Insider or Outsider?

Stella's Essay

This was a favourite of mine as well :)


Here is a LINK to her essay, and below please find the entire text. Enjoy!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Top. dom. sub. bottom. And the differences between them. AKA "Stella's usual rant."

Note: Our society has become very enamored of the concept of Dom and Sub. Many people come into the lifestyle without ever hearing that any other dynamic can exist, which is why I have written this little essay. I do not wish to give the impression that you or anyone else are restricted to one or another of the roles I have described here. My reason for writing it, in fact, is exactly the opposite-- to show that there are more roles and motivations within BDSM than are commonly recognised.

I don't want to give the impression that any role is solid or permanent. There is a lot of fluidity in most people. Needs and desires change and mutate over a lifetime, within a relationship, for any reason or none. And motives, methods, preferences can be mixed together.


----
Many people know what they want to feel, and how they want to feel it, and many people get a lot of pleasure out of providing sensation for someone else. This kind of dynamic is widely misunderstood in current BDSM parlance.

Let me start with a handful of Definitions;

This, as someone recently pointed out to me, is not a definition included in Webster's dictionary. But the way I am using "top" and "bottom" here has been common since the seventies. I swear it! Long before I ever heard "submissive" and dominant" there was "top and bottom." Google agrees with me, so there.

Topping and bottoming refer to relative roles in activities. Dom and sub refer to relative roles in relationships.

When two people are fucking, there is usually one person who is active and one who is receptive. In SM activities, one person is doing unto, and one is being done unto. The active person is the top, the receptive person is the bottom.

Dominant and submissive refer to relative status. Also, for many people, the motivations behind many relational activities.

In the relationships that we define as D/s, one person's preferences and desires define the relationship, and the other person allows the relationship to be defined by their partner. We say the sub has given their power to the dom.

For our purposes here, we can say that topping and bottoming are the things we do, dom and sub are how or why we do those things.


------


Why are these distinctions important to you?

The big problem that arises from this misunderstanding and the resulting social expectations, is that people-- women in particular-- believe that they want to be submissive and owned because of their desire for sensation when what they really want is to have a whole lot of attention paid to them. And when a service top-- whose real intent is to serve-- thinks that he has to be the boss in all things, when in fact he might not be suited for that role at all.

Many people come into the lifestyle thinking that anyone who does unto, is dominant. Anyone who receives, is submissive. That's not always true; Not all tops are doms. Likewise, not all bottoms are subs.

Folks who know how they want to be done are often called "Bossy bottoms," or SAM's ("Smart Ass Masochists") or "Pillow Princesses" or other things, but they they might actually be "Dominant Bottoms." They might not be submissive at all, in other words. And really, there is no reason why they should try to be.

Tops who *want to provide* what such a person *wants to feel* get told that they are wimps, or not really Doms-- and in fact, they might not consider themselves to be dominant. They can call themselves "Service Tops," and IMO, that's a mighty fine and honorable position to claim. An active partner might not be suited to be the boss. If not, then there is no reason why they should try to be.


If you want more information on what kinds of things can happen in BDSM, I recommend these books, All four of them are 'old' these days, and pretty much every other book about BSM is a repeat of what is in these books.

They are;
The New Topping Book
The New Bottoming Book by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy
Screw The Roses, Send Me The Thorns by Philip Miller and Molly Devon
SM 101; A realistic Introduction by Jay Wiseman

They can be found at Amazon or ordered from your local independent bookseller.
 
Just diving in from the side lines, when I first came here, I was only just beginning to accept certain feelings and wants that I'd supressed for most of my life, were a part of me, and not some antisocial condition to be denied. I was experimenting (and still am) without any sort of framework to relate to, and while I was moving slowly, trying to figure it out as I went along, there were areas where I didn't feel that I "fitted" into what I perceived as the expected "norm". I did watch and lurk for quite some time before becoming more active, and started to realise that there actually wasn't any such thing as a "norm", but Stella's essay and posts were a revelation. A lot of things started to make sense to me, like the way my focus when 'topping' was in pleasing my partner, and wanting specific things done when being 'bottomed'. Also, that it was ok to want to play both sides of the fence, and that a change in need is perfectly acceptable to those that play that way. Does this mean I'm a switch between a dominant bottom and a service top? Very probably; it certainly makes sense to me. I've also learned that it doesn't matter either, I'm just the way I am, the labels are just an indicator, not a rigid framework. The people I've met on here have never been hostile or condescending, quite the contrary; friendly, helpful, supportive. If I hadn't found this place, I guess I'd still be confused and messed up, and I'm not sure that I'd be as content in myself as I am today. It can be intimidating, making yourself known on here for the first time, but for me, it was worth the leap of faith. As such, I'll always say hi and welcome to anyone new to a thread, and I'll try and help out with any advice I can give. And if it's beyond me, I'll try and point them in the right direction. I like the lit community, because it IS a community. And it feels good to be a part of it.

Hmm, I did go on a bit, didn't I? :eek:
 
I remember that my first thought when joining Lit was "holy shit, this is a large forum!"
I had been used to fora of a size, where you could actually read all new posts in a reasonable time. It was a bit scary, until I got used to the idea of NOT reading everything.

Things are done differently. On a forum I moderate, almost all newcomers make a presentation post, and will be formally welcomed by most of the mods.
On another, new members are welcomed by the other members by presenting them with a small gif of a parrot, and a text along the lines of "Welcome, have a parrot". I still haven't figured out why.

Since Lit is about sexuality, and the norms, feelings, language, customs and legal matters wary wildly around the globe, I think that adds to the sensitivity of some.

A long time ago, there was a discussion about disposing of a vibrator.
My take on it was "take it apart, and recycle it as batteries, electronics and PVC", and that sent the guy through the roof, because his problem apparently was, that he considered it to be worse than nuclear waste that had to be disposed of clandestinely, lest he be outed as a pervert in his community.
He even expected the that trash collectors would rifle through his waste to find it.
I considered it great fun, he certainly didn't!
:eek:
 
I have found the same to be true. And I can hardly imagine having found what I found here elsewhere.
cb
:heart:

It is a good place. :)

I will also mention, since I "outed" Yanks and turnaround is fair play, that I know I am responsible for one person who left the forum permanently. While I don't regret what I said, I do regret that I said it publicly and not in a pm. This person was involved with some genuinely nasty people in real life and I was concerned for their physical and mental well being. The good news is that, last I heard, they had left those folks behind and had taken up with someone decent. The bad news is, they never returned to enjoy the companionship of this site and that's on me.

I will also mention that it was Bunny who publicly came to this person's defense and called out my bad behaviour. She is a quality human being. :rose:

It is too easy to type words online sometimes and not consider the real life consequences. It is also difficult to look unflinchingly at ourselves and admit that, no matter our intentions, sometimes we are assholes.
 
It is too easy to type words online sometimes and not consider the real life consequences. It is also difficult to look unflinchingly at ourselves and admit that, no matter our intentions, sometimes we are assholes.

Beautifully put. :)

I’d like to add that the character of the forum has changed significantly since I joined. There was an unpleasant stretch in my early days where bashing blossomed into the rule rather than the exception. It was…very ugly.

It’s difficult for me to speak to how things are now. I all but abandoned Talk after some of the more unpleasant eruptions. Presumably the forum is more welcoming than it was for a time.

In case people feel they’re being blamed, I don’t think that was/is this thread’s intention. Personally, I don’t recall any incidence of Seela or Bunny attacking new posters. (I mention them because they’ve recently posted.) I’ve also seen Bunny swing into action when she’s perceived an injustice. Impressive. :D

I’m not saying we need to *hug* it out. I’m just saying that it’s hard for a forum to be seen as welcoming when basic courtesies are not extended to new posters. And that several forum members, new posters, and posters that have left here to go on to other forums, see, or at least have seen, a problem with the “welcome” factor here at BDSM. Surely that is worth addressing.
 
Since this thread was started my view has changed drastically. I don't feel like being part of the "welcoming committee" or continuing to offer advice or have the patience to do it anymore. If the people stepping up to the plate aren't doing as great a job as you think they should, do it yourself. If you think there's injustices happening, call them out when you see them. Be the poster you want to see here.

If you can do a better job, then do it.

*general "you" not specific to anyone.
 
Just diving in from the side lines, when I first came here, I was only just beginning to accept certain feelings and wants that I'd supressed for most of my life, were a part of me, and not some antisocial condition to be denied. I was experimenting (and still am) without any sort of framework to relate to, and while I was moving slowly, trying to figure it out as I went along, there were areas where I didn't feel that I "fitted" into what I perceived as the expected "norm". I did watch and lurk for quite some time before becoming more active, and started to realise that there actually wasn't any such thing as a "norm", but Stella's essay and posts were a revelation. A lot of things started to make sense to me, like the way my focus when 'topping' was in pleasing my partner, and wanting specific things done when being 'bottomed'. Also, that it was ok to want to play both sides of the fence, and that a change in need is perfectly acceptable to those that play that way. Does this mean I'm a switch between a dominant bottom and a service top? Very probably; it certainly makes sense to me. I've also learned that it doesn't matter either, I'm just the way I am, the labels are just an indicator, not a rigid framework. The people I've met on here have never been hostile or condescending, quite the contrary; friendly, helpful, supportive. If I hadn't found this place, I guess I'd still be confused and messed up, and I'm not sure that I'd be as content in myself as I am today. It can be intimidating, making yourself known on here for the first time, but for me, it was worth the leap of faith. As such, I'll always say hi and welcome to anyone new to a thread, and I'll try and help out with any advice I can give. And if it's beyond me, I'll try and point them in the right direction. I like the lit community, because it IS a community. And it feels good to be a part of it.

Hmm, I did go on a bit, didn't I? :eek:

You did. Thank you for that. Much of what you said is speaking to me and my feelings. :rose:
 
Oh, hush, Keroin and E_N. Bunny is a contrarian shit who very rarely has pangs of conscience, that's all. :p
 
Beautifully put. :)

I’d like to add that the character of the forum has changed significantly since I joined. There was an unpleasant stretch in my early days where bashing blossomed into the rule rather than the exception. It was…very ugly.

It’s difficult for me to speak to how things are now. I all but abandoned Talk after some of the more unpleasant eruptions. Presumably the forum is more welcoming than it was for a time.

In case people feel they’re being blamed, I don’t think that was/is this thread’s intention. Personally, I don’t recall any incidence of Seela or Bunny attacking new posters. (I mention them because they’ve recently posted.) I’ve also seen Bunny swing into action when she’s perceived an injustice. Impressive. :D

I’m not saying we need to *hug* it out. I’m just saying that it’s hard for a forum to be seen as welcoming when basic courtesies are not extended to new posters. And that several forum members, new posters, and posters that have left here to go on to other forums, see, or at least have seen, a problem with the “welcome” factor here at BDSM. Surely that is worth addressing.

Good points well made.

Keeping it brief, I once saw a blurt post (from someone who I've not seen for a while) complaining about how boring and tedious it was to read and respond to 'noob' posts from someone just discovering their bdsm tendencies.

I think if you're bored with something, then don't do it. If answering new posters or welcoming them bores you, don't do it. If you haven't got the time or the inclination, then don't do it - there are usually enough people around to say hi to new people. I don't always have the time or mental energy to offer much, so I just stop typing *shrug*.

And we've all been that new poster - we've all had our 'moment' - so I don't understand why someone bothers to type a snotty post rather than just walking away. I know, I know - it's the Internet...it just seems to take as much effort to be rude as to be polite.
 
Good points well made.

Keeping it brief, I once saw a blurt post (from someone who I've not seen for a while) complaining about how boring and tedious it was to read and respond to 'noob' posts from someone just discovering their bdsm tendencies.

I think if you're bored with something, then don't do it. If answering new posters or welcoming them bores you, don't do it. If you haven't got the time or the inclination, then don't do it - there are usually enough people around to say hi to new people. I don't always have the time or mental energy to offer much, so I just stop typing *shrug*.

And we've all been that new poster - we've all had our 'moment' - so I don't understand why someone bothers to type a snotty post rather than just walking away. I know, I know - it's the Internet...it just seems to take as much effort to be rude as to be polite.

More good points well made.

For emphasis ...IMO life is tough enough for most people and none of us have any idea what is really going on behind the curtain of our electronic devices. It takes no more effort to extend kindness as it does to be snarky . And it is possible to correct someone behaving badly without going completely off the rails.
I'm sure that welcome wagon duty gets old. Obviously only do it if you feel able and called to. Some days I can be super hospitable, some days I can't. I can imagine a time when it will wear thin.
Even though I still feel like a newer member here...(I sure can't recall whatever version of the good old days people are referring to) but I do remember Stag from his last season here lol...I guess I've been here long enough to have standing to welcome newbies. So I do...at least sometimes, on says I'm here and I feel inclined. I never feel like it's a requirement of me as a participant here. Maybe I should? Dunno.
 
Exactly. If you don’t want to welcome people, then don’t. It’s hardly a requirement. No one is suggesting we throw our arms around newcomer’s and weep with joy that they’ve wandered in to post. Let’s just not run them off because they happened to say something that annoyed you, or because you’ve had a crappy day, or just because you can.

I like Lally’s idea. Stella’s link was genius. It introduced concepts and let her pass on information without having to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. If there’s something you think is important and you feel moved to share, make a link. Submission, sadism, safety, whatever floats your boat. Or it could even be a unique perspective, like Bunny’s aro posts, or….damn, can’t remember the name of the thread. The Marks of a Slave, maybe?

Oh, hush, Keroin and E_N. Bunny is a contrarian shit who very rarely has pangs of conscience, that's all. :p

They're just such firework-y pangs of conscience. :D
 
<I’m not saying we need to *hug* it out.>

But but but... hugs are so good!

<If you can do a better job, then do it.

*general "you" not specific to anyone.>

Perfectly stated.

<I think if you're bored with something, then don't do it. If answering new posters or welcoming them bores you, don't do it. If you haven't got the time or the inclination, then don't do it - there are usually enough people around to say hi to new people. I don't always have the time or mental energy to offer much, so I just stop typing *shrug*.

And we've all been that new poster - we've all had our 'moment' - so I don't understand why someone bothers to type a snotty post rather than just walking away. I know, I know - it's the Internet...it just seems to take as much effort to be rude as to be polite.>

Sometimes it seems simple.

I posted something (I thought) friendly in a different forum and the next poster told me I was going on ignore. Umm. Ok. Thanks for letting me know. I did feel like the noob in the lunchroom sitting at my own table for a moment. I didn't get why they took the time to be sh*tty other than to make me feel sh*tty.

<For emphasis ...IMO life is tough enough for most people and none of us have any idea what is really going on behind the curtain of our electronic devices. It takes no more effort to extend kindness as it does to be snarky . And it is possible to correct someone behaving badly without going completely off the rails.>

1000% agreement. I like nice much better than snark.

I do sometimes. :).

I know the welcome meant a lot to me, and the one who welcomed me I feel lucky in, because she is someone I hold in my heart and it was easy to remember her from her welcome.

I think that there is sadness for me that the ratio of people who drop in to introduce them selves and then stay to become 'regulars' is not greater. But, so be it. If there is some way to improve the welcome I would be glad to hear it. A minor problem for me is that although I try to overcome it my memory is NOT great and as it is clear u til I am more familiar with a name/identity I can appear rude in forgetting someone. I do not mean to dismiss them or diminish conversation I have had previously with them.

Cascadia, because of your long lurk time, you have been here longer than me, I remember. I am not an 'old guard' certainly, but I do not think of myself raw to this forum.

In some sense, I think meek me said something wise...be the poster you want in others. This is what I DO try to do most of the time. Apart from...I do not want to emulate other people in doing that!

It is weird to think so many people post once and never come back or lurk and never really engage. It's probably the nature of any porn/sex board. Or maybe any forum. I remember signing up for pinterest, looked around a bit and never went back.

This really should be simple - say hi, play nice.
 
I have to agree with at least two other posters that said mommy forums are the worst at attacking. That is where I learned to cut my losses. Once branded, twice shy, right? Oh, and if you don't do things the one true way, or even suggest there might be other ways there, you are mean, you are attacking AND you are the devil. :devil:
 
Something else that I've been thinking about re: Lit forum behavior, is that one of the best AND worst things about Lit is the Free Speech aspect.

I'll take answering repetitive questions overandover over the years (sometimes noting how my approach/attitude towards XYZ subject has changed over time), over the instant-thread closures that populate so many Fet forums.

Here, a thread may get ignored, responded to or ridiculed, but it isn't at all uncommon for me to open a forum on Fet, see an interesting (even if repetitive) thread title... And a moderator has shut it down for not meeting his/her definition of "on topic".
 
Something else that I've been thinking about re: Lit forum behavior, is that one of the best AND worst things about Lit is the Free Speech aspect.

I'll take answering repetitive questions overandover over the years (sometimes noting how my approach/attitude towards XYZ subject has changed over time), over the instant-thread closures that populate so many Fet forums.

Here, a thread may get ignored, responded to or ridiculed, but it isn't at all uncommon for me to open a forum on Fet, see an interesting (even if repetitive) thread title... And a moderator has shut it down for not meeting his/her definition of "on topic".

Fet as in FetLife?

I hung out there for a little while but found that it should have been a dozen different sites. Like fl-ropes.com, fl-age.com etc. Some of the INtolerant of other people's kinks I've come across. It wasn't fun so I haven't been back in a while. (I figure if I expect others to tolerate my foibles I should be at least somewhat understanding of theirs)
 
As a person very new to the forums, I feel neither openly welcomed nor do I feel openly ignored. When it comes to the BDSM lifestyle my experience puts me between beginner and a novice. I know because of my experience and my willingness to dive deeper into the BDSM forum and lifestyle. I will have questions/or comments on threads and then I will know if I am openly welcomed or openly ignored.
 
As a person very new to the forums, I feel neither openly welcomed nor do I feel openly ignored. When it comes to the BDSM lifestyle my experience puts me between beginner and a novice. I know because of my experience and my willingness to dive deeper into the BDSM forum and lifestyle. I will have questions/or comments on threads and then I will know if I am openly welcomed or openly ignored.

I never knew what to ask when I first got here.
 
I was fortunate to have access to someone both experienced and knowlegeable about BDSM from early on in my time at Lit.

But in terms of community, we (my dear friend elli and i) tried to create our own niche on the Playground, and be supportive of others who wanted to talk about BDSM without leaving their 'home board.' We wanted to 'bring BDSM to the people,' so to speak, and there have been several threads that were successful in facilitating conversation on the subject, including the still very active Daddy's Little Girl, currently hosted by tbe very lovely bfg. :D:heart:

I have no inhibitions about board hopping, and kept poking my nose in here to test the atmosphere, and to be at least an occasional contributor. I've known midwestyankee for what feels like forever:rose: but i can't recall if we met here or the HT Café.

Eventually i met Fara, cookie, Eva, et all, and that was really the turning point for me. :heart: That was when i began to feel really at home here.
 
I was fortunate to have access to someone both experienced and knowlegeable about BDSM from early on in my time at Lit.

But in terms of community, we (my dear friend elli and i) tried to create our own niche on the Playground, and be supportive of others who wanted to talk about BDSM without leaving their 'home board.' We wanted to 'bring BDSM to the people,' so to speak, and there have been several threads that were successful in facilitating conversation on the subject, including the still very active Daddy's Little Girl, currently hosted by tbe very lovely bfg. :D:heart:

I have no inhibitions about board hopping, and kept poking my nose in here to test the atmosphere, and to be at least an occasional contributor. I've known midwestyankee for what feels like forever:rose: but i can't recall if we met here or the HT Café.

Eventually i met Fara, cookie, Eva, et all, and that was really the turning point for me. :heart: That was when i began to feel really at home here.

:heart:

See, and for me, this was my first board.
Cassie and DGE welcomed me. The girls then were cookie, collar n cuffs, masters delight, meek, lally...
And of course, some hot dude in cookie’s pool party thread.
 
:heart:

See, and for me, this was my first board.
Cassie and DGE welcomed me. The girls then were cookie, collar n cuffs, masters delight, meek, lally...
And of course, some hot dude in cookie’s pool party thread.

I met Cassie on the PG. She does a terrific job of keeping a couple of my threads up and going. :heart:

It occurs to me to say that had i not gotten involved on the PG, i never would have met some amazing people who are involved (or at least interested) in BDSM, but rarely or never post about it. Not a judgement on anyone else's choices at all, just a reflection on the path that I've taken, and where it's led me. :)
 
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