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Forced/Reluctant Sex scenes?

Nezhul said:
...In fact it is very EASY to argue that.
What you are talking about is not the influence of a fantasy.
What you are talking about is called fashion and vogue. It's called popular trends, not the influence.
You are mixing cause and effect here.

Porn didn't chose this model of pussy to influence somebody in the first place. They chose it because men find it alluring.
Porn doesn't chose slim and fit models because they just want it like that - they did it because their target consumer likes it better.

What you referring to with labioplasty is not the influence. It's the cause of availability of choice and information, as well as proper technologies to pull such surgeries off.
In the past, people didn't have access to so much visual material, and didn't think much about which type of pussy they like better. A pussy was a pussy, period.
Now people can formulate their tastes, these tastes outline the porn inductry, and in turn it is making those tastes well-knows for women who may want to satisfy them.
It's like following fashion trends, wanting to be stylish. It's not about being brainwashed into liking A rather than B.

Rape or fetish fantasies is not something you start liking BECAUSE you watched some porn. In fact I got all of my fetish fantasies BEFORE watching any porn. I remember being wanting to be tied up and getting a hard-on out of it when I was in kindergarten. I didn't even know what the erection was FOR back then, and I was never abused or exposed to the concept of tying someone up or being tied up or restrained. I just got the fantasy.
I remember fantasizing about women in prison settings even before I knew there was in fact such porn available. I was very vanilla until I was 20, and then I watched a random clip on the net and found out there was such thing as BDSM and people actually did that. I never imagined this was even a consideration before.
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If you want to understand the connection between influence and popular trend, I suggest you read the story of Beau Brummell – how one man became the arbiter of taste in Regency England. That will change your view as to which leads which.

I would also point you to a recent British study that asked why men preferred women to shave off their pubic hair. Something like 80 per cent said it was because that was how their favourite porn stars looked.
 
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There is a difference between fiction and reality. We can easily replace this subject with incest for example. We can find that while in reality Incest is generally frowned upon, when it comes to fictional pieces, people can find it to be an erotic subject. But will a person who loves reading Incest stories suddenly feel the need to go and bang their mom/daughter/son/father?

It's the same situation here.

Rape (Non-Con) is fantasized and sugar-coated in fiction for what it actually is in real life. No decent person really wants to go and traumatize someone else like that in a way like that and if they do, well they deserve jail or whatever repercussion they receive.

But we're talking about fiction here. As in, not real. It's the perception that despite the fact that what is taking place is forceful, invasive, humiliating, there is as least some element of pleasure taken from it. This is especially true if the piece was written as an erotic story.
 
I would also point you to a recent British study that asked why men preferred women to shave off their pubic hair. Something like 80 per cent said it was because that was how their favourite porn stars looked.
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That's the case of confused judgment.

The real reason is not that. They just say it is because they can't properly analyze shy they like the shaved pussies on those porn stars.

A favorite porn star is just an example of an ideal woman. But what exactly makes her this ideal example is a number of qualities that turn the men on for reasons not connected to that girl. In other words, you like the porn star BECAUSE her pussy is shaved, among other things. It's NOT that you like a shaved pussy because of a porn star.

Again, you confuse cause and effect.

Shaved pussy looks younger. Pre-adolescent.
Shaved pussy looks neater. A bush often looks bad because you can't really control how your hairs grow.
Shaved pussy looks cleaner. It is visibly seen how clean the skin is.
Shaved pussy provides better view. You can see all the folds in greater detail, nothing gets in the way. Men are mostly visually stimulated creatures to begin with. The arousal is better seen too.
At last, shaved pussy feels better to the touch and for fucking. A soft warm skin feels better than a bunch of hairs.

Granted, there are always other reasons. And there are always those who like the hair. But those reason above are what makes it for most.
 
OmnislashXX said:
...But will a person who loves reading Incest stories suddenly feel the need to go and bang their mom/daughter/son/father?
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Not always, but what about the person who already has an unfulfilled inclination towards it and finds validation in the stories that appear here? Aren't they more likely to feel justification of their need to go and bang their mom/daughter/son/father? Or coerce their girlfriend into unwelcome sex?

For all you know, Donald Trump's been reading non-consent stories on Lit and that's why he thinks it's fine to touch women up against their will.
 
You sound more and more like a zealot. Some kind of morale fanatic who deems all people brainless dummies who don't think things through after reading them and find justification for crime in erotic stories.

Well, then let's ban everything, shall we?
Horror movies justify us being bloodthirsty maniacs.
Teenage comedies justify us being dicks to each other.
Action movies justify us killing people right and left.
Detective shows justify us tampering with the crime scene and obstruct the work of police.

And so on. Let's ban all the fiction to begin with. Or else, you know, someone will watch Game of Thrones and think it's OK to put his hands into fire, because it obviously doesn't burn your skin.
 
Nezhul said:
That's the case of confused judgment.

The real reason is not that. They just say it is because they can't properly analyze shy they like the shaved pussies on those porn stars.

A favorite porn star is just an example of an ideal woman. But what exactly makes her this ideal example is a number of qualities that turn the men on for reasons not connected to that girl. In other words, you like the porn star BECAUSE her pussy is shaved, among other things. It's NOT that you like a shaved pussy because of a porn star.

Again, you confuse cause and effect.

Shaved pussy looks younger. Pre-adolescent.
Shaved pussy looks neater. A bush often looks bad because you can't really control how your hairs grow.
Shaved pussy looks cleaner. It is visibly seen how clean the skin is.
Shaved pussy provides better view. You can see all the folds in greater detail, nothing gets in the way. Men are mostly visually stimulated creatures to begin with. The arousal is better seen too.
At last, shaved pussy feels better to the touch and for fucking. A soft warm skin feels better than a bunch of hairs.

Granted, there are always other reasons. And there are always those who like the hair. But those reason above are what makes it for most.
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Well, I can only go by what they answered. The survey gave them other answers to choose from including the 'reasons' you've listed. They didn't select them.

That is supported by another survey of women. They were asked about their partners'/boyfriends' views on pubic hair. The majority said that their partners had asked them to shave because that was how porn stars looked. That was their primary reason. Not because it was clean (which is a fallacy anyway), not because it looked tidier or any of the other reasons. If their favourite porn stars had all had bushy pubic hair and long, protruding labia, that's the look they'd have wanted on their girlfriends.
 
Green_Knight said:
Not always, but what about the person who already has an unfulfilled inclination towards it and finds validation in the stories that appear here? Aren't they more likely to feel justification of their need to go and bang their mom/daughter/son/father? Or coerce their girlfriend into unwelcome sex?

For all you know, Donald Trump's been reading non-consent stories on Lit and that's why he thinks it's fine to touch women up against their will.
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Yes, but that's not the fault of the author. By that measure, the person has already reached a point where he's liable to perform those acts. An author writes to provide entertainment, but he has no control over who is going to read his/her works, nor has control over what happens afterwards.

I doubt the Donald surfs Lit though. By now Comey would have spilled the beans and we'd be hearing about it on CNN.
 
Green_Knight said:
Not always, but what about the person who already has an unfulfilled inclination towards it and finds validation in the stories that appear here?
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The Bible and the Qur'an between them are far more dangerous and ubiquitous sources for weaponizing the inclinations of violent kooks than anything on Lit. I think you can ease back on the moral panic throttle there, champ.
 
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CyranoJ said:
The Bible and the Qur'an between them are far more dangerous and ubiquitous sources for weaponizing the inclinations of violent kooks than anything on Lit. I think you can ease back on the moral panic throttle there, champ.
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Never a truer word spoken. We all know lit is fiction. People take those other two literally, particularly the Qu'ran with its legitimizing of violence against women, sexual assault and pedophilia.
 
ChloeTzang said:
Never a truer word spoken. We all know lit is fiction. People take those other two literally, particularly the Qu'ran with its legitimizing of violence against women, sexual assault and pedophilia.
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I don't think Bible is any better in this respect than Qu'ran really. It's just that western society have already had it's period of crusades and blind Bible-justified violence. Westerners left it behind them and nave matured their attitude towards bible. There still are sects and communities that treat the Bible so literally that they are no less abusive towards women and children than those that follow Qu'ran.

Those who follow Qu'ran are basically having their holy crusade right now. And like before the blind belief of uneducated masses is used by the other people to reach their goals. In the past, Kings used the Bible to justify expansion and intervention, as well as genocide. Right now? Terrorist leaders are doing pretty much the same thing.
 
Whew. Religion is another whole ball of wax in general. I think it might be better just to stay on topic here.
 
Omni is right. I didn't mean to send us off on a tangent.
 
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Green_Knight said:
To misquote William Shakespeare, 'Methinks thou dost protest too much'. You may cry 'foul' and complain of your words being twisted but your own words are very clear:



Maybe attitudes to rape and rape victims are different in Texas but as far as the law in many jurisdictions is concerned, a person who is 'reluctant to give in to their desires' is no more giving their consent to sex than someone who is dragged into the bushes by a stranger on a dark walk home. It doesn't matter whether it's a case of social norms or something else that's at the root of the person's reluctance. Without clear and unequivocal consent, it's still rape. So, too, is applying pressure or coercion on a reluctant person to turn 'no' into 'yes'.

Perhaps you'd like to talk to some of my colleagues – highly-trained police officers – who've had to deal with the victims of rape. You'd probably find talking about it to them (never mind the victims) a very harrowing experience but you would definitely come away with an altered perspective.

Only around 10 per cent of rapes are committed by 'strangers' – the sort of rapes you abhor. The rest are committed by men known to their victims, and often by someone who the victim has previously trusted or even loved – friends, colleagues, clients, neighbours, family members, partners or exes. Maybe even the sort of men who appear in your stories; I can't tell because you don't seem to have any non-consent stories under the GoldenCojones name.

The sub-title of the Non-Consent/Reluctance section makes it clear – it's about 'fantasies of control'. If your stories are truly about burgeoning relationships that eventually lead to sex in which no questions of coercion arise, then there are other sections into which they would fit very happily.

Yes, I know there are women who have fantasies of being forced into having sex against their will and no doubt they might enjoy stories of the type you've described – few, though, would want the fantasy to be turned into reality. But the problem I have with stories of this ilk is that you have no control over who reads them. I'm sure you're not so naïve as to believe that all Lit readers are sensible, well-balanced over-18s who can tell the difference between fiction and real-life. You'll have seen plenty of comments on Lit stories that will have disabused you of that idea. Do you really want to write stories that might persuade less-sensible or maladjusted readers that girls are naturally reluctant and it's quite ok to apply pressure to get them to change their minds?
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Once again you twist words and say they mean something they don't. You want to make me out a rapist. I'm not! Did you even read what I really said? Don't take pieces out of context!

I said that real EXPLICIT NON-FORCED CONSENT had to be given PRIOR to the sex starting.

And I abhor ALL rape. Look I don't know what I did to piss in your post toasties with my first post, but quit lying and twisting words. Because I like for characters to grow and change during a story does not make me a rapist. A woman who is repressed by the social norms of being a good girl but who feels perfectly natural desires and learns that what she wants trumps social norms and then agrees to have sex with the object of her desire is not being raped. She begins the story reluctant but grows throughout the story and changes. It is not rape! It is drama! It is character growth. If she was reluctant when the sex starts then yes that is rape and I would never ever write that. That is not what I said despite your lame attempts to twist my words.

One of the reasons I am so VERY adamant against non-con stories is that I have actually known women who have been raped. I know the horror they go through. And you are correct it doesn't matter if they know the rapist or not, that is totally irrelevant, but I never said it was okay for a friend to rape a woman! All I ever said, and you have quoted select pieces of it, is that character growth is not bad.

And you're correct I don't have any Non-Consent stories under GoldenCojones, nor under any other name. I don't write or read non-consent. You completely misconstrued what I said. You took a sentence about character growth and twisted it to mean something you wanted to attack, not what I said or anything I condone.

And how many times do I have to re-state the obvious! I never described a story of a woman being raped! A character going from being repressed to liberated is not being raped!

But I'm done. Every intelligent person who reads this exchange will know the truth. You never will because you refuse to accept it. But let me spell it out for you anyway. I don't condone rape of any form!
 
OmnislashXX said:
Whew. Religion is another whole ball of wax in general. I think it might be better just to stay on topic here.
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Religious texts and traditions are sufficiently ambiguous to allow theological cherry-pickers to justify almost any vile deed, including sexual slavery and straight-up rape. In many societies, one need only fervently claim to be divinely appointed to enjoy access to any orifice, any time, any place, with or without the owner's voluntary consent. Is "fuck me or you're eternally damned" persuasive?
 
Nezhul said:
Shit. I'm gonna try that as a pick-up line next time.:eek:
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You might need some backup on that. A flaming cross or something. Might be best to just start a cult. That's worked for lots of guys and gals. "Hi there, sinner. Wanna check out my holy rood? It's better than hellfire, you-betcha."
 
Hypoxia said:
You might need some backup on that. A flaming cross or something. Might be best to just start a cult. That's worked for lots of guys and gals. "Hi there, sinner. Wanna check out my holy rood? It's better than hellfire, you-betcha."
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A cult sounds nice. Wanna join and be the Grand Inquisitor?:cattail:
 
Nezhul said:
A cult sounds nice. Wanna join and be the Grand Inquisitor?:cattail:
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Inquisitor is too lowly a position. Dragon or Wizard or (P/M)atriarch or Blessed Leader works better. Although some grand boo-hoos have merely styled themselves as Chair(wo)man or Elder or Disciple. Or God.

As it happens, I started my own cult around 1972 and moved it online in the early 1990s. I have a huge library of sacred texts, and lots of kewl grafix, and a few hot spells, All I lack are followers. I blame the Church of the Barfing-Yak, the heretics who stole my following. They'll burn, oh yes they will...

But I digress. Charismatic leaders (religious, political, social, etc) can always order sexual obedience. That's a main perk of power, the ability to suborn others to slurp your genitals. Those who DON'T fuck underlings are the pervs.
 
Hypoxia said:
Religious texts and traditions are sufficiently ambiguous to allow theological cherry-pickers to justify almost any vile deed, including sexual slavery and straight-up rape. In many societies, one need only fervently claim to be divinely appointed to enjoy access to any orifice, any time, any place, with or without the owner's voluntary consent. Is "fuck me or you're eternally damned" persuasive?
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True. There are some third world societies out there that justify the kidnapping and raping of young women. Sometimes the parents and relatives even help. Some of those victims are also underaged so that just makes it doubly worse. I really can't imagine what that would be like, to have to become married to your rapist.

As I said, In reality, the subject is pretty terrible. That's why it skirts that fine line, even if it's fictional. There has to be some measure of enjoyment gained from the whole ordeal in order for it to even be considered erotic.
 
I really can't imagine what that would be like, to have to become married to your rapist.
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In those cultures that you describe that's a complete norm. Girls grow up knowing that this would someday happen, and even awaiting that day because it brings them value as human beings.
Of course there are plenty of those who are eventually unhappy, but they don't see it as rape. Rather, it's a normal sexual ritual for them.

It's like going to 11th century Europe and telling them that you want to get to know the girl intimately after 3rd date maximum. That's not really unsulual in our society today, but there you'd be looked at like a barbarian. And girls would wonder how could any sane woman survive the humiliation and abuse of being deflowered before wedding.

p.s. I don't know history very well, so the number 11 is off the top of my head.
 
Maybe 2 interesting cents

Carnal_Flower said:
Non Con is interesting bec it's (I think) the most highly read by females.
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What I've seen from sales of my stories on Smashwords and Amazon is that the rape by werewolf/canine monster is most popular. Especially if it gets her pregnant and give birth to adorable puppies. :p

I can't tell if it's female or male readers who buy this, although I do suspect females by the reaction of my girl, but it does reflect a study of preferences I've seen some time ago which came down to forced sex, weres and pregnancy as some of the most read themes.

While still rape, it turns into lust and essentially a romance with the monster for the female victims in what I wrote so far. I don't know if I could write straight up rape since it angers me when I even see a headline about it in the news. Knowing there's rape in a story often means I'm not even going to start reading or watching it. Never started on Game of Thrones for instance when I read it contained rape scenes.

For me there's a clear difference between reality and fiction. I think most people know this, but it seems those that try to ban fiction through legislation have the same mental problem as those commiting the real crime. No, grandma's pictures of her grandchildren playing in the bathtub is not pedophile pornography. If that's the first thing that comes to your mind you might want to see a psychiatrist.
Let people have their fantasies. I've read -of course Japanese- manga where a grown up man gets seduced by a little girl. It's just a plain funny thing to see in fiction. There are no such girls in real life and it would be an awkward situation, not erotic.

Anyway, hurting people in real life is horrible, but it makes for good entertainment in fiction for many and it does no harm to keep it available there.
After all, the news and high ratings is all about crime, violence and suffering, not about people loving each other.
 
So I'm super late to this thread, but I just want to note that:

Yes, rape is super bad, however. Lots of women enjoy rape fantasy as a kink, whether through erotica, cybersex roleplaying, or BDSM roleplaying. Some of these women are actually rape survivors themselves, and apparently the trauma can change over time to a fetish as a way of reclaiming their sexuality (or some such, I'm merely an armchair psychologist here).

Lit's rule is fairly specific on non-con/rape ending in the victim enjoying it, which maps just fine to the idea of rape victims coming to prefer feeling powerless during sex (whether simulated via the use of a safeword, or not).

It's not for everyone of course, but there's very much a readership out there for rape fantasy stuff. When you get right down to it, it's really not any more outrageously taboo than stories that focus on incest themes or bestiality themes (not here on Lit of course, but easily found elsewhere).
 
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