Doormat- a byproduct of approach?

Primalex said:

Often enough you don't even know whether doing something or not doing something causes more harm. It takes time to learn how another human ticks and it's a bumpy road. Just because you are "submissive" and found someone who is "dominant", does not suddenly mean your relationship can ward off automagically negative emotions or experiences. Already your notion that a submissive could not affect the dominant in a negative way is ridiculous.

You can have your point of view, but for me it's as cheesy as "real men do X".

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Farawyn said:

No one is a mind reader. Or perfect. We are all human and allowed flaws and mistakes.
We (me) should strive to be the best we can most of the time, but that’s true in any relationship. Relationships are also about who we can be our crap selves with some days, cause, bad days happen.

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Wait! Are you saying that Doms aren't Gods who can magically read minds and always be perfect? But all the books say...

Primalex said:

...You can have your point of view, but for me it's as cheesy as "real men do X".

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Perhaps this is the crux of the difference in opinions. Every person is different in many ways. What is true for one person, seems impossible to another. My worldview in general, no doubt shades all aspects of my life...and that's true of us all. I have spent many years trying to "practice what I preach" in regard to "do no harm". There are others who do it better...and some who do it less...and many who are unaware of the concept. All I can do is me.

bluekitty69 said:

if I tryed to talk about our lack of sex he shut me down by making me the bad guy, guilt me into feeling he sould be enough for me or who else would work so hard for the family.

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Stress is a bitch though. Next to medication side effects it's likely #1 sex killer.
(Not saying that his reaction was a good one.)

Double post....Lit is weird sometimes

I have read all of this thread and I am impressed as hell with you people. I always have been to a certain degree, but this discussion just seems so well done. *

To add a piece in here, as I read along, if you really want to break this down, doormat, D/s, pleasers, online Doms, 24/7 D and s, vanilla relationships, and really the full cafeteria range here speaks to me of just one thing.

Trust

Trustworthiness too if you want to add that in.

Do you trust your partner to take care of you when you are doing the doormat thing? Do they abuse that trust and take it for granted, mock you, neglect you or what? Are you praised, acknowledged, loved, helped to pull out if it when you've gone too far?

Some of you have mentioned how that trust gets built in the trenches, dealing with each other on a crap day, etc. I think we all must have been there a time or two.

Has anyone had to safeword from in the trenches? To others, isn't that the same as saying timeout? Do you honor your partner with boundaries and space?

In the end, I think you know if your partner is worthy, not because they are a doormat or Dominant or submissive, or jello, but because they see you and will stand up to you and you to them. Much harder for some to stand up to a friend or lover than to an enemy or stranger. That emotionally we are discovering, often enough, our own limits and how to understand ourselves better to be a better partner. Yes we fail at times. It is a part of the nature of human existence.

My avatar is Wile E Coyote. If you've ever watched the toons, he fails always. The next day he is at it again and again and again and again. I don't see a failure. I see a guy that never gives up. To me, that is not failure, that's an enthusiasm in living of an entirely different level that most people cannot comprehend. Some may argue its a toon, its foolish, whatever. Not me.

Where the fuck was I going with this.... oh yea......we know or soon find out, when our partner has given up on us. People will have bad days, and some will own that, especially when they see you have not given up on them. With some of us, we become just as likely to give up on ourselves after a bad experience. How hard is it to recover a relationship from that? Extremely. Enthusiasm, drive, desire, want to, need to.

Here's a question....Have you ever found yourself becoming a doormat after a bad experience in order to redress your own wrongs? Does your partner take advantage of that? How do you pull out of that? Does your partner help you to pull out of that? Or do they compound it?

Trust. I trust and teach my partner about me and trust and learn about her. Our enthusiasm for each other ebbs and flows but is always consistently there with each of our bests interests in mind. In this I trust. In this sometimes I fail. I don't want to fail her or myself, but it can happen, I'm not infallible. Nor is she infallible either. We make our mistakes, own them, and try like hell to not do them again, and sometimes we fail that too. That's humanity.

With time and experience, I have learned a deeper appreciation and trust for my partner because she does not give up on me, even at my worst. Is she a doormat for that? Hell no, and I would not like her to be one. That's not who she is. I don't need or want a child that can't think for themselves (and thats not everyone that holds themself forward as a doormat or whatver...I think y'all get my meaning). If anything, I hope I encourage her to be herself and not anything like that. That despite all this, she chooses to exercise submission with me, makes it that much more powerful for me.

And in the same vein, I do not give up on her and trust her to be straight with me about everything. We find a way. Because we see each other. Really see. We know our individual character and that enthusiasm for living and level of trust and desire for trustworthiness says it all. We do not give up.

I've rambled off enough thoughts for two oclock in the morning.

Quite an interesting thread . :-D

Enjoying sipping my coffee while reading relevant posts...

cookiecat said:

It's about being useful. Knowing and serving a purpose. It doesn't mean getting walked all over, but being THERE. Counted on in a quiet, steadfast way.

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This sounds really nice. And I definitely want my partner to always KNOW that they can count on me, and that I'm always there for them in whatever capacity they need. Not sure I'm very good at being "quiet". I think I also prefer to have a specific task to focus on.

(Maybe my problem with the "doormat" wording is thinking of it as waiting around to be needed. Then maybe the fear that moment won't come. Like, you might just go unnoticed if you're happy with laying on the stoop waiting for a rainy day.)

yukonnights said:

The big difference is that D/s should be a nurturing expression of the innate traits we have...a place where they can be 're-set' into a healthy state...a state where the person we really are is cherished by another person. The 'real world' is where our innate traits are too often abused and warped by 'normal people'.

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This makes me feel...happy, hopeful. It's nice. Makes that kind of relationship even more special.

cookiecat said:

Being in a relationship where I see myself as having doormat qualities isn't always easy. To be compliant, obedient, to remember I've chosen to be in a relationship where he is the decision maker, he is in control takes a lot of will. I like to think of myself as a pretty strong chick.

I don't outright think every single day, Hey! I'm a doormat! Welcome! It's just one of those things I think about every so often. Doormat isn't boring. It's not about feeling walked on or being taken for granted. None of that stuff associated with the cliche doormat definition.

Is "doormat" just being a nice, thoughtful person, according to me? A little bit. It's also providing my Dominant with a safe space to be whatever we decided together. Daddy, Master, Sir, Owner or just himself.

Thinking of myself as a doormat gives him a place to feel loved, respected, adored without being feisty and challenging and making him jump through my hoops. Doormat is being quiet. Listening. Not making him pick up the pieces of my mess all the damn time. It's being the one.

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I like that you, and others, can "own" your doormat qualities with pride and affection. Makes me think you must be secure in your own self worth, and very confident and strong.

During the holidays, my Master gave me a task for the day...to respond to normal requests from friends and family quickly, with a smile, and an extra happy attitude, being thankful for the opportunity to help and serve as if each request came from him. For someone with such a submissive nature that should have sounded easy, but I had a small moment of panic. Afraid I wouldn't be able to do it. When I expressed that to Sir, I think he was probably a little confused or surprised by my reaction. He explained that it wasn't supposed to stress me out. It was meant to be enjoyable. Not a pass/fail as long as I tried. After I calmed down, I realized it wasn't much different from my normal behavior. It did add pleasure to be doing it for him, and I had a very nice day. I mentioned this because that moment of panic/doubt confused me too. Looking back, I realized it wasn't because I thought I couldn't do it. It was a fear of being taken advantage of in a negative "doormat" kind of way. Even though my friends and family would never intentionally do that, sometimes people don't realize when they're asking too much. Especially if you always seem so happy to help. It's a hard thing to balance for me.

BensSweetSubmissive said:

I like that you, and others, can "own" your doormat qualities with pride and affection. Makes me think you must be secure in your own self worth, and very confident and strong.

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This very much depends on the experiences you have made in your life.

Depends on where she is on the continuum of compliance. I have little interest in or patience with bratty submission, although I get why they like to be "made" to submit and some dominants enjoy the challenge. I freely admit I may be lazy in that regard.

As far as her being eager to please and dare I say compliant?. . .yes, please; to go.

As far as her being a doormat, I see that as a historical artifact, and a bit of a warning sign with regard to neediness. If I am not wiping my feet on her, she is not a doormat currently, even if that is her history.

Her acting like a doormat now would either be my inspiring that, or not insisting she be engaged. I'm verbal. I like to insist she vocalize her interest in wherever the kink is headed. This either gets us both had it in the same direction or alerts me early to what should be some expressed reticence.

Stag of Oberon said:

Reverse abandonment complexes (where you cannot abandon others) fuckin suuuuuuck.

Bad enough that it's so difficult to make that long overdue decision to leave, but when an ex discovers they can use it to control you.... Well that's at the Crux of my experience with "the hag". Enough said on that.

I can see it being perfectly nightmarish in a D/s relationship from either side.

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This.
That was me. Minus the D/s.

See, and I see much of what cookie is taking about as being in love in a relationship. Giving as much as you can. That’s not doormatty. That’s trusting love.

Farawyn said:

See, and I see much of what cookie is taking about as being in love in a relationship. Giving as much as you can. That’s not doormatty. That’s trusting love.

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Exactly.

Farawyn said:

See, and I see much of what cookie is taking about as being in love in a relationship. Giving as much as you can. That’s not doormatty. That’s trusting love.

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Part of it is label-speak. Perhaps "doormat" is the opposite of "bratty"??

A question I've been thinking a lot about is what - as a submissive - do you bring to the relationship? (General "you") What does your submission add to the relationship?

cookiecat said:

Part of it is label-speak. Perhaps "doormat" is the opposite of "bratty"??

A question I've been thinking a lot about is what - as a submissive - do you bring to the relationship? (General "you") What does your submission add to the relationship?

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Sexually? Or across the board?

Farawyn said:

Sexually? Or across the board?

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I was thinking across the board. That being said, whatever feels comfortable to answer.

I wasn't going to throw in my two cents, hoping people would just reply but I think I'm being too vague.

Pondering the fact I dig doormat stuff, I wonder if that gives off some vibe that I want the D to make all my choices. That I'm a "whatever" s. He tells me what to do, I do it. (So not true, but it has me thinking...)

In my past, I've looked to D/s relationships as a way to fill in my blanks, so to speak. (Beyond the kinky sex ) I've talked a bit about seeing myself as a "hot mess" - which I haven't seen as a flaw as much as I see it as just part of me. The fact there are guys out there who like to control, who enjoyed setting me on a path of "betterment" was a happy discovery.

Lately, though, because of personal circumstances, I'm seeing myself in a different light. Which skews how I see D/s relationships (for me). I'm rethinking my sense of submission.

Sooo - the question: I'm not asking what YOU bring to the relationship. What do you - as a submissive - bring to it?

I’m not sure some of you are even describing “doormat” certainly not what I would see as doormat. And as far as I was understanding..bdsm isn’t just about sex so it’s not strange to me to think that there would be compliance outside the sexual practices. I had a good teacher though when I was first learning. He was also very clear that compliance wasn’t the same as having no power.
I still had choice and my hard no becomes his no too. It was a huge breath of fresh air from abusive background. Where making decisions felt like power but we’re not because they were done from fear and lack of choice.

A doormat completely lacks self esteem. The Dom is lucky to know what the sub wants without telepathy because the answer will be “whatever you want”. I’ve been a doormat too. It’s actually how I am in my current relationship. It’s a darker phase I’m going through I guess. Trying to work out myself and ending up just asking him not to ask me what I want. So yeah doormat. He’s not a Dom..it’s still frustrating for him but I guess not as much as it would be for a good Dom who wants you to set your boundaries so everyone feels safe and he knows you are mentally and emotionally safe. I check out a lot of the time.

Beth87 said:

I’m not sure some of you are even describing “doormat” certainly not what I would see as doormat. And as far as I was understanding..bdsm isn’t just about sex so it’s not strange to me to think that there would be compliance outside the sexual practices. I had a good teacher though when I was first learning. He was also very clear that compliance wasn’t the same as having no power.
I still had choice and my hard no becomes his no too. It was a huge breath of fresh air from abusive background. Where making decisions felt like power but we’re not because they were done from fear and lack of choice.

A doormat completely lacks self esteem. The Dom is lucky to know what the sub wants without telepathy because the answer will be “whatever you want”. I’ve been a doormat too. It’s actually how I am in my current relationship. It’s a darker phase I’m going through I guess. Trying to work out myself and ending up just asking him not to ask me what I want. So yeah doormat. He’s not a Dom..it’s still frustrating for him but I guess not as much as it would be for a good Dom who wants you to set your boundaries so everyone feels safe and he knows you are mentally and emotionally safe. I check out a lot of the time.

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I agree.
A doormat: He wipes his shitty boots and leaves you outside. He doesn’t wipe his heart or his mind.

I checked out a lot in my past relationship as his doormat. I used to drive around the block until he left. Because I knew once I walked in he would wipe his feet on me and that would be it. Ours was not BDSM.

I see doormat as very different from being of service or use. And very non loving.
To “play” doormat for an afternoon, yes. But not for life.

I want to be the one for him. That’s not doormat. That’s love, and trusting he won’t abuse that, and it has a lot more to do with his muddy boots.

As far as what my submission brings to the relationship, cookie’s question ... I don’t know. You’d have to ask him.
I know we feed off each other, and that I’ve never been like this with anyone.
What he gives to me with his Dominance is a sense of self. Myself. I feel like a duck in water. Taking all I have to give is how I want to be loved and to love. How I’ve always wanted to love. The way he is makes it a true thing for me. Finally.
I imagine it’s the same for him with my submission.

Oh, and no. We are not D/s 24/7. The sexual dynamics do override, but much of that is my personality. I want to cook for you, make things nice for you, be the one to listen to you. That’s how I love... well, everybody I love. A nurturer.

Farawyn said:

See, and I see much of what cookie is taking about as being in love in a relationship. Giving as much as you can. That’s not doormatty. That’s trusting love.

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My parents have trusting love. My mom would not be willing ask permission to get her hair cut or stop swearing because dad said. There's a different aspect - for me - to being an s-type in a D/s relationship, which I tend to view as being compliant. Doormat-ish.

Nothing to do with shitty boots or low self-esteem. Perhaps a different set of experiences with which we perceive the word.

I'm giving up on the word from here on in. Good girl will do!!

cookiecat said:

My parents have trusting love. My mom would not be willing ask permission to get her hair cut or stop swearing because dad said. There's a different aspect - for me - to being an s-type in a D/s relationship, which I tend to view as being compliant. Doormat-ish.

Nothing to do with shitty boots or low self-esteem. Perhaps a different set of experiences with which we perceive the word.

I'm giving up on the word from here on in. Good girl will do!!

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I think because so many of us do see negative connotations, because our every day mirrors it, or did. And it is a loveless place to be.

Some subs hate “subservient” even though it has the word SUB in it. I think subservience is more what you are describing.

???

At any rate, I knew what you meant, but I also see why many (me included) feel strongly about the word.

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