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Just putting it out there

Hypoxia said:
Better than finger food, with fingers.
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Magwitch is a great character, but his hands were probably too dirty to make for good finger-food ingredients. Jaggers would be a better option, as he constantly tried to wash away the grime of corruption.
 
OMG- now that I'm thinking about it, Great Expectations could be read as an incest novel.
If you haven't read it, you might have still heard of the character Pip, whose greatest wish in life is to be a gentleman, and a lawyer named Mr. Jaggers, who felicitously turns up in his life to help him achieve this- though he's only a middle man for a mysterious benefactor. Pip falls in love with Estella, who's being raised by the infamous Miss Havisham, who in turn slyly pretends to be Pip's benefactor.
The real benefactor turns out to be Magwitch, a criminal who was sent to prison in Australia after his encounter with young Pip (who helps the fleeing convict), and made his fortune there. Magwitch has always viewed Pip as his son, because his daughter would be about the same age if she was still alive. But unbeknownst to him, Estella is actually his daughter. So in a way they're brother and sister.
Potential historical fiction fiction?
 
Alice_Rosaleen said:
OMG- now that I'm thinking about it, Great Expectations could be read as an incest novel.
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Now that we're thinking about Dickens, perhaps we should consider the importance of the location of a period.

After all, by just moving the "decimal" one place to the right, Mr. Squeers becomes Mrs. Queers. A fitting name for the evil headmaster of Dotheboys Hall? Or is that Do-the-boys Hall?

Dickens - Incest, Homosexuality, Pederasty, Drunkeness! What other depravities may be found between his sordid sheets?
 
Tio_Narratore said:
Now that we're thinking about Dickens, perhaps we should consider the importance of the location of a period.

After all, by just moving the "decimal" one place to the right, Mr. Squeers becomes Mrs. Queers. A fitting name for the evil headmaster of Dotheboys Hall? Or is that Do-the-boys Hall?

Dickens - Incest, Homosexuality, Pederasty, Drunkeness! What other depravities may be found between his sordid sheets?
Click to expand...

When I read Oliver Twist for the first time, I was rolling at how Dickens refers to Charley Bates, a member of Fagin's band of thieves, as "Master Bates".
 
Keep in mind that Dickens grew up with The Year With No Summer (three years actually) and used that frigid setting for A Christmas Carol. Born three years later, he likely would have written something else.

ObTopic: Words are malleable when not strictly technical. We want specific reports. All else are fodder for wordplay and misinterpretation. We can make words mean what we want. Loads of mind-fucking fun.

Old joke: Two psychiatrists pass in a hallway. One says, "Hello." The other thinks, "I wonder what she meant by that?" (In the Bill Dana / Jose Jiminez version, the Cuban-accent shrink says "Jello." That double-quirks the joke you're assumed to know.)

Remember that 'Grammar' in dialect became 'Grimoire' or book of magic spells. If you were literate, you were a witch. Burn the grammarians!
 
Some items to ponder.

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I haven't died yet and see no evidence to suggest that I will. If I do it certainly will be a first for me.

Dickens- I started with "Great Expectations" and finished with "Hard Times".
 
Tio,
The more I read of this thread [and your comments about the translation], I came to realise the skills of the translator who does simultaneous translations for, say, a diplomat.
 
RubenR said:
Not entirely sure if this is correct, but ...

ab5589f7477954f27afb3958d6b3c3a4.jpg
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I encountered this when visiting Berkeley Castle in England. The name was being given a strange pronunciation to my ear (BARK-lee?), and I mentioned that to the guide. We have Berkeleys in Virginia, dating from when the someone from this castle in England came over as a governor of Virginia in the colonial period and the family stayed and became FFV (first families of Virginia--the families that made up the Virginia aristocracy). The guide said that the original pronunciation of the family's name went to Virginia with it and the pronunciation migrated to a new version in England.
 
RubenR said:
Not entirely sure if this is correct, but ...

ab5589f7477954f27afb3958d6b3c3a4.jpg
Click to expand...

Similar story with spelling, which is a bit easier to track than accents. Many of the differences between US and UK spellings are cases where UK spellings changed and US didn't, e.g. "colour"/"color".

My partner was good friends with a Greek-Australian lady. The emigré culture was very conservative - if the daughters wanted to wear short skirts/listen to rock music/etc. their parents would tell them "That's not the way we do it in Greece!"

Eventually she went back to Greece and discovered that all the girls there were wearing short skirts, listening to rock, etc. etc. The parents who'd left Greece in the 1940s-1950s were trying to adhere to how things had been back then, whereas the ones who stayed had moved on. I wonder if there was a similar effect happening with US English.
 
KeithD said:
I encountered this when visiting Berkeley Castle in England. The name was being given a strange pronunciation to my ear (BARK-lee?),
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Yes, BARK-lee - that would be the only way I would ever read Berkeley Castle. Berkeley College, on the other hand, is American (I believe), and I'd read it Berk-lee (and probably be wrong). Here in Oz, we don't have castles, so the former would never happen; the latter would become Barkers College, mate, where Jonno and Davo went, on the old man's money.

Did you encounter Cholmondley Featheringstonehaugh? (Chum-lee farn-shaw)?
 
electricblue66 said:
Yes, BARK-lee - that would be the only way I would ever read Berkeley Castle. Berkeley College, on the other hand, is American (I believe), and I'd read it Berk-lee (and probably be wrong). Here in Oz, we don't have castles, so the former would never happen; the latter would become Barkers College, mate, where Jonno and Davo went, on the old man's money.

Did you encounter Cholmondley Featheringstonehaugh? (Chum-lee farn-shaw)?
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The point is that it was BERK-ley even in England when part of the family left. In the new environment, they retained the original pronunciation.
 
KeithD said:
The point is that it was BERK-ley even in England when part of the family left. In the new environment, they retained the original pronunciation.
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A similar thing happened with Spanish in the New Mexico. Northern New Mexico was settled by the Spanish around 1600 (and resettled about 90 years later), then spent much of its history in isolation. As a result, the locals continued to speak in an accent and idiom typical of 17th-century Spain, while the Spanish language elsewhere moved on. Even now the 17th century idioms are identifiable in outlying communities.
 
NotWise said:
A similar thing happened with Spanish in the New Mexico. Northern New Mexico was settled by the Spanish around 1600 (and resettled about 90 years later), then spent much of its history in isolation. As a result, the locals continued to speak in an accent and idiom typical of 17th-century Spain, while the Spanish language elsewhere moved on. Even now the 17th century idioms are identifiable in outlying communities.
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Just remembered another example: modern Icelandic is pretty much the same as 11th-century Norse, with some new words for things that didn't exist back then.
 
Bramblethorn said:
Just remembered another example: modern Icelandic is pretty much the same as 11th-century Norse, with some new words for things that didn't exist back then.
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I've always found it odd that when listening to Native American speakers -- even in formal settings like Tribal Councils -- I'd hear English words sprinkled into their language. It seems like they adapted their language to new things introduced by the Spanish. Since then, the advances of technology have made it expedient to simply adopt the English words for things like "television" rather than creating new words within their own language to describe the technology.
 
NotWise said:
I've always found it odd that when listening to Native American speakers -- even in formal settings like Tribal Councils -- I'd hear English words sprinkled into their language. It seems like they adapted their language to new things introduced by the Spanish. Since then, the advances of technology have made it expedient to simply adopt the English words for things like "television" rather than creating new words within their own language to describe the technology.
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It goes both ways. English borrowed Native American words for a lot of American plants and animals (raccoon, moose, avocado, hickory, chipmunk, ...) and also others like "caucus", "tomahawk", "anorak", "barbecue", "hurricane", and "hammock".
 
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