told you as much before, but I guess you need a reinforcer.

Kim, dear.
Please crawl in your dark gloomy rapey world where you come from and don't reply to my posts. I'm talking to normal humans, not over-the-top womanz who pretend to be super-experienced or knowledgeable in everything like yourself.

That's pretty much exactly what I said. You teach kids to be good humans - NO ONE teaches them "not to rape". Not raping people, as well as not killing them, not stealing from them and not burning their homes - comes implicitly with good upbringing. You never go "Son, you should never kill peoples." That's just not how educating a kid goes. I specifically criticize the notion of "Teaching boys not to rape" which sounds like something said by a person just returning from a child-less lesbian feminist parade.
But you miss the point, as always.

Click to expand...

God, I hope you’re not a parent.

Nezhul said:

It's like saying "The number of men I know who were bumped into on the street, insulted, shouted at, or beaten and put into hospital is devastating"

My point is - you should view those points separately.

I do agree that the number of women who got unwantedly molested at some point in any measure is big. Can we actually include this statistics when talking about rape? HELL. FUCKING. NO. It's like grouping up a bar fight with murder statistics.

Also, when you talk about problems like being molested or verbally assaulted - do you think that MEN don't have those problems? Somehow you make it shound like gender-exclusive.
You know how many young girls "play" by teasing and leading on a boy and then laughing at him and humiliating him in front of their girlfriends? A LOT. No it doesn't justify or even out rape, but I can see how it can provoke it at least sometimes.

How about an entire slice of women who go to a date and then run away in the middle of it, leaving the young man with a $100 restaurant bill? I personally got cheated like that - went to a first date, met her in the diner, she went to the bathroom 15 minutes in and then never returned. And I found that before I arrived she had a hefty meal and a few glasses of expensive champaigne for $120 total, which I was now expected to pay for, because clearly I was with her. Which is by the way more in my country than it is in US.
After I had this experience I found out it's a HUGE problem and some females even share info on the net how to better scam "losers" that way. It's recommended to never go anywhere you have to spend money on your first date with a random person, but the problem is you don't really think about it when you invite a girl on a date.

More tame example would be A LOT of women who milk their boyfriend for money constantly, having him not only pay for meals and entertainment, but buy regular presents too - while spending $0 outside of birthday gifts themselves. And it's considered almost NORMAL and expected by many, many people. Isn't that a form of abuse?
Don't get me wrong, I like giving presents to an extent, but I saw and heard of very extreme cases.

That happens. A lot. Do you see men crying on every corner about our gender being victimized?

How about classical dating? The process is FAR from being gender-equal in most western countries. Somehow you don't see men telling everyone it's a huge problem. And meanwhile even the act of approaching a girl is a pretty traumatizing experience that a lot of men struggle with and have to overcome to actually date. Many women don't approach initial dating with any measure of understanding (the majority do play fair of course). It's a fact that men are recommended to "get used to" and "not pay attention to", to "keep trying".

My point is: YES, women have many problem. And YES, no one here argues that rape is a HUGE problem that is mostly gender-specific. But please, don't bunch it up with things like "being touched the wrong way" or "Being called rude things" because those are NOT gender specific. In fact, as molesting and verbal and emotional assault goes, I'd say that women are keeping foot in foot with men in that department.

And what I'm saying is that while women definitely have problems, it doesn't mean that men have no women-created problems. Back to the topic and opening post, false accusations and sexual blackmail is something that malicious women DO use against men far more often than vice versa. It IS a problem just as big and important as some of the women-specific ones.
You are NOT justified in brushing it off because of rape. People who suffer from it are NOT rapists but normal guys. Just like women who exploit it are probably not rape victims.

Instead you are basically coming here and saying "You men should shut up with your problems because rape is worse and you cause it."

Click to expand...

Actually, yeah. Lots and lots of guys complain about exactly the things you're describing. And you might want to familiarize yourself with incel.

I'm amazed at some of the viewpoints expressed. I suppose I shouldn't be but I am.




So this.... ^^^ right here is what this has become. Some men don't like that they can't make lewd comments, or "jokes" or be pigs anymore.
No, they shouldn't all be crucified for doing the same thing so many men were doing, because it was the cultural norm (I'm referring to the ignorant comments, the sexual misconduct and not actual assault here because those that assaulted should be held accountable, especially since 7 years is usually all the time that's allowed for any type of legal prosecution. By all means, I'm ok with rapists losing their reputations) but all we're really saying is that maybe the time has come, when it is in fact brought up, to say, "Hey, yeah, that was shitty and we aren't going to do that anymore"




Think about that.

They frequently put rapists, especially child rapists, in solitary or protective custody so that they don't have the same thing happen to them that they did to someone else.




Maybe this is all we're asking for. Maybe instead of spending 5 pages arguing about how it's not all men, maybe look at the men around you and next time someone says something awful actually call them on their bullshit.
Instead of thinking her skirt was awfully short, maybe think "Gee Bob is a fucking scumbag who can't keep his hands to himself" and say something about it.

LostGirlTink! *applause*

I was looking for this emoji, but it may just show up for fellow iPhone users:

KimGordon67 said:

Continuing have sex with someone who isn't enjoying it without trying to fix the situation and the 'male sex drive discourse' and harassment are part of the culture which then results in some men assuming that raping women is somehow 'OK'.
[..]
One solution would be to say to all men 'look, dudes, some of you are behaving like dicks, so we recommend you all stay indoors after dark so that women can get about their business without worry about being attacked'. Obviously we don't do that, because it would be unreasonable ... but I'm sure you get where I'm going with this. What we're saying instead is 'Sorry girls, but some of these guys are dicks - only some of them of course, but best you stay indoors anyway, just to be safe'. How is that any more reasonable? How is it reasonable to expect one whole gender - woman - to have their freedom of movement constrained because some members of the other gender - men - are dicks, while the rest of the dudes get to carry on as usual?
(Obviously I'm not actually suggesting a curfew for males - I'm just demonstrating that men actually should be expected to take some responsibility for the situation, because at the moment it's all down to women to 'prevent' rape, and it's really freaking boring.)

Click to expand...

No. I take absolutely 0% responsibility for rapes I didn't commit.
Your argument is exactly the same as if I were to say that men should be expected to take responsibility for muggings because it's unreasonable for me to have to take precautions to prevent myself being mugged, like not walking under highways alone at dusk. Obviously, other men don't bear any culpability whatsoever if some men do end up mugging me, but that's where what you're saying breaks from that train of logic and I don't understand why.
We live in a world where there exist people who will commit certain crimes regardless of how stigmatized or suppressed their activities are because we will never weed them out of existence, whether its rape or petty theft. Yes we can reduce the rates of rape and we should do so. But ultimately it is everybody's responsibility to take steps to prevent any crimes happening to us. What's the alternative?

I understand that rates of rape fluctuate based on location because cultural perceptions of sexual consent vary, but some men in the west aren't 'not getting the message' that rape is bad. The seriously dominant perception of rape that gets bombarded at us from every media organization literally every day now is that it's a qualitatively more severe form of evil. The men in the west who intentionally rape others know exactly why what they're doing is harmful but they do it anyway 'cause they've got serious mental issues.

Blue said:

The men in the west who intentionally rape others know exactly why what they're doing is harmful but they do it anyway 'cause they've got serious mental issues.

Click to expand...

Or an awful lot of self-entitled privilege and also because until recently, they weren't being held accountable for it.
American white male rapists that are CONVICTED get off with things like 3 month jail sentences.

They do it because they CAN