Snippettsville Map Discussion

Re: WOW! Everybody Has Been Busy.

Quasimodem said:

Everyone is way ahead of me, but having had a look at the original maps, I have two comments:

Radio Station: Where a radio station IS, is on the air. Most small radio stations don't have their own building. They’re usually upstairs, above some other business. In the case of the city where I now live, the radio station was above a clothing store, then a bank, and now the top floor of the local television station. The transmitter is on a high ridge above town. When it was bought by the company which owned the television station, moved the radio transmitter to the highest point in the county (where the TV transited already was) and one thousand feet up the television antennae.

Originally, studio and transmitter were connected by land lines, these days, by microwave relay.

What the map shows is not wrong, I would merely put something else on the ground floor.


Green Lake: In my opinion, the lake is much too regular. I would rather see it as a small central area connecting a surrounding group of bays, coves, and inlets where rivers and creeks enter.

We already 'know' - if one story is used - that one area has a hiking trail on a high bluff overlooking the lake.

There should be some islands, rocky points, and dangerous shallows, as well as at least one area with a fairly accessible beach. My reason for suggesting this, is so that one should not be able to see where someone is, on the lake, with a single scan of their binoculars.

This is not a problem of cartography, rather it is a suggestion arising out of literary considerations.

Although WSO is never going to let it in as an official story, as it possesses not a scintilla of eroticism, check out "The Legendary Boater" as an example of the effects a large, irregular-shaped, island and rocky point strewn, lake with several inlets and bays can afford the writer.

Think of the lovers who miss their rendezvous. Think of the boaters who come aground, or worse, sink, and end up keeping each other warm. This is why I want Green Lake to be both irregular and just a bit dangerous for the novice boater.

That is the kind of body I would wish Green Lake to become.

As a movie image, "On Golden Pond" is a popular vision of what Green Lake should be like, seen from the cottagers' point of view.

Click to expand...

oops sorry i didn't see your posting before having to relogin yet again to post mine, Quasi.

You make excellent points. Your story The Legendary Boater gives a wonderful visual of the aspects you mention.

(As for whether that story will make it to the formal Submission point, that will come under discussion in the soon to be opened and moved threads in the SDC.)

Re: Map Discussion Thread Handover.

wildsweetone said:

This is a public handover of the Map Discussion Thread to Alex De Kok.

Hey, I just know what looks nice! Alex has much more experience with mapping than I, so you're in great hands.

One important point. There is a deadline here please.

Midnight Monday, GMT time.

(I apologise if I've sent you scurrying to work out the time zone thing. I can't work it out for everyone myself.)


edited to add the day cos i forgot lol - thanks Alex!

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Wildsweetone is too kind, but we have agreed that so far as the maps are concerned, the buck stops with me. All ideas and contributions are welcome but as Snippettsville and Green Lake are products essentially of my fevered imagination I'm claiming final authority. Three maps will be produced - overall layout, Snippettsville proper and Green Lake and its environs. Sympathy and encouragement welcomed.

Quasimodem, your comments about Green Lake are frighteningly close to my own thoughts!

Alex

BlackSnake said:

I say that the upload file size is about 100KB, but there doesn't seem to be a limit on the W/H. Anyone know of any other limitations?

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The limits for attachments are 800 x 600 x 102400 bytes. Those are each upper limits for the respective dimensions.

i.e. 480x640 is "too big" because it's over 600 pixels tall, but the same picture rotated 90 degrees is well within the limits.

I sure like the look of Dexter - apart from the Railroad and the lake being too close - it should be about 5 miles away, it looks like "Alex's" Snippetsville.

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There is another small down, Pleasant Hill that's about five miles down the road from Dexter that's just a bit larger. It's where the high school for that area is located and it has a grocery store, but otherwise it's pretty much the same as Dexter in size and configuration.

Are, we saying that the interstate is too close to be on the map?[/qoute]

The Interstate is "just off the map" -- probably ten to twenty miles away in either direction along a "main road" past town; Possibly also a road not shown on the maps, but just off the edge.

Snippetsville doesn't strike me as the kind of town that is actually ON a main road, but right next to it -- in other words, the main street of town is the Highway, but a road that connects to the highway.

Click to expand...

Perhaps the Snippetsville people could get some free webspace--like geocities or angelfire of xoom or whatever--and upload the larger graphics there and put in a link directly to the graphic.

That way you can get larger graphics put up for everyone's convenience.

KillerMuffin said:

That way you can get larger graphics put up for everyone's convenience.

Click to expand...

Good idea KM, but I think the problem is more the scale than the size of the images. I'm not sure that the people will want to take the time to downlod the 1463 x 1226 x 5MByte original size of the images my map program produces. They're wonderfully detailed and clear, but they're intended for printing, not viewing.

I think that the three maps Alex wants should be four maps instead.

I found another small town that fits Alex's image of the relationship of the town and Green Lake a bit closer -- Chemult, OR and Miller Lake.

Chemult is another of the small towns in Oregon that started as housing for a Railroad section office and section crew that added a Sawmill for a time because ot the access to rail transport. (BTW, Alex, Most small towns in America have at least the remains of a railroad in town -- at least those with past involving lumber or coal do.)

This first map shows the relationship between Chemult and Miller Lake. The lake is on the wrong side of town and eight miles away instead of five, but flipping the image and relabeling the scale would make it close to Snippetsville and Green Lake.

Weird Harold said:

Good idea KM, but I think the problem is more the scale than the size of the images. ...

I think that the three maps Alex wants should be four maps instead.

...

This first map shows the relationship between Chemult and Miller Lake. The lake is on the wrong side of town and eight miles away instead of five, but flipping the image and relabeling the scale would make it close to Snippetsville and Green Lake.

Click to expand...

The problem with a map ten miles across that shows both lake and town is that you can't show the level of detail that is needed to know how long it takes to walk from the high-school to Hannah's or whether you have a line of sight from the Old Mill to the City Park.

For that, you need a close-up view of just the town:

Weird Harold said:

For that, you need a close-up view of just the town:

Click to expand...

You also need a close-upof the lake to know where to go to get out of sight of the docks, beaches and cabins and figure out how long it might take to row across the lake or ski from end to end.

You also need to know the roads around the lake and where some rich summer-visitor might want to add a secluded love nest for orgies and other kinky activities.

PS, all of this could be done with one huge image that authors can zoom in irfanview, photo-shop or other image viewer/editor, but it would be unweildy and the keyword is HUGE in order to get the kind of detail some authors will want or need.

It's much simpler to use one large scale map for the general relationships and smaller scale maps for the details of each area. The large map should have a grid showing to help reference specific loctions that an author wants to "homestead" as a setting with more detail.

That would allow authors to map out a small section of Snippetsville to contribute to the settings database for mor details -- like the floor-plan of Hannah's or the layout of the Old Mill.

Like the characters, using Mapped Settings would require some co-ordination with the orignal author.

Weird Harold said:

You also need a close-upof the lake to know where to go to get out of sight of the docks, beaches and cabins and figure out how long it might take to row across the lake or ski from end to end.

You also need to know the roads around the lake and where some rich summer-visitor might want to add a secluded love nest for orgies and other kinky activities.

PS, all of this could be done with one huge image that authors can zoom in irfanview, photo-shop or other image viewer/editor, but it would be unweildy and the keyword is HUGE in order to get the kind of detail some authors will want or need.

It's much simpler to use one large scale map for the general relationships and smaller scale maps for the details of each area. The large map should have a grid showing to help reference specific loctions that an author wants to "homestead" as a setting with more detail.

That would allow authors to map out a small section of Snippetsville to contribute to the settings database for mor details -- like the floor-plan of Hannah's or the layout of the Old Mill.

Like the characters, using Mapped Settings would require some co-ordination with the orignal author.

Click to expand...

I would endorse Weird Harold's comments here, as his thinking is paralleling mine. The three maps I visualise are -

1: A map showing the relationship of Snippettsville to the Interstate, other main roads, and Green Lake, with an indication of the general terrain, any railroads, other settlements. WH's point about a grid for possible future 'homesteads' is well made and I intend to add such a grid.

2: A map showing details of Snippettsville, with those businesses and homes which have already been mentioned indicated.

3: A map showing details of Green Lake, with the areas already mentioned indicated, and enough bays and coves for future stories, hopefully.

If anyone thinks we need any other maps I'd be interested to see the reasoning.

Floor plans for individual businesses, dwellings etc are a possibility but sometimes the best image is the one in the reader's head.

Comments and ideas still welcome. WH, I'd like to thank you publicly for your input on this. The maps you have shown us have certainly given me ideas.

Alex

Weird Harold said:

The problem with a map ten miles across that shows both lake and town is that you can't show the level of detail that is needed to know how long it takes to walk from the high-school to Hannah's or whether you have a line of sight from the Old Mill to the City Park.

For that, you need a close-up view of just the town:

Click to expand...

We can always have a legend, colored dots or something.

Alex De Kok said:

1: A map showing the relationship of Snippettsville to the Interstate, other main roads, and Green Lake, ...

2: A map showing details of Snippettsville, with those businesses and homes which have already been mentioned indicated.

3: A map showing details of Green Lake, with the areas already mentioned indicated, and enough bays and coves for future stories, hopefully.

Click to expand...

The three views of Chemult and Miller lake are a good example of how even with a fairly close scale, it's difficult to map lake to show all of the inlets, bays, and trees that hang out over the water to provide private hiding places.

While the map of Miller Lake shows it as having a fairly regular shoreline, it actual fact, it's difficult to find a spot on that shoreline where you can see more than a hundred yards along the shore or see the whole lake because of the vegetation and terrain features that are too small to show on a map of the entire lake -- even if you generate the map from the latest satellite mapping info.

If anyone thinks we need any other maps I'd be interested to see the reasoning.

Floor plans for individual businesses, dwellings etc are a possibility but sometimes the best image is the one in the reader's head.

Click to expand...

"Homestead maps" that cover a hundred yard (or meter) square would be useful to other authors who wish to use that setting. While you're correct hat the best image is the one the reader imagines, it's conflict with other depictions of a location that make the maps useful -- to keep from confusing the imgae the reader imagines from one vignette to the next.

Floor-plans and detail maps aren't for inclusion in the stories per se, but to insure that different authors who use the settings have a detailed image of the original author's setting to describe for the readers.

It's a bit like creating a "still life arrangement" for an art class to draw -- every drawing will be different, but the number of purported bananas, oranges, and apples should all be the same in each drawing.

For a "shared universe" like Snippetsville, each setting and character should have more background detail for other authors to build on than can be plausibly included in a 600 word vignette. Anything that can help other authors remain true to the creators vision should be allowed inthe character and settings database -- pictures, Maps, floor-plans, measurements, furnishings, brand names of appliances (Is the Juke-box in Hannah's Diner a Wurlitzer or Jukebox (tm) or one of the other competing brands?) upholstery colors, and every other little detail of the authors' original visions of the settings they create.

Comments and ideas still welcome. WH, I'd like to thank you publicly for your input on this. The maps you have shown us have certainly given me ideas.

Click to expand...

If any of the maps I've posted are close to the topography of your original vision, then PhotoShop or a similar program should be able to cut paste and draw them into a realistic representation of your vision.

If someone has a current version of the terrain building utility for MS Flight Simulator, that can build realistic maps from scratch and export them in the much same way Delorme's Topo USA 3.0 exports the maps I've been posting. (I have the utility for MS Flight Sim 5.0, but it doesn't like Win 98's DOS mode very much.)

It would take longer than WSO's Monday deadline to build the terrain map with the Terrain Builder, but it could replace the hand-drawn maps later.

BlackSnake said:

Weird Harold said:

The problem with a map ten miles across that shows both lake and town is that you can't show the level of detail that is needed to know how long it takes to walk from the high-school to Hannah's or whether you have a line of sight from the Old Mill to the City Park.

For that, you need a close-up view of just the town:

Click to expand...

We can always have a legend, colored dots or something.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

A Legend Colored dots -- or better, colored numbers -- on the main map to index the smaller detail maps would almost be a requirement, because map co-ordinates alone for "homesteads" could run into problems withthe "cartography challenged" authors trying to claim the same spot on the map.

However, colored dots don't provide any detail other than relatitive positions -- in some cases that might be enough information, but in most cases it is going to result in "flickering" if other authors use the same spot -- trees, rocks, and streams will come and go as each author pictures a different "Idyllic Spot for a Romantic Tryst."

Weird Harold said:

The three views of Chemult and Miller lake are a good example of how even with a fairly close scale, it's difficult to map lake to show all of the inlets, bays, and trees that hang out over the water to provide private hiding places.

While the map of Miller Lake shows it as having a fairly regular shoreline, it actual fact, it's difficult to find a spot on that shoreline where you can see more than a hundred yards along the shore or see the whole lake because of the vegetation and terrain features that are too small to show on a map of the entire lake -- even if you generate the map from the latest satellite mapping info.


Point taken. I do have a couple of ideas which will help in this area although as you say it will be near impossible to show all of the bays, terrain and vegetation on an image small enough to download quickly.

"Homestead maps" that cover a hundred yard (or meter) square would be useful to other authors who wish to use that setting. While you're correct hat the best image is the one the reader imagines, it's conflict with other depictions of a location that make the maps useful -- to keep from confusing the imgae the reader imagines from one vignette to the next.

Floor-plans and detail maps aren't for inclusion in the stories per se, but to insure that different authors who use the settings have a detailed image of the original author's setting to describe for the readers.

It's a bit like creating a "still life arrangement" for an art class to draw -- every drawing will be different, but the number of purported bananas, oranges, and apples should all be the same in each drawing.

Excellent point. On reflection, if detail of this sort is needed the writers will be encouraged to provide it. I do want to try to provide as much location information as possible 'up front', so that our writers need only read, and write!

For a "shared universe" like Snippetsville, each setting and character should have more background detail for other authors to build on than can be plausibly included in a 600 word vignette. Anything that can help other authors remain true to the creators vision should be allowed inthe character and settings database -- pictures, Maps, floor-plans, measurements, furnishings, brand names of appliances (Is the Juke-box in Hannah's Diner a Wurlitzer or Jukebox (tm) or one of the other competing brands?) upholstery colors, and every other little detail of the authors' original visions of the settings they create.

Another telling point. I'll pass it on to my co-creator!


If any of the maps I've posted are close to the topography of your original vision, then PhotoShop or a similar program should be able to cut paste and draw them into a realistic representation of your vision.

If someone has a current version of the terrain building utility for MS Flight Simulator, that can build realistic maps from scratch and export them in the much same way Delorme's Topo USA 3.0 exports the maps I've been posting. (I have the utility for MS Flight Sim 5.0, but it doesn't like Win 98's DOS mode very much.)

It would take longer than WSO's Monday deadline to build the terrain map with the Terrain Builder, but it could replace the hand-drawn maps later.

Click to expand...

Something to think about. First, I need to get our universe drawn! The deadline has some flexibility but we thought it a good idea to have a cut-off point.

Harold, thanks again. I don't know how much we're paying you, but it's obviously not enough!

Alex

BlackSnake said:

We can always have a legend, colored dots or something.

Click to expand...

Originally posted by Weird Harold
I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

A Legend Colored dots -- or better, colored numbers -- on the main map to index the smaller detail maps would almost be a requirement, because map co-ordinates alone for "homesteads" could run into problems withthe "cartography challenged" authors trying to claim the same spot on the map.

However, colored dots don't provide any detail other than relatitive positions -- in some cases that might be enough information, but in most cases it is going to result in "flickering" if other authors use the same spot -- trees, rocks, and streams will come and go as each author pictures a different "Idyllic Spot for a Romantic Tryst."

Click to expand...

Some form of legend will indeed be incorporated, probably numbered locations. More when I actually have the outlines drawn. The 'flickering' had me laughing, thinking of a sort of science-fiction scenario, where several people/plots are trying to occupy the same piece of space-time continuum!

Alex

Alex De Kok said:

. . . The 'flickering' had me laughing, thinking of a sort of science-fiction scenario, where several people/plots are trying to occupy the same piece of space-time continuum!
Alex

Click to expand...

Don't laugh, before WSO informed me that I had rewritten part of Snip's History for "Ker-Snap!" we had a situation which could only have been handled by employing an alternate universe theory .

Alex De Kok said:

While the map of Miller Lake shows it as having a fairly regular shoreline, it actual fact, it's difficult to find a spot on that shoreline where you can see more than a hundred yards along the shore or see the whole lake because of the vegetation and terrain features that are too small to show on a map of the entire lake -- even if you generate the map from the latest satellite mapping info.

Point taken. I do have a couple of ideas which will help in this area although as you say it will be near impossible to show all of the bays, terrain and vegetation on an image small enough to download quickly.

Click to expand...

A question about Green Lake: Is Green lake a natural lake, or a reservoir?

Natural lakes tend to have fairly regular outlines on a map, Generally rough ovals or circles.

Reservoirs tend to have "fingers" -- bays and inlets that are big enough to show on a large scale map.

Miller Lake is a natural "High Mountain" lake and appears to be round and smooth so that everything on the lake would be visible from anywhere on the shore. That isn't true from the shore, although it's mostly true from a boat just offshore.

In practice, almost any lake is a private place as far as those on shore are concerned, but exposed to view from a boat at the center of the lake.

Anywhere a stream might flow into a lake will be a a small inlet that is "secluded" enough for an erotic 600 word vignette, so I wouldn't put too much effort into trying to map out places for settings unless there's some specific characteristic of the shoreline that you feel needs to be mapped out to attract authors.

Places like an area known as "The Cliffs" at Lake Mead, where there is a perennial problem with youngsters cracking their heads on the rocks trying to impress other youngsters with their cliff diving ability, are more a feature of artificial lakes than natural ones.

Green Lake probably does need an island or two and a couple of penninsulas to break up the line of sight a bit.

But they don't necessarily have to be big enough to show up on a map of the whole lake. As long as islands are limited to being small and close to shore (no more than 50 yards offshore or 100 yards square) and penninsulas and inlets are limited to not more than a hundred yards in extent, there should be no problem with "homesteading" lake-side settings to suit any author's imagination.

Some general rules for homesteading outdoor settings should be set up that outline the general vegetation types and how much modification of the main map is allowed.

Using Miller Lake as an example:

Miller Lake is a shallow, high mountain, lake fed by snow melt, so it's always very cold and most offshore islands can be waded out to.

There are many small islands along the shore, but none are more than 100 yards long or more than 50 yards from shore.

There are many small springs and streams that feed into the lake, creating small shallow inlets and coves of about 50-100 yards in extent. Some of the inlets are deep enough to moor a boat and/or swim in, but most are just narrow sand and gravel bars a few feet deep at most.

The banks of the lake are mostly gentle slopes, with only a few places where there are banks steep enough cause problems for hikers or vehicles. There is no place on the lake where it is possible to dive from the shore safely.

The lake is surrounded by a lodgepole pine forest with little undergrowth, although there are sections of marshy manzanita thickets along the shoreline. There are small clearings of many types along the shoreline where the soil is either too rocky or too sandy to support the dominant vegetation types. Often the clearings front on small beaches of course sand or gravel where sawgrass, beargrass, or or other similar hardy ground covers flourish.

Note Miller Lake, is not a very varied environment, and there are no spreading Oak or Weeping Willow trees in the area to provide hiding places -- Green Lake is probably in a more deciduous and varied ecosystem and the types of beaches, trees and ground cover are also more varied.

This same kind of general ecosystem information needs to be provided for the entire area, BTW -- what kinds of grasses are predominant, which areas are forested and which are grassland or scrub-brush. Are there abandoned orchards or farms where there are imported or artificail eco-systems?

These are all details that need to be on the maps in at least a general way, or in the settings database. Established outdoor settings will dictate the choices to some extent -- an Oak Grove already mentioned means that the general eco-system andclimate have to be capable of supporting Oak trees.

Snippett County

In "Rip Henderson" I made reference to his having served a sentence at the "Snippett County Honor Farm." I guess this means that there had to be a Snippett County.
MG

Re: Snippett County

MathGirl said:

In "Rip Henderson" I made reference to his having served a sentence at the "Snippett County Honor Farm." I guess this means that there had to be a Snippett County.
MG

Click to expand...

Any ideas on how big "Snippet County" is, and is Snippetsville the county seat?

In reference to the Maps, are you suggesting that the large scale map should be a map of Snippet County and show where the Honor Farm is?

Re: Re: Snippett County

Weird Harold said:

Any ideas on how big "Snippet County" is, and is Snippetsville the county seat?

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My guess would be that Snippett County is fairly large, although most of the area is under-developed.

While Snippettsville was the major community during its heyday as a lumber centre, the Conservation movement of the early 1900's arrested further cutting in the immediate vicinity.

Snippettsville remains the home of several companies involved in 'forest management' and of course, hosts The Annual Snippettsville Lumberjack Competition, each fall. Today, most of the county’s area is many decades into second growth forests.

In 1918, [ Fort Garth? ] became the County Seat - due to the country's entrance into WW1. Since then, that centre has grown to a half million people, one hundred times the size of The Greater Snippettsville - Green Lake Community.

At least, that's what I see in my crystal ball.

Re: Re: Snippett County

Weird Harold said:

In reference to the Maps, are you suggesting that the large scale map should be a map of Snippet County and show where the Honor Farm is?

Click to expand...

Dear Mr Harold,
No, I don't see any reason for that. I just remembered that I'd mentioned a Snippets County and that there was a jail/honor farm. There probably isn't any reason to make further reference to it.
MG

Re: Re: Re: Snippett County

Quasimodem said:

My guess would be that Snippett County is fairly large, although most of the area is under-developed.

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That would amost have to put Snippet County and Snippetsville west of the Mississippi, possibly West of the Rockies -- there are few large, underdeveloped counties East of the Mississippi. At least that's the impression I get from a road atlas -- I don't have any detail maps for areas I don't hunt.

While Snippettsville was the major community during its heyday as a lumber centre, the Conservation movement of the early 1900's arrested further cutting in the immediate vicinity.

Click to expand...

This doesn't ring true to a kid from "Lumber Town" like me. At least in the West, the conservation movement didn't have any real effect on the lumber industry until the 1960's when clear-cut logging on Forst Service land was finally outlawed. The Eastern Lumber industry had long since gone to almost excusively logging Private Tree Farms by the end of WWII because there simply wasn't enough public Forest-land to log profitably.

If the Mill closed down prior to WWII, it would NOT still be standing, even if it's derelict. (The Edward Hines mill in Westfir lasted less than 10 years before it burned down, and the area reburned just last summer because a pre-1950's lumber mill is a fire trap because all of the sawdust that covered everything.)

I don't know of any Old Mills in any of the samlllumber town scattered around Oregon that are still standing that haven't been converted to some other use -- like the Old Mill Mall in Springfield OR, where they've installed additional sprinkler systems, made numerous interior modifications and paved over the log-yard for a parking lot.

Snippettsville remains the home of several companies involved in 'forest management' and of course, hosts The Annual Snippettsville Lumberjack Competition, each fall. Today, most of the county’s area is many decades into second growth forests.

Click to expand...

Again, the time frame is wrong for an Eastern County covered in "Second Growth" forests.

First, "Second Growth" is usually reserved for forests under twenty-years old, although it technically applies to any area that has been previously logged. "Second Growth Forests are crowded thickets that are nearly impassible. Any forest that has grown untouched since WWI is long past the characteristic crowding of "Second Growth" forests.

Second, any forest that has stood since WWI isn't untouched unless it's in a National Park or Wilderness Area -- Especially if it's a private forest, which most of the Eastern Forests are. Even with the predominance of Private Tree Farms, public forests were being clear cut well into the 1950's all over the US.

In 1918, [ Fort Garth? ] became the County Seat - due to the country's entrance into WW1. Since then, that centre has grown to a half million people, one hundred times the size of The Greater Snippettsville - Green Lake Community.

Click to expand...

I doubt that Snippetsville was ever the county seat -- it's not big enough, there's no abandoned streets or Big Houses shown on the map (so far). I only know of one "Lumber Town" in the whole USA that grew beyond a few thousand mill workers -- Seattle, WA -- and it only managed it because it also became a major seaport from it's humble beginnings as a shipping point for Lumber.

Snippetsville doesn't have the traces of being a county seat that would remain for nearly 80 years -- especially the street layout of a larger role in theCountywould leave behind.

I propose that the name, Snippetsville is an homage to the orignal county seat of Snippet City -- possibly named after the founder, Albert Horatio Snippets.

Perhaps Snippetsville was founded by a great-grandson who was driven from Snippets City in disgrace over some (probably sexual) scandal. The family recouped it's fortune and sold out it's interest in the mill just before the Great Depression and died in penury after the Crash bcause they put the proceeds intot he stock market.

At least, that's what I see in my crystal ball.

Click to expand...

I think you need to polish that Crystal ball, son.

MG:
I just remembered that I'd mentioned a Snippets County and that there was a jail/honor farm. There probably isn't any reason to make further reference to it.

Click to expand...

Little things like the name of the county where Snippetsville resides is definitely something that needs to be in the"canon" for this universe. Likewise the Honor Farm's existance is something other authors need to be aware of -- somebody might want to start a crime wave and need a source for a rapist to ravage the sweet innocent citizen's of snippetsville.

The question of Law enforcement can be answered, in part, by the existance of the Snippets County Sheriff's Department who make regular patrols through town and answer to the regional 911 system.

That would make the previously mentioned Town Constable a mostly ceremonial and liason position on the Town Council -- more of an Assistant Mayor than a law enforcement officer. He'd be the person responsible for investigating minor complaints and co-ordinating with the Sheriff's department on major complaints and other law enforcement needs.

In reference to the maps, I don't think we need to show the whole County, just a ten-mile radias around Snippetsville -- a twenty mile square centered on Snippetsville. That should provide more than enough territory for whatever the authors want to come up with outside of town proper. A 0.2 mile grid for registering homesteads outside of the second two maps should be sufficient for the Regional Map.

The Second main map should show Snippetsville itself to scale -- with streets, buildings, parks, etc labeled. The City Map doesn't really need a grid except to place it withinthe 0.2 mile grid of the Regional Map.



The Third Main Map should show all of Green Lake and about a mile or two of the surrounding terrain. This map should have a closer grid than the 0.2 mile grid of the main map -- but the main grid should be a multiple of the main grid and aligned with it. (perhaps a .002 mile grid.

For the arithmetically challenged, 0.2 miles is 1056 feet, or 352 yards. 0.002 is 105 feet or 35.2 yards. That would allow for homestads on the regional map of 352 yard squares and homesteads of 35.2, 70.4 or 105.6 yards squares on the green lake map. Homesteads on the city map would be Street Addresses (specific buildings) or specific areas -- whoever wants to map out the Park first defines that setting. The Old Mill presents a special challenge because even after the mill site is mapped, there are still building interiors available to be mapped. (some of the Mill buildings will be two or three story buildings,so maybe each floor can be homesteaded separately?)

Hoo, boy, you've got me thinking now! The problem with developing all this from the wrong side of either the Atlantic or the Pacific (depending on whether it's me or Wildsweetone) is that we have to depend on local knowledge.

My original concept for Snippettsville was Eastern, probably Pennsylvania, where logging had mostly finished by the Second World War, as I understand it. I don't think that we need to necessarily make our mapped region actual lumber country, maybe just off the edge. The town originally grew up around the mill, yes, but that might well have been sited handily for access to onward transportation. We're introducing a railroad in the revised introduction, which provides an incentive. There is also mention of the dismantled logging railroad, which would have brought the timber to the mill for cutting.

I don't see the Snippettsville area as still being involved in actual lumber production, rather perhaps more agricultural, and nor do I see the mill as still being in existence.

Some very telling points are being made here and I am keeping an eye on them. I have little doubt that there will be questions before anything is finalised. Thank you all for taking the time. Both Wildsweetone and myself are greatly appreciative of the effort being expended to make our little universe "real".

Alex

Just dropping by quickly and took a quick look through people's posts.

Quasimodem said:

Don't laugh, before WSO informed me that I had rewritten part of Snip's History for "Ker-Snap!" we had a situation which could only have been handled by employing an alternate universe theory .

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QUASI DON'T YOU DARE

I refuse to try and construct maps into other dimensions or time / space.

Creating one draft Snippetsville required all my brain power lubricated with moderate dosages of imaginative alcohol

I am glad everyone is talking and thinking.

May I kick in one point Quasi said about the Radio Station sharing a building. No doubt this is due to commercial considerations. However this may not be so in Snippetsville, there may be a number of empty commercial properties.

Allow me to refresh the back story and what has been established so far.

Snippetsville is a town whose commercial activity is in decline, since the lumber mill closed there has only been the tourists and the Electronics factory - which is fighting a loosing battle against the big multi Nationals from Japan, ( and presumably Korea and China). Most of the population use the town as a dormitory and commute to the big city somewhere along the Interstate - maybe its location should be firmed up.

Alex De Kok said:

. . . I don't see the Snippettsville area as still being involved in actual lumber production, rather perhaps more agricultural, and nor do I see the mill as still being in existence. . . .
Alex

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The only involvement with the timber industry that I see as being still in existence in Snippettsville is The Annual Snippettsville Lumberjack Competition (Name Tentative) , each fall.

Not unlike the Calgary's Stampede, the city grew beyond its cowboy roots, the cattle industry changed from range to lot feeding, and that region developing as large a presence in the petrochemical industry as in the cattle industry.

The Stampede [like the proposed Lumberjack Competition] is a tourist attraction that is rooted in an event which grew out of the region's history.



While it is - for the writers - necessary to supply a surrounding region, a nearby big city (possibly county seat, or even state capital), a rival town (possibly with rival recreational facilities), and the main roads to go between these places (and the distance between these points). We need these to be able to share a common setting.

Alternately, we don’t need to make Snippettsville BECOME one particular place. If we merely intend to replicate a real place as Snippettsville, we might just as well forget the fictional town, and set our stories in the REAL place.

Sorry Jon, the story that required a Snippettsville in an alternate universe, was - under WSO's instruction - rewritten, and now exists only in an alternate universe where WSO didn't correct me. Only the Jon who exists in THAT universe has to worry about multiple universe map-making.

Alex De Kok said:

My original concept for Snippettsville was Eastern, probably Pennsylvania, where logging had mostly finished by the Second World War, as I understand it. I don't think that we need to necessarily make our mapped region actual lumber country, maybe just off the edge. The town originally grew up around the mill, yes, but that might well have been sited handily for access to onward transportation. We're introducing a railroad in the revised introduction, which provides an incentive. There is also mention of the dismantled logging railroad, which would have brought the timber to the mill for cutting.

I don't see the Snippettsville area as still being involved in actual lumber production, rather perhaps more agricultural, and nor do I see the mill as still being in existence.

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This is pretty much the reason I've taken such an interest in Snippetsville's map and history -- I grew up in a "Mill Town" that is much like Snippetsville's initial concept, although it is a Western Mill Town, and not Eastern, and there are some major differences in the history of Logging Towns in the East and the West.

Probably the biggest diffrence is the length of History to most Eastern Mill Towns -- There just aren't many Eastern small towns that grew up around a Sawmill and ONLY a Saw Mill. Many Eastern small towns have histories that begin in the 1600's and 1700's and have changed many times as industries rise and fall.

With the completion of the Trans-continental Railroad, much of the Lumber industry in the US moved West in the 1850's to supply the Mines of the Goldrush and the Silver Rush around Carson City Nevada as well as ship finished lumber back east by ship and rail. Hence Seattle's rise as both a "lumber town" and a major seaport. (There wasn't much except Lumber coming from Washington, unlike Oregon that had both the Lumber Industry, a fishing Industry and Agriculture to feed Portland's rise as a major Sea and River Port on the Columbia River.

I went into some detail about the history of Oakridge, detailing it's path from Railroad section housing and small farm community to a "Lumber Town" (Once "Tree Planting Capital of the World") and recent decline as the mills closed and salvation as a "Bedroom Community" and a tourist services stop -- essentially a "Gateway to Wilderness Recreation Areas."

Your observation about the proximity to transport as the reason for building a mill in Snippetsville is a good point -- Snippetsville Is on a river, which would have been the primary method of moving logs to the mill before WWI, and the primary source of power prior to the early 1800's, but the Old Mill isn't ON the river, so it has to be a WWII vintage mill or later that relied on Trucks to bring in the logs and the Railroad to take the finished Lumber out.

It might have relied on Railroad spur lines to bring the logs to the mill at it's very beginning, but that's more a Western logging phenomenon where the distances between standing timber and power/transportation were much longer than in the East.

Almost all of the small towns I've posted have similar histories to Oakridge -- Railroad Section housing attracted a sawmill which built a town, which hangs on to life through tourism or service industry when improvements in Log Trucks and roads made consolidating mill operations economical after WWII (mid-1950's)

Snippetsville's layout makes it look like one of the mills that operations were consolidated into.

Jon labeled the Old Mill as "Derelict Sawmill" -- do you invision it as still standing, or partially burned -- as noted above, very few abandoned sawmills don't last unburned for more than a decade or so -- most don't last that long.

Jon:
Snippetsville is a town whose commercial activity is in decline, since the lumber mill closed there has only been the tourists and the Electronics factory ... Most of the population use the town as a dormitory and commute to the big city somewhere along the Interstate - maybe its location should be firmed up.

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The Electronics Factory is another charactersitic of Snippetsville that maks it sound more Western than Eastern -- Specifically, like North Central California -- as electronics plants have replaced Lumber in some small towns in that area.

I would suggest that maybe the Electronics plant is building some niche market tourist or outdoors item invented by a local -- a combination night vision googles and metal detector with GPS capabilities (for the very small niche of treasure hunters who prefer searching a night and get lost a lot. ) Given the nature of this site and the Snippetsville stories, maybe it's making cell technology remote contol vibrating eggs and butt plugs I invented for a failed story --thats a small enough niche market that the company would be continually on the brink of failure. )

FWIW, I think the Mill probably thrived until the mid-1970's until the Freeway/Interstate was completed and logs could be economically hauled to a more modern mill closer to "Big City" -- continuing the trend of consolidating Mill capacity in bigger and more modern mills that require fewer people to operate as transportation costs go down due to road improvements. It finally closed or went bankrupt in the mid-1980's because it was too expensive to upgrade it to compete with newer technology mills.

Snippetsville could be in PA, but the more it's described, the more it sounds like Oregon, Idaho, or Northern California -- somewhere west of the Rocky Mountains, anyway.

As for "Big City" and the Interstate highway, I'd avoid naming them or being very specific about their locations -- naming an interstate pins down the location too firmly and small town people oftn refer tothe closest big city as just "the Big City" or "going into the city," the way Farmers used to refer to "going into town." In my home town, a trip to Eugene was often refered to as "going down the hill."

Quasimodem said:

Alternately, we don’t need to make Snippettsville BECOME one particular place. If we merely intend to replicate a real place as Snippettsville, we might just as well forget the fictional town, and set our stories in the REAL place.

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That's very good point, QM.

I've been trying to provide maps of small towns that share alot of the proposed history of Snippetsville -- towns that died off as the Sawmill closed -- NOT suggesting that any of them be used as the "real snippetsville".

However, about your "The Annual Snippettsville Lumberjack Competition (Name Tentative) , each fall" I think that's probably not something that would be held IN Snippetsville, but rather a regional event that is held nearby.

My hometown used to hold an annual Treeplanting Festival, but it died out even before the mills closed -- it became just too expensive to stage on a small town's budget.

Also, Lumberjack Competitions are "big money events" now -- Snippetsville wouldn't be able to attract the top competitiors on it's own.

Snippetsville might hold an amateur competition, or host a regional qualifier but small town festivals of all kinds are sadly dying out because of the costs of staging them.