Doormat- a byproduct of approach?

yukonnights said:

lillianaZ,

That was lovely...and sad. No words can accomplish the healing you are working on, and yet it is so often all we have to offer. So I do offer mine; Your mind is sound and you know what to do. I hope you can push away the fears that say; You're trapped...you'll never be free. I believe that love is stronger that anything that we face in life...it's love for yourself and even the love of the fact that love exists. Despair would extinguish the hope love brings, if it could. But if I choose to believe in love, it grows and becomes a part of myself...and one day I find that I am happy, filled with an inner joy.

But one need not feel obligated to share that with someone who is determined to remain mired in darkness. One can only do so much to help another person, then they have to suffer on their own. Love can hope for them, but every person has to make their own choices on the way they will walk through this life.

I hope you can forgive, on a higher plane. Not in the sense of pardoning or acceptance, but simply out of the realization that person is damaged...perhaps beyond your help. Love is very often the thing that heals me, not the one I sympathize with...that is up to them. ~

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Primalex said:

Yes - how can a human dare to be a human.

(In reality, we are not talking about a dominant here, but about a delusional take on male perfectionism. Nobody bats an eye when a female dominant gets annoyed with her male sub.)

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I'm going to have to agree to disagree. I believe that when a person of any gender takes it upon them self to announce to the world that they are a Dominant, it is incumbent on them to inform themselves and gain the knowledge required to perform in that capacity. Probably 'annoyed' was a word that implied a mild symptom. But in the context of the whole, it was a word used to describe discomfort in regard to the direction things were going.

I stand by what I said. Any person who takes it upon them self to toy and tinker with the emotions of another should not allow their own personal needs to move them to an expression of annoyance or worse. Such emotions in the Dom should be the first signal to himself to reset his own emotions...not indulge them.

Granted, this is a high standard. But that doesn't mean it is a false standard. Will it be headed, of course not...should it be headed, each can make their own judgement.

For me: Do no harm to another is comforting and fulfilling...but I've been told that I'm weird

yukonnights said:

lillianaZ,

That was lovely...and sad.
I hope you can push away the fears that say; You're trapped...you'll never be free....it's love for yourself and even the love of the fact that love exists.
One can only do so much to help another person, then they have to suffer on their own. Love can hope for them, but every person has to make their own choices on the way they will walk through this life.

I hope you can forgive, on a higher plane. Not in the sense of pardoning or acceptance, but simply out of the realization that person is damaged...perhaps beyond your help. Love is very often the thing that heals me, not the one I sympathize with...that is up to them. ~

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Thank you! I'm doing my best.

Farawyn said:

<snip>

I was my ex hub’s doormat for years. He wiped his feet on me and left me on the stoop until the next time. I allowed it. For years. If he was not happy, I was not happy. If he was angry, I assumed it was at me. Wipe your feet on me. Do it again, I’m right here. Oh, you don’t want to talk to me? Okay. I’ll just stay here until you need to wipe the shit off your boots again.

Sexually, if and when we did have sex, we were not D/s. So, none of the dynamic crossed over. Like a good doormat, I waited for his moods.

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So this is the stereotypical definition of doormat. Someone with no voice, too nice, don't make waves at the risk of losing your self worth. All kinds of awful, negative, icky feelings come from this word. You're spineless. Not worthy. Throw-away.

elli1point1 wrote:

I think making one's happiness and self-worth depend on other people, particularly on just one individual, is unhealthy and dangerous – both in D/s and vanilla relationships.

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Essentially in response to Angedesoleil's post:

When I'm in a committed D/s relationship I tend to make my PYL the center of my world. My Sir and I have discussed that he basically becomes my rubric, my measure of success, happiness, and self worth. I put his needs and desires at the forefront. I do so not completely altruistically, this pleases me. It makes my world *awesome*. When I know I've done *super hard thing* but I succeeded and it pleased him I'm in heaven. Cue angels singing.

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This is a tough thing to reconcile. We're taught we need to be self-sufficient. If we don't love ourselves first, then no one will love us. I'm smart enough, I'm good enough!! Wrapping self-worth so totally in one person's opinion of us is scary. It seems like a lot of work and pressure on the PYL as well. It works for Angedesoleil, so this isn't a knock on her relationship. She said she's thought this aspect of her D/s relationship through.

For me, this isn't what doormat is about. It isn't making someone the center of my world. It isn't losing me. It isn't saying I have no value unless he deems me worthy. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't think I'm amazing (which is not speaking to Angedesoleil's post as much as it is to Farawyn's).

BensSweetSubmissive wrote:

That said, I can sort of see the appeal of those that choose to be a doormat in a D/s situation. In a sexual context, I wouldn't mind being used as, or feeling like, a doormat. Then again, I would view it more as "serving" or "pleasing" my Master. Which, in turn, would make me happy. But for the "relationship" part of it, no...I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to be taken for granted, taken advantage of, or overlooked because I'm too compliant.

This probably sounds like I'm bashing doormats. I'm not. Part of my problem is that I have trouble "not being a doormat" in everyday life. Because of my submissive nature, I tend to be too nice. Or too willing to help others. <snipped a bit>

So, this doormat thing can be tricky. Knowing how to prevent being taken advantage of, and embracing it when it's an intentional characteristic.

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I just wanted to make a point about the distinction we make between our D/s "sex" life and our day to day life. I'm not picking on you BSS, you were just the one to bring it up. It's ok to be a doormat - to be in service or to please the Dominant in a sexual situation. But not in day to day because... why? You are taken for granted? Your submissive nature makes you a nice person, willing to help others, go the extra mile. Your friends, family look to you for help. What amazing qualities these are.

You hit the nail on the head, BSS, when you said it's knowing when to set a boundary. It's knowing that "doormat" is really just being nice, thoughtful, putting people's needs ahead of yours because it brings you a sense of happy. It's intentional.

That being said, we're not talking about regular 'ole relationships here. We're talking about D/s. M/s. PYL/pyl.

As submissives, we inherently have some desire to give up control. To allow the Dominant to make choices. Thus, taking away our choices. It might just be in the bedroom. It might be 24/7. It's probably someplace in between. Online, real life, whatever.

We've (hopefully) chosen a partner we trust. We've discussed limits, likes, dislikes. As a submissive, I am with a partner who motivates me to serve. Not just on the stuff I like to do. Submission isn't forcing me to do all those "bad" things I get so wet over. Most of the time, it's not even about sex. It's about service. Submission is (for me) putting his happiness ahead of mine. It's being compliant because that's what he desires. Because it's the dynamic of the relationship I've decided (I'VE DECIDED) to be in.

In my brain, doormat is this, from Farawyn :

I want to be the one, THE ONE, to be there for him, and so does he.

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How does that play out in a relationship? How are you there for him?

You just are. You're loyal, honest, you say yes more than no. You make his life better. Because he does that for you.

Being in a relationship where I see myself as having doormat qualities isn't always easy. To be compliant, obedient, to remember I've chosen to be in a relationship where he is the decision maker, he is in control takes a lot of will. I like to think of myself as a pretty strong chick.

In my experience, 99.9% of the time, I've been in relationships where the Dominant isn't going to ask anything insane because we've discussed it. Like people in relationships do. So it's not like every single day I'm bending over to accommodate some crazy whim. But every single day, I did try to be his useful submissive.

I don't outright think every single day, Hey! I'm a doormat! Welcome! It's just one of those things I think about every so often. Doormat isn't boring. It's not about feeling walked on or being taken for granted. None of that stuff associated with the cliche doormat definition.

Is "doormat" just being a nice, thoughtful person, according to me? A little bit. It's also providing my Dominant with a safe space to be whatever we decided together. Daddy, Master, Sir, Owner or just himself.

Thinking of myself as a doormat gives him a place to feel loved, respected, adored without being feisty and challenging and making him jump through my hoops. Doormat is being quiet. Listening. Not making him pick up the pieces of my mess all the damn time. It's being the one.

yukonnights said:

I'm going to have to agree to disagree. I believe that when a person of any gender takes it upon them self to announce to the world that they are a Dominant, it is incumbent on them to inform themselves and gain the knowledge required to perform in that capacity. Probably 'annoyed' was a word that implied a mild symptom. But in the context of the whole, it was a word used to describe discomfort in regard to the direction things were going.

I stand by what I said. Any person who takes it upon them self to toy and tinker with the emotions of another should not allow their own personal needs to move them to an expression of annoyance or worse. Such emotions in the Dom should be the first signal to himself to reset his own emotions...not indulge them.

Granted, this is a high standard. But that doesn't mean it is a false standard. Will it be headed, of course not...should it be headed, each can make their own judgement.

For me: Do no harm to another is comforting and fulfilling...but I've been told that I'm weird

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Agree.
It’s not an unachievable goal.
It IS a high standard. But not impossible.

My relationship is testament to that.

lillianaZ said:

Okay, well, I’ve been kicking this around in the back of my mind for the past several hours and it’s really hard to explain my thoughts but I’ll give it a try anyway. My happiness and self-worth doesn’t depend on what anyone thinks but I am happier when the people around me are satisfied and happy.
I don’t identify with any negative doormat tendencies. I guess, what I mean is that I’ve become pretty good at drawing lines and setting boundaries. I know where my lines are and what ones simply can’t be crossed.

lilli

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lillianaZ said:

Thank you! Yes, all of this. Pretty much everything you wrote! I'm doing my best. I shove those fears away every morning. I'm getting better by the day.

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lilli - This was lovely. Thanks for sharing so much of your history. You're a strong chick! A strong doormat.

lillianaZ said:

Thank you! Yes, all of this. Pretty much everything you wrote! I'm doing my best. I shove those fears away every morning. I'm getting better by the day.

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If you knew how much this means to me...I fear you would laugh with me at my own fear as my finger wavered over the send button. In truth, I will sleep better tonight because you took the time to share this. When you shove away those fears each morning, take a moment to find at least one beautiful thing to put in the place where they were evicted...I hope love redecorates every room where fear once dwelt.

For those of you who think of doormat as service or loving, how does degradation play into that, if that is a kink for you?

Cookie, Thank you for taking the time to pull so many thoughts together and help bring focus on the many tendrils of this complicated dynamic. That you speak from experience lends a lot of weight to the points you brought up.

I was thinking; wonder where CC is...and then you were there!

(I have to confess though, it also cause me some confusion since I've been practicing my mind control skills, and making people do things with my thoughts...but, probably it's just coincidental since this is the first time anything remotely indicating progress has happened...yeah, probably...never mind )

Farawyn said:

For those of you who think of doormat as service or loving, how does degradation play into that, if that is a kink for you?

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Degradation is a big thing for me. But it has to be with someone I really trust. To allow someone to spit on me or put his boot on my neck takes a ton of trust.

It's like I want to face those demons in my head that tell me I'm not worthy. If I can (could?) do it safely with him, wrap it all up in being wet and rewarded with his cock, it makes it that much better.

During times of more extreme degradation - say, more than being slapped or called names - I get really un-doormatty. I challenge, I scream, I say fuck no, you can't do that to me or make me, I wrestle away. That comes from a primal place. He wrestles me back in to a safe place but first, he makes me face whatever it is he's asking me to do.

Not sure if that makes sense?

cookiecat said:

Degradation is a big thing for me. But it has to be with someone I really trust. To allow someone to spit on me or put his boot on my neck takes a ton of trust.

It's like I want to face those demons in my head that tell me I'm not worthy. If I can (could?) do it safely with him, wrap it all up in being wet and rewarded with his cock, it makes it that much better.

During times of more extreme degradation - say, more than being slapped or called names - I get really un-doormatty. I challenge, I scream, I say fuck no, you can't do that to me or make me, I wrestle away. That comes from a primal place. He wrestles me back in to a safe place but first, he makes me face whatever it is he's asking me to do.

Not sure if that makes sense?

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I don’t fight that.
Much. Maybe a token struggle. Maybe.
That’s what I see as my doormat. That if he wanted to, he could wipe his shitty feet on me.
I’m trusting him not to.

Farawyn said:

I don’t fight that.
Much. Maybe a token struggle. Maybe.
That’s what I see as my doormat. That if he wanted to, he could wipe his shitty feet on me.
I’m trusting him not to.

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That's big. I can totally see that. It's huge trust on your part. Both of you.

I think my fight comes more from what he's making me face as opposed to what he's actually doing.

cookiecat said:

That's big. I can totally see that. It's huge trust on your part. Both of you.

I think my fight comes more from what he's making me face as opposed to what he's actually doing.

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Yes. Which is what I thought I would have more of a problem with. But my shit comes out in different ways.
Walls.

Break 'em down!

For some reason, being degraded creates a vulnerable place. Takes a brick out of the wall.

Stag of Oberon said:

like the aforementioned sidepocket?

*shudder*

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Ahahhaaaaa!!!

I fucking love you.

This has been an interesting read!

I guess you could say I'm in many ways "the bad kind of doormat" people warn people about. In general I roll over very easily, I'm very bad at sticking to my limits or enforcing them and my need to please is strong. So much of my self-worth comes from being useful to others.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be an acknowledged D/s dynamic where these things happen - it can be with basically anybody. This has lead to tricky friendships sometimes and I have learned to be a little more guarded and reserved around people that give me that inexplicable vibe. Another strategy I employ in those situations is simply being open and upfront about it, at least if I know the other person is into D/s as well.

It can be a very scary feeling for me to realize that yep, I really would go to crazy lengths to give this person what they want, sexually or otherwise. Especially if it's someone I don't know that well or have never met before.

I also want and need the submission to get tough for me at times, and I'm not talking about only explicitly sexual submission here. I guess this also ties into being a doormat. I don't want everything always to be enjoyable for me, so I think that's one reason why I say yes even if my head and body are screaming no.

Beyond the BDSM sphere, I'm also so bad at standing up for myself and regularly let people walk all over me, but I'm very good at standing up for other people. But the thing is, I don't really mind people walking all over me. I know this is something that you're not supposed to let happen let alone admit that you let it happen, but I'm pretty okay with it.

........

seela said:

This has been an interesting read!

I guess you could say I'm in many ways "the bad kind of doormat" people warn people about. In general I roll over very easily, I'm very bad at sticking to my limits or enforcing them and my need to please is strong. So much of my self-worth comes from being useful to others.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be an acknowledged D/s dynamic where these things happen - it can be with basically anybody. This has lead to tricky friendships sometimes and I have learned to be a little more guarded and reserved around people that give me that inexplicable vibe. Another strategy I employ in those situations is simply being open and upfront about it, at least if I know the other person is into D/s as well.

It can be a very scary feeling for me to realize that yep, I really would go to crazy lengths to give this person what they want, sexually or otherwise. Especially if it's someone I don't know that well or have never met before.

I also want and need the submission to get tough for me at times, and I'm not talking about only explicitly sexual submission here. I guess this also ties into being a doormat. I don't want everything always to be enjoyable for me, so I think that's one reason why I say yes even if my head and body are screaming no.

Beyond the BDSM sphere, I'm also so bad at standing up for myself and regularly let people walk all over me, but I'm very good at standing up for other people. But the thing is, I don't really mind people walking all over me. I know this is something that you're not supposed to let happen let alone admit that you let it happen, but I'm pretty okay with it.

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This speaks to me the most. Outside of the standing up for me part, still, I tend to hold on to bad relationships, sexual or otherwise, way longer than I should.
I call it “loyalty” to make it palatable, but I think there’s more to it than that.

Farawyn said:

This speaks to me the most. Outside of the standing up for me part, still, I tend to hold on to bad relationships, sexual or otherwise, way longer than I should.
I call it “loyalty” to make it palatable, but I think there’s more to it than that.

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Is it because if you let go of someone, even if toxic tyo you, that somehow, you've failed?

cookiecat said:

Is it because if you let go of someone, even if toxic tyo you, that somehow, you've failed?

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Absolutely.

yukonnights said:

I believe that when a person of any gender takes it upon them self to announce to the world that they are a Dominant, it is incumbent on them to inform themselves and gain the knowledge required to perform in that capacity.

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And what about those who announce to the world that they are submissive?

Granted, this is a high standard.

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Yes and a very popular one with the Tumblr and story-writing crowd. It's just so damn comfortable to advocate perfectionism when nobody else holds you to what you preach.

For me: Do no harm to another is comforting and fulfilling...but I've been told that I'm weird

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No, naive. Often enough you don't even know whether doing something or not doing something causes more harm. It takes time to learn how another human ticks and it's a bumpy road. Just because you are "submissive" and found someone who is "dominant", does not suddenly mean your relationship can ward off automagically negative emotions or experiences. Already your notion that a submissive could not affect the dominant in a negative way is ridiculous.

You can have your point of view, but for me it's as cheesy as "real men do X".

Primalex said:

And what about those who announce to the world that they are submissive?



Yes and a very popular one with the Tumblr and story-writing crowd. It's just so damn comfortable to advocate perfectionism when nobody else holds you to what you preach.



No, naive. Often enough you don't even know whether doing something or not doing something causes more harm. It takes time to learn how another human ticks and it's a bumpy road. Just because you are "submissive" and found someone who is "dominant", does not suddenly mean your relationship can ward off automagically negative emotions or experiences. Already your notion that a submissive could not affect the dominant in a negative way is ridiculous.

You can have your point of view, but for me it's as cheesy as "real men do X".

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I actually got into a big discussion with Necro last night and he is spot on with you.
I was responding on a very personal level, not across the spectrum, and I clearly see and agree with what you are saying.
No one is a mind reader. Or perfect. We are all human and allowed flaws and mistakes.
We (me) should strive to be the best we can most of the time, but that’s true in any relationship. Relationships are also about who we can be our crap selves with some days, cause, bad days happen.

Farawyn said:

This.
Thank you.
That’s what I feel about a doormat, as a feminist and a sub.

I was my ex hub’s doormat for years. He wiped his feet on me and left me on the stoop until the next time. I allowed it. For years. If he was not happy, I was not happy. If he was angry, I assumed it was at me. Wipe your feet on me. Do it again, I’m right here. Oh, you don’t want to talk to me? Okay. I’ll just stay here until you need to wipe the shit off your boots again.

Sexually, if and when we did have sex, we were not D/s. So, none of the dynamic crossed over. Like a good doormat, I waited for his moods.

The thing now... I have someone who hears me. Who wants my moods. Who works hard for me every day. He is my love, but also a very patient Dom, and I know he thinks I’m a pretty damn good sub. Perfect for me, even if we argue.

I want to be the one, THE ONE, to be there for him, and so does he. I’m a nurturer... mom, nurse, daughter...so we have that part covered.
My thing, which hasn’t been a problem yet, is that I like degradation. Name calling. Slapping. A little mocking. Being pushed and thrown around. It’s part of our relationship.

I don’t know how I reconcile all that with my past, when I was actually emotionally and verbally abused. (That took me a long time to say.)
But I do.
Maybe because I know he won’t wipe his shitty boots on me (symbolically or real) without some serious talk first.

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Farawyn I can so relate! I wasn't in D/s relationship but his need overrode mine all the time, if I tryed to talk about our lack of sex he shut me down by making me the bad guy, guilt me into feeling he sould be enough for me or who else would work so hard for the family.

So no more doormat, no more feeling less then....Sorry if this got off topic!

bluekitty69 said:

Farawyn I can so relate! I wasn't in D/s relationship but his need overrode mine all the time, if I tryed to talk about our lack of sex he shut me down by making me the bad guy, guilt me into feeling he sould be enough for me or who else would work so hard for the family.

So no more doormat, no more feeling less then....Sorry if this got off topic!

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Nope. It’s not off topic.

How do these feelings parallel what you are feeling now for a relationship?