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Books on rape

HandsInTheDark said:
And for heaven's sake, people are venting over a text that borders on rape advice on a site where the biggest category is incest, about the only thing out there more fucked up than rape. Who here is calling for a Lit boycott? Clearly everyone here believes that writing doesn't affect behavior. So what is this about again?
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What part of fantasy don't you understand as far as Lit is concerned.

Fantasy and How To are worlds apart.
 
HandsInTheDark said:
This isn't a freedom issue. Unless a government bans books, then you have an argument.

Anyone can write a book. That freedom is inherent and can't be regulated.

Anyone can try to sell a book - and then market forces go to work. If enough people complain he won't get a publisher. His freedom isn't abridged by that; he can still express his views. He's just not going to make a lot of money with it.

The joy and horror of the Internet is that anyone can self-publish, so he's not even beholden to publishers to express his views. He has perfect freedom to express himself. Unless , again, it's judged so hateful that his ideas are actually made illegal. But that's unlikely here and should be very rare in general.

And let's face it - these aren't his views. Maybe 85% of what he writes is real to him, but the utterly outrageous claims (legalize rape on private property, etc) are pure publicity. It'might work for him - look at this thread. You're all his advertisers now.

"Oh, how horrid!"
"Really? Wow, gotta check that out..."

Marketing at work, people.
Click to expand...

Go to this link and read...


What is Censorship?

Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are "offensive," happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional.
 
TxRad said:
What part of fantasy don't you understand as far as Lit is concerned.

Fantasy and How To are worlds apart.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I doubt that. A lot of How To is fantasy, sold to make money. Especially a book on getting women to part their legs; can you imagine the success rate of the sort of losers who would buy that book?

On the other hand, quite a lot of thoughtful fantasy can teach people how to think about things and do them.

The human brain is poor at differentiating reality from fantasy, especially where endorphins are concerned. I reject your thesis.
 
If, as Zeb suggests, any form of censorship should be banned, despite a huge long list of qualifications to the first amendment, then why have any laws, since laws infringe on individual civil liberty too? I see no difference in the theory there.

Truth is, where money is concerned, where the value of life is concerned, no one really gives a shit. It's dog eat dog - always will be. People go purple in the face defending the right to publish rape manuals because, even if their wife or daughter gets raped, they know 'she must have been asking for it'.

The point that assholes like Roosh miss, is that women want to get laid too. What we don't want is a disingenuous sociopath who is following rules from a book. Too creepy.
 
stickygirl said:
Truth is, where money is concerned, where the value of life is concerned, no one really gives a shit. It's dog eat dog - always will be. People go purple in the face defending the right to publish rape manuals because, even if their wife or daughter gets raped, they know 'she must have been asking for it'.

The point that assholes like Roosh miss, is that women want to get laid, too. What we don't want is a disingenuous sociopath who is following rules from a book. Too creepy.
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And it has taken over 30 years to get to that point and it ain't universal - yet.
 
stickygirl said:
If, as Zeb suggests, any form of censorship should be banned, despite a huge long list of qualifications to the first amendment, then why have any laws, since laws infringe on individual civil liberty too? I see no difference in the theory there.

Truth is, where money is concerned, where the value of life is concerned, no one really gives a shit. It's dog eat dog - always will be. People go purple in the face defending the right to publish rape manuals because, even if their wife or daughter gets raped, they know 'she must have been asking for it'.

The point that assholes like Roosh miss, is that women want to get laid too. What we don't want is a disingenuous sociopath who is following rules from a book. Too creepy.
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Because without laws against physical acts of violence the world would be a fucked up place. Censorship is not about physical actions.

Doesn't anyone read what others write anymore? I mean read and understand. Did you comprehend the statement I quoted? Did you click the link?

I am not advocating rape. I am not even advocating what's his face be able to rape women.

Read the statement of what censorship is, not what you think it might mean, but what it truly is.
 
Zeb_Carter said:
Because without laws against physical acts of violence the world would be a fucked up place. Censorship is not about physical actions.

Doesn't anyone read what others write anymore? I mean read and understand. Did you comprehend the statement I quoted? Did you click the link?

I am not advocating rape. I am not even advocating what's his face be able to rape women.

Read the statement of what censorship is, not what you think it might mean, but what it truly is.
Click to expand...

What part of this isn't about censorship, it's about a manual on rape, don't YOU understand..
 
Zeb_Carter said:
Read the statement of what censorship is, not what you think it might mean, but what it truly is.
Click to expand...

And then check a few dictionaries and any relevant law in your country, because the ACLU sure in hell isn't in charge of the meaning of words.
 
Zeb_Carter said:
Because without laws against physical acts of violence the world would be a fucked up place. Censorship is not about physical actions.

Doesn't anyone read what others write anymore? I mean read and understand. Did you comprehend the statement I quoted? Did you click the link?

I am not advocating rape. I am not even advocating what's his face be able to rape women.

Read the statement of what censorship is, not what you think it might mean, but what it truly is.
Click to expand...
There are as many laws that don't cover physical violence - why pick on those? Bribery, theft, purgery .. But that wasn't the point so there's no need to keep repeating your reference - the thread isn't about your reference.
The world is already a fucked up place with laws so why would one more make any difference?
I'm not actually disagreeing with you with regard to censorship because there are more important issues that need to be dealt with in society than one prurient piece of shit like this. Censorship is a dangerous road. Shouldn't the discussion be on better ways to deal with problems like rape and misogyny?
 
TxRad said:
What part of this isn't about censorship, it's about a manual on rape, don't YOU understand..
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I understand that. But when a group of people get together and demand that some work, book, statue, picture, movie be removed, or burned, or buried, that is censorship. And censorship is also wrong. Two wrongs, don't make a right as I was told all my life. How about you?
 
stickygirl said:
There are as many laws that don't cover physical violence - why pick on those? Bribery, theft, purgery .. But that wasn't the point so there's no need to keep repeating your reference - the thread isn't about your reference.
The world is already a fucked up place with laws so why would one more make any difference?
I'm not actually disagreeing with you with regard to censorship because there are more important issues that need to be dealt with in society than one prurient piece of shit like this. Censorship is a dangerous road. Shouldn't the discussion be on better ways to deal with problems like rape and misogyny?
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Well go ahead, I won't stop you...that would be censorship.

And the thread was about getting his books pulled from amazon. That they are about rape is not the question. The question is his work offends people. It offends me too. But to try and censor his words. As you admit, that's wrong.
 
Zeb_Carter said:
Well go ahead, I won't stop you...that would be censorship.

And the thread was about getting his books pulled from amazon. That they are about rape is not the question. The question is his work offends people. It offends me too. But to try and censor his words. As you admit, that's wrong.
Click to expand...

As usual, you're arguing just to be arguing.
 
Zeb_Carter said:
I understand that. But when a group of people get together and demand that some work, book, statue, picture, movie be removed, or burned, or buried, that is censorship. And censorship is also wrong. Two wrongs, don't make a right as I was told all my life. How about you?
Click to expand...

No it isn't censorship, unless they have some policing authority behind them and get it done on that basis. And if who they are petitioning knuckles under to them, that wasn't a result of censorship. It is a result of that entity weighing its options and choosing to accommodate them. If it's a publisher, they can do that by right of choosing what they will sell. And this isn't censorship. It's a private business decision. Doesn't matter if it's the result of weighing the forces yammering at them and picking one.
 
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HandsInTheDark said:
And then check a few dictionaries and any relevant law in your country, because the ACLU sure in hell isn't in charge of the meaning of words.
Click to expand...

No you're right the ACLU isn't in charge of the meaning of words.

In my country, even those in charge can't see to agree on the meaning of words. So, I'll take a defender of the first amendment as someone who would know what words should mean in the context of the law and civil liberties.

Wiki definition:

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.

Dictionary.com:

the act or practice of censoring.

merriam-webster.com:

: the system or practice of censoring books, movies, letters, etc.

I'll take the ACLU version, it is more comprehensive and meaningful.
 
Zeb_Carter said:
The twinkie defense...

I grew up watching television and going to see some pretty gruesome movies...

I didn't turn in to a killer or a rapist.
Click to expand...

I watch violent movies too. They're generally presented as fiction and while they might depict rape or murder, they don't present it as something that's okay for the Good Guys to do. Big difference.

You'll notice I'm not arguing for boycotting the Gor books or American Psycho. And if you think I'm "defending" anybody who commits rape after reading Roosh's work, well, I have no idea where you're getting that from.
 
HandsInTheDark said:
And for heaven's sake, people are venting over a text that borders on rape advice on a site where the biggest category is incest, about the only thing out there more fucked up than rape.
Click to expand...

Weird thing to say.

Much RL incest is rape plain and simple, and it's bad and wrong on that account. But to say that incest is worse than rape... well, if adult siblings choose to have consensual sex, that's their business.

Who here is calling for a Lit boycott? Clearly everyone here believes that writing doesn't affect behavior. So what is this about again?
Click to expand...

Bullshit. Roosh's books are marketed to lads who want to change their dating strategy, with advice on how to do so. "Affecting behaviour" is the WHOLE POINT, and to claim that a dating how-to doesn't change the way people behave on a date is absurd.

If you can't comprehend the idea that one form of writing encountered in one context might influence behaviour while a different form of writing encountered in a different context might not...
 
Zeb_Carter said:
And the thread was about getting his books pulled from amazon. That they are about rape is not the question. The question is his work offends people. It offends me too. But to try and censor his words. As you admit, that's wrong.
Click to expand...

The problem is that if the campaign fails, which it surely will. The campaign itself will turn out to be the best advertising the writer could get. Amazon will not pull the book if it is selling well. It will sell wel because the campaign gives it a lot of publicity, and some will think "better buy it now before it gets pulled."

We had similar things happening with pop music in the sixties and seventies. The BBC controlled the airwaves and would ban the playing of records they found offensive. It was soon realised that having your record banned by the BBC was almost a guarantee of chart success.

Example of banned songs
Je taime (Moi non plus) Serge Gainsborough and Jane Birkin (only french language song to reach No1)
I would rather go blind Chicken Shack
A day in the Life The Beatles
 
leglizing rape is not hte same as having a fantasy. Are there really so many people who cannot distinguish reality from a story. I write many stories in which the protagonist is fucked anally, but I never have been, as it is medically impossible for me. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy the fantasy. I once played "rape" with a girl friend. It was very real, as close to the real thing as you could come without weapons. We both enjoyed the hell out of it, but neither of us is advocating lying wait and pouncing on anunsuspecting person and brutalizing them.
 
LadyVer said:
:) I've learned not to assume anything about men. At my great age, I'm still learning. Smart reply. :)
Click to expand...

Age is a great tool for learning. The ones that don't learn usually don't live long enough for a second chance.

ETA: Something I wrote many years ago.

How many wrecks does it take before some people realize that they are going the wrong way on life’s highway? I figure that the second time you’re in jail or the hospital; it’s time to make an adjustment or at least stop and think about it. Life may be trying to tell you something.
 
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TxRad said:
Age is a great tool for learning. The ones that don't learn usually don't live long enough for a second chance.

ETA: Something I wrote many years ago.

How many wrecks does it take before some people realize that they are going the wrong way on life’s highway? I figure that the second time you’re in jail or the hospital; it’s time to make an adjustment or at least stop and think about it. Life may be trying to tell you something.
Click to expand...

:) I've been thinking about how aging makes one question a lot of things. Twenty years ago I would have said to the Ashley Madison hack, well, they--those who went on AM--deserve the repercussions. Cheating is wrong. My attitude today is that life is not all black and white, when people who are desperate and lonely, like those whose partners have been in comas for years, or whose partners refuse to have sex with them, that AM is one way for people to get at least some kind of intimacy or connection with others, although from my reading about AM, I would guess it would be hard for anyone to get any real intimacy, or sex. And then there are the ones who just looked at the site once, or their emails were stolen. I also think that most people are screwed up in some fashion, and age doesn't improve it. Maybe some of us just learn to accept it, in some way. :)
 
DeYaKen said:
The problem is that if the campaign fails, which it surely will. The campaign itself will turn out to be the best advertising the writer could get. Amazon will not pull the book if it is selling well. It will sell well because the campaign gives it a lot of publicity, and some will think "better buy it now before it gets pulled."

We had similar things happening with pop music in the sixties and seventies. The BBC controlled the airwaves and would ban the playing of records they found offensive. It was soon realised that having your record banned by the BBC was almost a guarantee of chart success.

Example of banned songs
Je taime (Moi non plus) Serge Gainsborough and Jane Birkin (only french language song to reach No1)
I would rather go blind Chicken Shack
A day in the Life The Beatles
Click to expand...

Relax, Frankie goes to Hollywood ?

It strikes me that this campaign is similar to those Animal Rights folk who pilloried a Bank because they were the bank for an Animal Experiments firm ?
And there are several other examples.
 
LadyVer said:
:) I've been thinking about how aging makes one question a lot of things. Twenty years ago I would have said to the Ashley Madison hack, well, they--those who went on AM--deserve the repercussions. Cheating is wrong. My attitude today is that life is not all black and white, when people who are desperate and lonely, like those whose partners have been in comas for years, or whose partners refuse to have sex with them, that AM is one way for people to get at least some kind of intimacy or connection with others, although from my reading about AM, I would guess it would be hard for anyone to get any real intimacy, or sex. And then there are the ones who just looked at the site once, or their emails were stolen. I also think that most people are screwed up in some fashion, and age doesn't improve it. Maybe some of us just learn to accept it, in some way. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, as I get older I tend more and more towards "life is tough and relationships are complicated, cheating's rarely a good solution but sometimes good people cheat".
 
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