Double Blind 2 - the poems and critiques only

legerdemer said:

A sunken belly revelation
Mockery within the flock
Minister Ryan reaching into his robe
retrieving his mighty righteous
condemnation

In the houses of the holy
salvation awaits even the lowly rapist
Grit my teeth
clench my fist
His sinister actions
my consequence

Let peoples across the nation
under steeples praise Jesus and rejoice
all the while I remain choker chained
larynx strained without a voice
pained from my most difficult choice

Leper in the houses of the holy
I am
now the blackened sheep of the family
who only mourn for one little silenced lamb
I refused to carry

Fucked over once again
Oh, how quickly temple tables turn
I spoiled your child
Don't spare me your rod
Ryan, this time make it really burn

Standing on trial here today
in this Witness chair
on the Bible I do solemnly swear to
turn my back on God

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Well, that's disturbing. I like the way the poem kept me on edge, struggling to figure out what was going on, until finally I got the point with the "little lamb" reference. I'm not sure what to make of the "choker chained" reference; unfortunately, it brings to mind the fashions of the 1960s, but then, I'm old.

Holy shit! lots of meat to this *reads again*

My main concern with #3 The Turning is that the wording might confuse readers into walking away with the conclusion that the minister is the one who originally took sexual advantage of the narrator.

Without knowing if that was intentional leaves me in a state of limbo.

And I recently threw my back out limbo-ing at Annie's party.

Magnetron said:

My main concern with #3 The Turning is that the wording might confuse readers into walking away with the conclusion that the minister is the one who originally took sexual advantage of the narrator.

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Yes -- "Minister Ryan reaching into his robe" definitely conveys that impression. So does "Don't spare me your rod
Ryan, this time make it really burn" -- Mags, why do you think that this is not the case? Maybe there is a little Elmer Gantry action in the mix?

AlwaysHungry said:

Yes -- "Minister Ryan reaching into his robe" definitely conveys that impression. So does "Don't spare me your rod
Ryan, this time make it really burn" -- Mags, why do you think that this is not the case? Maybe there is a little Elmer Gantry action in the mix?

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It's mostly due to the mention of rapist. It implies having sex against her will.

If the minister was her rapist, I think shooting him in the head would be a more believable reaction. Here he is being a Holy Dick to her. Why stop at terminating one life?

I say, End the poem with her reaching into her pants and pulling out a mighty righteous Glock.

Magnetron said:

If the minister was her rapist

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Seems plausible, in light of "His sinister actions
my consequence".

This is certainly powerful and very appealing to those among us who get angry at the sanctimony of organized religion. I didn't see the anger directed at Ryan as the possible sexual predator mentioned by Mag and AH, but that's certainly plausible, given what they said. I saw more the reaching for the Bible to thump or paper on which he wrote his sermon.

Line 1 sets the whole tone right from the get go, amazing line IMO.

I would have chosen a different surname than Ryan. Having been raised Irish Catholic, I associate that name with priests, rather than ministers, but that's a quibble, not a criticism. It just made me wonder why, a minor distraction.

I think alot about clichés in poems. More often than not, they become glaring shortcuts in a poem when more is needed. This poet comes close to cliché in a very skilled way to tease my imagination with "Let peoples across the nations," "praise Jesus," and "blackened sheep." I like the latter, in particular, as opposed to "black sheep." It effectively with 2 words reinforces that she is one sinned against, rather than the sinner. She extends each iconic image so it's not reduced to a cliché. I loved the way she danced on the edge with these.

Others will probably disagree, but I wasn't convinced the last stanza was needed. I thought

"Fucked over once again
Oh, how quickly temple tables turn
I spoiled your child
Don't spare me your rod
Ryan, this time make it really burn"

was seething with justified anger and sarcasm. Turning the image in the last stanza into a courtroom didn't add anything to what she already established: we know she's the victim that feels like the accused. We know she's going to turn her back on at least the god she's been brainwashed to believe in by Ryan, and finally I thought the last 3 lines in the above stanza were a strong climax to the poem. While I still think a different surname my be better, the spondee effect of RY! - AN! beginning the line brings the anger to a boiling point in the rest of line, a powerful conclusion IMO.

This was a really well done hard hitting poem, the kind you think about long after you read it.

greenmountaineer said:

Turning the image in the last stanza into a courtroom didn't add anything to what she already established: we know she's the victim that feels like the accused.

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It looks to me as though Witness is purposely capitalized to draw attention to the Jehova's Witnesses. Do they even have ministers? I'm not a religious person.

I had an awfully hilarious thought while planting my lilacs.

Or hilariously awful.

If the poem really is about JW's, you could change

"who only mourn for one little silenced lamb
I refused to carry"

into

"who only mourn for one little lamb
I silenced"

Then as she turns her back on God - she can figuratively turn her back to the congregation, discreetly belch and then grin an evil grin with the thought bubble,

One down ..... 143,999 to go

It'll be 5 years until your lilacs bloom

HarryHill said:

It'll be 5 years until your lilacs bloom

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They're already bloomin' cause I dug them out of Harry's Law.

greenmountaineer said:

Turning the image in the last stanza into a courtroom didn't add anything to what she already established: we know she's the victim that feels like the accused. We know she's going to turn her back on at least the god she's been brainwashed to believe in by Ryan, and finally I thought the last 3 lines in the above stanza were a strong climax to the poem. While I still think a different surname my be better, the spondee effect of RY! - AN! beginning the line brings the anger to a boiling point in the rest of line, a powerful conclusion IMO.

This was a really well done hard hitting poem, the kind you think about long after you read it.

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I think the last stanza does add something, it brought to mind Roe v. Wade for me and tied back to the "choker chained", a possible gag order.

To me this piece isn't just condemning the rapists, or the preacher, but religion and it's stronghold on politics in relation to women's reproductive rights or lately the dwindling lack thereof.

As for criticism, the only line I had any issue with is "Mockery within the flock" I think mockery was used just for the rhyme with flock but I feel it is not a strong enough word. Condemnation within the congregation would work better, and then end the stanza with indignation. A how dare you come in here and make me face what I've wrought feel would be more appropriate to what's being laid out.

Before I start, 'll say that I found this poem very challenging but also very powerful. I know something important is being said, but in truth, I feel like I'm in a mirror maze - many of the religious references flew right over my head and I'm just not sure I'm piecing together the right picture here. Below I've just put in my reactions to various parts of the poem - hopefully some of them will be useful. That's the best I can do.

legerdemer said:

A sunken belly revelation

To me, sunken belly has connotations of starvation - is this what was meant? I'm really not sure.

Mockery within the flock
Minister Ryan reaching into his robe
retrieving his mighty righteous
condemnation

Having seen Spotlight not long ago, the last three lines immediately too me "there"; even without that, reaching into his robe definitely had sexual connotations to me - a premonition of something nefarious.

In the houses of the holy
salvation awaits even the lowly rapist and 'rapist' here of course reinforced the innuendo above

Grit my teeth
clench my fist
His sinister actions
my consequence why 'my consequence'?

Let peoples across the nation
under steeples praise Jesus and rejoice
all the while I remain choker chained 'choker chained' in context of the rest of the stanza suggested inability to speak, possibly from anger or being flabbergasted at the 'sinister actions' above.

larynx strained without a voice
pained from my most difficult choice

Leper in the houses of the holy I like this line
I am
now the blackened sheep of the family I also like the bolded phrase a lot. But now I am confused - are the sinister actions the narrator's? minister Ryan's? someone else? (later the poem suggests they are god's)

who only mourn for one little silenced lamb
I refused to carry

I really don't know how to interpret these last two lines - the little lamb reference is in a way obscured and muddied by its surroundings. I'm now a lost sheep. But that be my missing cultural references.

Fucked over once again
Oh, how quickly temple tables turn Now I'm thinking the temple in Jerusalem. ?!?
I spoiled your child And because of that thinking of Jesus as the child.
Don't spare me your rod
Ryan, this time make it really burn Whoa, Nelly - where am I?? A BDSM dungeon?

Standing on trial here today
in this Witness chair I did not catch the JW reference.
on the Bible I do solemnly swear to
turn my back on God

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And so - overall I am left with a feeling of the narrator shaking his/her fist at god for nefarious -probably sexual acts- against children that have not received proper retribution. But I feel on entirely shaky ground, like there is something just out of my reach I'm not getting. I am left with a poetic feeling of frustration at not knowing where to direct my condemnation. Help!!!

legerdemer said:

Help!!!

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The narrator had an abortion -- that's the "sunken belly revelation." The congregation can see that she is no longer carrying a child, and they condemn her, not suspecting, as I do, that Ryan the preacher is the father ("I spoiled your child") and possibly her rapist. The pregnancy is "her consequence." The "silenced little lamb" who she "refused to carry" is the terminated fetus.

AlwaysHungry said:

The narrator had an abortion -- that's the "sunken belly revelation." The congregation can see that she is no longer carrying a child, and they condemn her, not suspecting, as I do, that Ryan the preacher is the father ("I spoiled your child") and possibly her rapist. The pregnancy is "her consequence." The "silenced little lamb" who she "refused to carry" is the terminated fetus.

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Ah! Well, I feel stupid. D'oh! That makes a lot of sense. I think I just heard someone call for me to turn my female card back in.


EDITED to add: once I had the image of starvation/anorexia for sunken belly (although I'm aware that late stage starvation in fact can show as a swollen belly), I was off on the wrong path and I didn't look back to reinterpret the entire poem. Once you're on the right path, I see that it flows and makes internal sense. My apologies to the poet. There's a lesson in there for me.

Can one be pregnant enough for it to be noticed, yet still have an abortion?

Something isn't adding up.

Or did she have the baby prematurely and give it away??






Or cannibalized it; I still like that idea .......

BTW, am I the only one who missed the allusion to an abortion? (Mags, you be quiet!)

my 2 cents

Content aside I particularly liked the frequent internal rhyming ……“Mockery……flock”, “remain….chain” and the alliteration, this verse is very effective…...

“Let peoples across the nation
under steeples praise Jesus and rejoice
all the while I remain choker chained
larynx strained without a voice
pained from my most difficult choice”…..Whatever the story narrated is, it is a powerful, thoughtful and thought provoking piece.

When I read The Turning, I couldn't find anything in it I would change. I think it's strong and well-written. I don't mind the ambiguity about whether the minister is the literal or figurative rapist.

Once I read GM's critique, I agreed that the piece could lose the last stanza and end on that note. However, I still think the current ending is good, especially if the courtroom scene is important to the author. Also, "Ryan" makes the minister sound like a Catholic priest to me too, but the name fits the rhythm so well. I like the alliteration and the way "rod Ryan" bites when spoken aloud. You can sneer the hell out of that.

I liked Trix's suggestion, too, if a stronger word choice would suit the author in that section: condemnation vs mockery. "Condemnation within the congregation" is a really good line. My only hesitation there would be if the 'M' sounds were being used purposely by the author in that stanza. As I was reading that part over a few times, it occurred to me that the mmmms sound like humming, and I wondered if that was done purposely, maybe as a nod to singing hymns.

The Turning is a really good poem, with a strong, emotional message. Well done, author. Great work here.

.

legerdemer said:

Help!!!

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Just in case there's still a bit of confusion, because this section wasn't specifically addressed:


and "spare the rod, spoil the child" may not be a familiar phrase to everyone. It's a caution that if children aren't punished, they'll be spoiled: often used as the justification for hitting children.

I particularly like this phrasing and usage of the saying within the poem.

AlwaysHungry said:

The narrator had an abortion -- that's the "sunken belly revelation." The congregation can see that she is no longer carrying a child, and they condemn her, not suspecting, as I do, that Ryan the preacher is the father ("I spoiled your child") and possibly her rapist. The pregnancy is "her consequence." The "silenced little lamb" who she "refused to carry" is the terminated fetus.

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Re Ryan as the father or not, it will be interesting to hear the poet's take. "Spoiled your child" indeed suggests that possible explanation. However, it can also mean "the flock," particularly given the other references of sheep and lambs.

Also, the "rod" and "burn" may suggest the scarlet A for adultery. I think it does.

I like it when a poem leaves just a little tension of interpretation for the reader as the question about Ryan does for me. I'm not sure it was intended or not, but it's a neat trick when you think about. I kept returning to the poem, and as I did, I picked up other aspects that had nothing to do with Ryan as father or not.

I saw 'spoiled your child as another allusion to abortion

legerdemer said:

A sunken belly revelation
Mockery within the flock
Minister Ryan reaching into his robe
retrieving his mighty righteous
condemnation

In the houses of the holy
salvation awaits even the lowly rapist
Grit my teeth
clench my fist
His sinister actions
my consequence

Let peoples across the nation
under steeples praise Jesus and rejoice
all the while I remain choker chained
larynx strained without a voice
pained from my most difficult choice

Leper in the houses of the holy
I am
now the blackened sheep of the family
who only mourn for one little silenced lamb
I refused to carry

Fucked over once again
Oh, how quickly temple tables turn
I spoiled your child
Don't spare me your rod
Ryan, this time make it really burn

Standing on trial here today
in this Witness chair
on the Bible I do solemnly swear to
turn my back on God

Click to expand...

Wow this is a good poem! It's a screed against the Church, but on a specific, personal level which makes it easy for the reader to engage. I haven't really read the others' comments (just skimmed them a bit), but I'm getting that the narrator was raped by the minister, had an abortion and is still being used by him. That's pretty explosive stuff and to the author's credit, it's all stated through implication. I like the subtle rhymes and the use of metaphors (blackened sheep/silenced lamb). However I don't get why "Witness" is capitalized, and the use of "temple" throws me because to me it means synagogue. And I'd avoid "houses of the holy" because it conjures (at least for me) the Led Zeppelin album. Aside from that there is a little extra or awkward verbiage to be fixed, but really just a little imo. And I would definitely move that "to" in the next to last line down to the last line because ending that previous line on "swear" is much stronger. Oh and maybe say "on this Bible I do solemnly swear" as that sounds a little smoother to my ear.

Really a pleasure to read this harrowing poem.

Coming in late, I have little to add other than I agree with the comments of others and echo their resounding Bravo.

I had no problem with

"all the while I remain choker chained
larynx strained without a voice"

Perhaps because of the dogs in my life, I'm familiar with a choke collar (although now we use a Martingale) and found the reference reinforced by the the larynx in the following line.

I also liked

"Oh, how quickly temple tables turn"

because I'm a sucker for alliteration and I don't associate temple with a particular denomination, although I will admit it had an Old Testament feel.

To me the cap W in Witness chair implies a specific chair, perhaps one used in a Fundamentalist church from which one is supposed to "testify." If this is he case, I'd capitalize Chair too.

I definitely agree with Angeline's suggestion to move "to" to the last line.

Piscator said:

"Oh, how quickly temple tables turn"

because I'm a sucker for alliteration and I don't associate temple with a particular denomination, although I will admit it had an Old Testament feel.

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If I'm not mistaken, though, it's a New Testament allusion to Christ driving the money changers from the temple and overturning their tables. That, and the familiar expression of "turning the tables on someone," mixed together and used playfully in a serious context.