God

Dixon Carter Lee said:

Let's also not pretend that proof isn't just as important to the faithful as it is to the skeptic. Because it is. Maybe even more so...

The faithful, those who accept irrational ideas despite the lack of evidence, and purely for emotional and fearful reasons, will wax poetic on the noble state of non-evidentiary belief. "I don't need proof!"

They speak crap. They crave evidence. Deep down we are investigatory creatures. We are pattern seekers. Our brains, our evolutionary make up forces us towards critical thinking and symbol recognition. We NEED evidence.

Religious faith does, too. Put on a TV special about the Shroud of Turin and how many faithful won't tune in because they don't "need" the evidence? Documentaries about the historical Jesus and photos of Noah's "Ark" on a mountain in Turkey are hugely popular amongst the faithful. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other early AD century texts are poured over for a scrap of historical testimony that jibes with Roman record keeping. And look at the book TryHarder just referenced above. It is an astonishingly detailed (and badly compiled) look at EVIDENCE for Christian veracity. The faithful, like the rest of humanity, move desperately towards Proof. They need it. They crave it. They'll say it's not necessary, but put a splinter of Christ's cross in front of them and they'll post the photos all over Facebook with uppper case captioned "AMENS!" and "AH-HAHS!", thrilled, finally, to the core that some mother-fucking PROOF has been unearthed.

Don't tell me the faithful don't want proof. They cream over it.

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For the record, I do not identify as an atheist. But this post is spot on...

Humans have that subconscious need to know; where we came from, what happens when we die? The "god has a plan" is the easy way out. Everyone being in their own stage of evolution makes me go easy on the believers...

phrodeau said:

If I was a believer of what? If I believed in the Bible, I wouldn't want to change anything in it.

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Then how can you find it reprehensible that religious leaders who believe in it are happy to keep it the way it is?

Image said:

For the record, I do not identify as an atheist. But this post is spot on...

Humans have that subconscious need to know; where we came from, what happens when we die? The "god has a plan" is the easy way out. Everyone being in their own stage of evolution makes me go easy on the believers...

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I disagree that it is the easy way out. It's just the one that makes the most common sense.

Tryharder62 said:

Then how can you find it reprehensible that religious leaders who believe in it are happy to keep it the way it is?

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Because people bicker, fight and start wars over its contents.

Did I say that before?

Dixon Carter Lee said:

Let's also not pretend that proof isn't just as important to the faithful as it is to the skeptic. Because it is. Maybe even more so...

The faithful, those who accept irrational ideas despite the lack of evidence, and purely for emotional and fearful reasons, will wax poetic on the noble state of non-evidentiary belief. "I don't need proof!"

They speak crap. They crave evidence. Deep down we are investigatory creatures. We are pattern seekers. Our brains, our evolutionary make up forces us towards critical thinking and symbol recognition. We NEED evidence.

Religious faith does, too. Put on a TV special about the Shroud of Turin and how many faithful won't tune in because they don't "need" the evidence? Documentaries about the historical Jesus and photos of Noah's "Ark" on a mountain in Turkey are hugely popular amongst the faithful. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other early AD century texts are poured over for a scrap of historical testimony that jibes with Roman record keeping. And look at the book TryHarder just referenced above. It is an astonishingly detailed (and badly compiled) look at EVIDENCE for Christian veracity. The faithful, like the rest of humanity, move desperately towards Proof. They need it. They crave it. They'll say it's not necessary, but put a splinter of Christ's cross in front of them and they'll post the photos all over Facebook with uppper case captioned "AMENS!" and "AH-HAHS!", thrilled, finally, to the core that some mother-fucking PROOF has been unearthed.

Don't tell me the faithful don't want proof. They cream over it.

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This was quite a good post.

phrodeau said:

Because people bicker, fight and start wars over its contents.

Did I say that before?

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You did, but then you contradict yourself in saying on the one hand it is reprehensible for those who believe in the bible to want to keep it the way it is, and then on the other hand saying if you believed in it you wouldn't want to change it. It sounds like semantic backflips to me.

You are right though. I don't want people to bicker, fight and start wars over it either. I just wish everyone could play nice.

CHNOPS said:

This was quite a good post.

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Why wouldn't all intelligent human being want proof of their beliefs. That is why scientists study, archeologists study, Christians study, etc. I think everyone should keep studying. At some point though you have to look at what you study and make a choice in what you believe. As to the book I reference it has thoroughly been updated and surprisingly needed very little changes even with advances in science. It is just a resource. I can only offer it to you as such. Take what you like and leave the rest.

Tryharder62 said:

Why wouldn't all intelligent human being want proof of their beliefs. That is why scientists study, archeologists study, Christians study, etc. I think everyone should keep studying. At some point though you have to look at what you study and make a choice in what you believe. As to the book I reference it has thoroughly been updated and surprisingly needed very little changes even with advances in science. It is just a resource. I can only offer it to you as such. Take what you like and leave the rest.

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This, on the other hand...

CHNOPS said:

This, on the other hand...

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was even better right? I also have some other "equipment" that the other poster doesn't have. I might even be willing to "show" you some evidence. I am all for "exposing" the truth.

Image said:

For the record, I do not identify as an atheist. But this post is spot on...

Humans have that subconscious need to know; where we came from, what happens when we die? The "god has a plan" is the easy way out. Everyone being in their own stage of evolution makes me go easy on the believers...

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For fucks sake, you're a fucking neo-pagan. Quit acting superior. Fucking Mormons laugh at your dumb ass.

Dixon Carter Lee said:

Let's also not pretend that proof isn't just as important to the faithful as it is to the skeptic. Because it is. Maybe even more so...

The faithful, those who accept irrational ideas despite the lack of evidence, and purely for emotional and fearful reasons, will wax poetic on the noble state of non-evidentiary belief. "I don't need proof!"

They speak crap. They crave evidence. Deep down we are investigatory creatures. We are pattern seekers. Our brains, our evolutionary make up forces us towards critical thinking and symbol recognition. We NEED evidence.

Religious faith does, too. Put on a TV special about the Shroud of Turin and how many faithful won't tune in because they don't "need" the evidence? Documentaries about the historical Jesus and photos of Noah's "Ark" on a mountain in Turkey are hugely popular amongst the faithful. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other early AD century texts are poured over for a scrap of historical testimony that jibes with Roman record keeping. And look at the book TryHarder just referenced above. It is an astonishingly detailed (and badly compiled) look at EVIDENCE for Christian veracity. The faithful, like the rest of humanity, move desperately towards Proof. They need it. They crave it. They'll say it's not necessary, but put a splinter of Christ's cross in front of them and they'll post the photos all over Facebook with uppper case captioned "AMENS!" and "AH-HAHS!", thrilled, finally, to the core that some mother-fucking PROOF has been unearthed.

Don't tell me the faithful don't want proof. They cream over it.

Click to expand...

To nitpick cuz I got nothing else to do right now, if they need proof then they don't have faith. Can't have it both ways. They can say they have faith but if they're actively searching for proof then they're liars.

Faith has nothing to do with proof...

...faith has everything to do with hope.

eyer said:

Faith has nothing to do with proof...

...faith has everything to do with hope.

There is no such thing as proof...

...there is only evidence.​

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I have proof that 99.9% of the time you annoy the shit out of me but once in a while you'll post something like you did in the hooker thread about redheadtxn that makes me laugh.

Tryharder62 said:

You did, but then you contradict yourself in saying on the one hand it is reprehensible for those who believe in the bible to want to keep it the way it is, and then on the other hand saying if you believed in it you wouldn't want to change it. It sounds like semantic backflips to me.

You are right though. I don't want people to bicker, fight and start wars over it either. I just wish everyone could play nice.

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That's not exactly what I said. My words were "today's religious leaders". Particularly those few who accept modern cosmology and the evolution of species, yet still insist that their children are taught about the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark.

Image said:

For the record, I do not identify as an atheist. But this post is spot on...

Humans have that subconscious need to know; where we came from, what happens when we die? The "god has a plan" is the easy way out. Everyone being in their own stage of evolution makes me go easy on the believers...

Click to expand...

You believe December is witty, funny and concise. Stfu.

KRCummings said:

To nitpick cuz I got nothing else to do right now, if they need proof then they don't have faith. Can't have it both ways. They can say they have faith but if they're actively searching for proof then they're liars.

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It's not what they "have", though. It's how they behave. Irrational actions taken because of people who think they're acting faithfully are real, even if their faith is spurious.

Dixon Carter Lee said:

Let's also not pretend that proof isn't just as important to the faithful as it is to the skeptic. Because it is. Maybe even more so...

The faithful, those who accept irrational ideas despite the lack of evidence, and purely for emotional and fearful reasons, will wax poetic on the noble state of non-evidentiary belief. "I don't need proof!"

They speak crap. They crave evidence. Deep down we are investigatory creatures. We are pattern seekers. Our brains, our evolutionary make up forces us towards critical thinking and symbol recognition. We NEED evidence.

Religious faith does, too. Put on a TV special about the Shroud of Turin and how many faithful won't tune in because they don't "need" the evidence? Documentaries about the historical Jesus and photos of Noah's "Ark" on a mountain in Turkey are hugely popular amongst the faithful. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other early AD century texts are poured over for a scrap of historical testimony that jibes with Roman record keeping. And look at the book TryHarder just referenced above. It is an astonishingly detailed (and badly compiled) look at EVIDENCE for Christian veracity. The faithful, like the rest of humanity, move desperately towards Proof. They need it. They crave it. They'll say it's not necessary, but put a splinter of Christ's cross in front of them and they'll post the photos all over Facebook with uppper case captioned "AMENS!" and "AH-HAHS!", thrilled, finally, to the core that some mother-fucking PROOF has been unearthed.

Don't tell me the faithful don't want proof. They cream over it.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Pattern recognition is what allows us to collect, process, and store information efficiently - the thrill of guessing conclusions and filling in the gaps is what excites us about stories and music. It does not speak to any latent desire for proof. In fact, I would imagine that it played a large role in the advent of religion in the first place. We created mythologies to fill the gaps of what we were unable to answer through observation. Over the years, science has filled more and more of these gaps, but as an atheist, I won't deny that there are still plenty. Personally, I find that exciting, but as humans, we're not exactly programmed to be content with "Well, we'll figure it out eventually!"

Aristotelian reasoning was similarly borne from a burning need to explain and a distinct lack of evidence. We are inquisitive creatures, to be sure, but the proclivity to believe what we are told by authority figures without seeking personal confirmation has played just as large a role in our biological and societal evolution.

I agree with what KRC said, and I would also argue that a fixation on items of religious significance such as the dead sea scrolls and the Shroud of Turin is because we like tangible tokens and symbols. Prayer and bible study are meant in large part as a means to bring oneself closer to God and to Jesus. I don't think it's unreasonable to categorize the desire to touch and hold something Jesus touched or wore or owned as an extension of that. I do think there's merit to what you're saying. Of course some want proof, and an even greater number are glad for it when it materializes, but most religious people I know are not deterred by a lack of it, and that's a key distinction.

eyer said:

Faith has nothing to do with proof...

...faith has everything to do with hope.

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Yeah, hoping you are right having faith in something when there's no proof....

KRCummings said:

To nitpick cuz I got nothing else to do right now, if they need proof then they don't have faith. Can't have it both ways. They can say they have faith but if they're actively searching for proof then they're liars.

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I like this post.

Dixon Carter Lee said:

It's not what they "have", though. It's how they behave. Irrational actions taken because of people who think they're acting faithfully are real, even if their faith is spurious.

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I find it interesting that Vox Day took time to look into all wars and found 123 wars that could validly be claimed to have religion at their heart. A grand total of 6.98% of all wars fought. It is also interesting to note that more than half of those, 66 in all, were raged by Islamic Nations. So if 6.98% of wars were fought by believers with some faith who is raging the other 93.02%?

Tryharder62 said:

I find it interesting that Vox Day took time to look into all wars and found 123 wars that could validly be claimed to have religion at their heart. A grand total of 6.98% of all wars fought. It is also interesting to note that more than half of those, 66 in all, were raged by Islamic Nations. So if 6.98% of wars were fought by believers with some faith who is raging the other 93.02%?

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It's quite simple really. Even though a war may not be specifically a religious war, everyone involved in war believes they have right on their side and that 'their' god is watching over them. For example:

"Oh merciful lord… crown our effort with victory… and give us faith in the inevitable power of light over darkness, of justice over evil and brutal force… Of the cross of Christ over the Fascist swastika… so be it, amen." The Archbishop of Moscow, 1941

"Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world, and that God will preserve it always." General Douglas Macarthur, 1945

Whow

This thread just keeps going...

Tryharder62 said:

See I know ways to simplify your life. The donut fellowship is at church and it is free. They even bring the donuts in from dunkin donuts. Then a lot of people sit around and eat them, drink coffee and talk. No cost, no prison sentence. It's a good alternative.

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sounds good

fair_warning said:

It's quite simple really. Even though a war may not be specifically a religious war, everyone involved in war believes they have right on their side and that 'their' god is watching over them. For example:

"Oh merciful lord… crown our effort with victory… and give us faith in the inevitable power of light over darkness, of justice over evil and brutal force… Of the cross of Christ over the Fascist swastika… so be it, amen." The Archbishop of Moscow, 1941

"Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world, and that God will preserve it always." General Douglas Macarthur, 1945

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So you are saying that it doesn't matter if the war was started for a religious reason or not it is still the believers fault. Then you say that "everyone" involved in war believes they have right on their side and that "their" God is watching over them. I think everyone is a pretty broad statement which would include you and your God.

I'll admit I wanted the Nazi's to lose. I am also all for Macarther praying for peace and enlisting someone who is willing to help.

As to your earlier post with eyer about hope being hope that our faith is right. I don't need hope that my faith is right. I have hope in Christ. I am 100% positive that I have made the right choice for me. I am also not arrogant enough to put anybody else down who chooses to believe different.

I can only show you the evidence of my life. Tell you the story of the peace that came into my life when I stopped trying to be god and gave control to a higher power I call Jesus Christ. I can tell you of experiences of feeling an immense presense when I had to make the terrible decision to stop treatment on my father - my best friend when he was at the end of his battle with cancer. I was not alone. Those things don't get far when people disagree with you. It is only my job to share it and let you take what you like and leave the rest.

like god, i'm perfect...WOOOO! lol

damn i'm outta my mind.