Is a redemptive narrative still possible?

The Duke of Wellington was traveling through Belgium following his great victory at Waterloo. Everywhere he went, huge crowds turned out to cheer him. Asked whether he was pleased with the ecstatic reception, he replied, "Not in the least; if I had failed they would have shot me."

My point is that while the crowd was no doubt pleased by Woods' victory, what constitutes 'redemption' in his case? Was it his winning the tournament? If so, I fear his redemption will be short-lived, for no man wins forever. There may be a great popular thirst for happy stories, but there is an equally deep thirst to flay anyone who fails.

Or was it that memories of his infidelities have faded? In that sense, all we have arrived at is the old stick that time heals all wounds. By that, presumably, Hitler, Stalin and Mao have all been 'redeemed'.

If redemption hinges on no more than the momentary opinion of the mob (be it in the flesh, on the editorial pages or in the twitterface sewers of this micron-thin society), then I question its validity. If it hinges on nothing more than the passage of time, then I question its value.

TarnishedPenny said:

....My point is that while the crowd was no doubt pleased by Woods' victory, what constitutes 'redemption' in his case? Was it his winning the tournament? If so, I fear his redemption will be short-lived, for no man wins forever. There may be a great popular thirst for happy stories, but there is an equally deep thirst to flay anyone who fails.

Or was it that memories of his infidelities have faded? In that sense, all we have arrived at is the old stick that time heals all wounds. By that, presumably, Hitler, Stalin and Mao have all been 'redeemed'.

If redemption hinges on no more than the momentary opinion of the mob (be it in the flesh, on the editorial pages or in the twitterface sewers of this micron-thin society), then I question its validity. If it hinges on nothing more than the passage of time, then I question its value.

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In Tiger Wood's case, it's not really redemption. He never really fell from grace, it was more a media public flagellation, and we all know the power of the media, although that is now waning as the fakeness of the mass media and it's selective morality is exposed. Most people didn't give a hoot at the time, and his applause was not a sign of redemption, so much as nobody gave a hoot to start with.

We probably need some better examples of a modern Fall from Grace and then a Redemption and to be honest, I can't think of any that pass any sort of reality test.

Sinead O'Conner recently converted to Islam. Was that redemption?

We should take care in looking for real-life redemption models because they're too likely to provoke partisan political-religious squabbles here. Better stick to fiction. Hey, Grinch!

Okay, LIT fiction. A comely person (any gender) seduces and discards a series of smitten lovers (any genders), regularly breaking promises and hearts, relentlessly engaging in sexual excess, until something tragic smites their conscience and they become either a Good Person (happy ending) or a Victim (tragedy) or whatever. But they transform.

Does this ever happen IRL?

ChloeTzang said:

In Tiger Wood's case, it's not really redemption. He never really fell from grace, it was more a media public flagellation, and we all know the power of the media, although that is now waning as the fakeness of the mass media and it's selective morality is exposed. Most people didn't give a hoot at the time, and his applause was not a sign of redemption, so much as nobody gave a hoot to start with.

We probably need some better examples of a modern Fall from Grace and then a Redemption and to be honest, I can't think of any that pass any sort of reality test.

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As somebody who knows golfers, I can tell you that this is not true. Tiger was adored by almost everybody of all races when he was young and winning. What happened to him was not a matter of media flagellation but very much a result of decisions he made that represented a flaw in his character. And many, though not all, of his fans gave up on him. It wasn't just the affairs, but the sullenness, the bad behavior on the golf course, self-absorption, stinginess, etc. They're real issues, not just media-manufactured issues. There is a sort of tragic hero quality to Tiger because the quality that made him great -- the monomaniacal pursuit of his all-time legacy fostered by his father -- also made him in many ways an unpleasant person who had a hard time relating to other people, and contributed to his downfall.

I'm not sure his winning redeems him. It makes a great story in the sports press, but I'm not sure it changes the way people think about him. Time will tell.

But in the meantime, the media certainly will play up the redemption narrative, whether it corresponds to reality or not. So Tiger is a good example of the appetite for this type of narrative. It's definitely there, and writers would be foolish not to acknowledge its possibilities.

A lot of villains are also someone's hero. It's all in a point of view. So, it's possible to redeem a villain simply by looking at his actions in a different light.

Hypoxia said:

IMHO moral redemption requires that we admit and atone for our fuckups, sins, bad behaviors. Scrooge repents and becomes generous. The erotic version has the cheating spouse become the loving, loyal spouse. In any redemption narrative, the sinner must change themself.

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I tend to agree here - in literary terms "redemption" for Woods wouldn't be winning another tournament, because that doesn't address the way in which he failed.

ChloeTzang said:

We probably need some better examples of a modern Fall from Grace and then a Redemption and to be honest, I can't think of any that pass any sort of reality test.

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Weinstein tried it. About five seconds after the stories of sexual abuse broke, it was announced that he was off to some kind of sex rehab camp. I assume the plan was for him to come out a few weeks later as a Changed Man, absolved of his previous wrongdoing, but it was generally seen as a cynical move. Others like Spacey and CK have tried similar approaches.

Part of the difficulty in finding convincing redemption narratives IRL is that sincerity is at odds with visibility. For the Weinsteins of the world, "redemption" is a PR stunt to be advertised. Those who are genuine about regretting their actions and making amends might be putting their efforts into actually doing so, instead of broadcasting it.

The ones that feel genuine to me are on a smaller scale, with people who aren't household names. Nathan Mathis, for instance, who told his daughter he'd rather have a dead daughter than a gay one, and got what he asked for, and seems to have been trying to make amends for it since - IMHO that's a redemption story, but a bleak one.

Hypoxia said:

Sinead O'Conner recently converted to Islam. Was that redemption?

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From an Islamic perspective, I assume it might be? From mine, though, she doesn't fit the first requirement of a redemption narrative because she hasn't sinned against others. (Or no more than we all do.) She's just somebody who's had a difficult life and has tried a bunch of different religions in an attempt to make sense of it.

A redemptive narrative in the context of erotica would, for me, be the reverse of what people typically think of it as. In other words, it would have to be sex-positive. I don't find stories where people are punished for their sexuality to be erotic. It would be erotic to me for a character to fall from grace through anti-sex attitudes and to redeem themselves by learning from their mistakes and adopting a more pro-sex attitude.

IMHO erotic redemption follows either of two of the six basic story arcs:

* Man in a hole – fall, rise: \/
* Cinderella – rise, fall, rise: /\/

A straight rags-to-riches rise (start off as evil, spend the story repenting) would be comic or fantastic. An arc ending in a fall would be tragic, and not too erotic except to BtB fans.

Degradation, the opposite of redemption, follows either of another two arcs:

* Icarus – a rise, then a fall in fortune: /\
* Oedipus – a fall, a rise, then a fall again: \/\

Idea: superimpose two opposite arcs. Player1 does a Man-in-the hole, fall-then-rise, for redemption, while Player2 does an Icarus, rise-then-fall, to degradation. Contrast their life threads. For a happy ending, hint that Player1 will help Player2 to turn around.