article: The Female Price of Male Pleasure

I saw this article the other day:

http://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure


To sum it up, it suggests that men and women have vastly different ideas of what constitutes "good sex." For men, it's good sex if it results in an orgasm. For women, it's good sex if it doesn't cause you pain.

I hasten to add that we deal here with a genre in which sex is always good, and people are always beautiful, and sex isn't painful (except when a woman loses her maidenhead, and even then it's minor and transient), and nobody gets the clap. It's fantasy. I'm OK with that, and I'm as guilty as anybody of using those tropes.

But there was a comment on another thread that people learn about sex from erotica. There are positive aspects of that, in that people learn something about techniques and what turns their partners on, and people have healthy attitudes on sex. But the downside is that people end up with false expectations of what their partners may actually be experiencing.

And it's not confined to porn. Women are discouraged from making their true feelings known, even when the sex is uncomfortable or painful, for a variety of reasons. So men, especially sexually inexperienced young men, take an altogether false impression of a typical woman's first experiences with men.

Most readers of porn are men, I hear, and they probably don't want to read about bad sex, no matter how authentic it is. I have written a few stories that hint of the true female experience, usually in themes where the woman is recovering from the bad sex and being healed of its scars. (Example: "The Pond.") The feedback I've gotten from my female readership has been appreciative. They've told me that I'm telling their story, and they needed to hear it, and they took heart from seeing that they weren't alone.

I invite your comments.

.............

Athalia said:

But there was a comment on another thread that people learn about sex from erotica. There are positive aspects of that, in that people learn something about techniques and what turns their partners on, and people have healthy attitudes on sex. But the downside is that people end up with false expectations of what their partners may actually be experiencing.

Click to expand...

Yes, I saw that comment, and couldn't think of anything sadder, more depressing, with regard to one's sexual discovery. How utterly bleak, to learn one's understanding of sexuality from porn.

Athalia said:

I saw this article the other day:

http://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure


To sum it up, it suggests that men and women have vastly different ideas of what constitutes "good sex." For men, it's good sex if it results in an orgasm. For women, it's good sex if it doesn't cause you pain.

Click to expand...

I can't say as I like the article very much. The author had a few things to say, but she wandered away into tangentially relevant topics over and over. There were a few things I think could be factually disagreed with, but that's not so important. The article didn't address questions that came immediately to my mind: What kind of sex are we talking about? When during sex do women feel pain? Why do they feel pain? What can a man do differently to prevent it?

I'll admit to having read probably hundreds of articles and blog posts about women's view of, and experience in, sex. That is so I can write a woman's character in a way that doesn't seem utterly unrealistic. I've never run across any other articles--aside from medical articles--that took pain during sex as their primary emphasis.

Most of what I've read has focused on what good sex is for women. I don't think I've ever read 'It doesn't hurt,' presented as a definition of good sex. I've perhaps never read anything specific to what bad sex is.

I thought her point that women's pain during sex didn't matter, because sex is about men anyway, was a generalization that is completely untrue in many relationships.

Athalia said:

I saw this article the other day:

http://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure


To sum it up, it suggests that men and women have vastly different ideas of what constitutes "good sex." For men, it's good sex if it results in an orgasm. For women, it's good sex if it doesn't cause you pain.

I hasten to add that we deal here with a genre in which sex is always good, and people are always beautiful, and sex isn't painful (except when a woman loses her maidenhead, and even then it's minor and transient), and nobody gets the clap. It's fantasy. I'm OK with that, and I'm as guilty as anybody of using those tropes.

But there was a comment on another thread that people learn about sex from erotica. There are positive aspects of that, in that people learn something about techniques and what turns their partners on, and people have healthy attitudes on sex. But the downside is that people end up with false expectations of what their partners may actually be experiencing.

And it's not confined to porn. Women are discouraged from making their true feelings known, even when the sex is uncomfortable or painful, for a variety of reasons. So men, especially sexually inexperienced young men, take an altogether false impression of a typical woman's first experiences with men.

Most readers of porn are men, I hear, and they probably don't want to read about bad sex, no matter how authentic it is. I have written a few stories that hint of the true female experience, usually in themes where the woman is recovering from the bad sex and being healed of its scars. (Example: "The Pond.") The feedback I've gotten from my female readership has been appreciative. They've told me that I'm telling their story, and they needed to hear it, and they took heart from seeing that they weren't alone.

I invite your comments.

Click to expand...

Sadly and unfortunately, men and women have vastly different ideas of what they constitute as good writing and what they prefer to read.

Sex, sex, and more sex is all too many men want to read while masturbating themselves. Suffice to write, many more men masturbate while reading a sexy story than do women.

What men want is porn and not erotica. Seemingly, too many men don't care about plot, description, imagery, character development, tension, or dialogue. All they care about is sex. Unless to give the writer a bashing 1 vote for creating, developing, writing, reading, editing, rewriting, rereading, reediting over and again, they don't vote. They don't comment. They just masturbate.

Whomever can write the best masturbation story will do well on this site. Male readers don't care about talented writers, they care more about cumming.

Tragically, the best written stories are down vote because they're more erotic than they are pornographic.

Just as it takes a special kind of writer to write an engaging story with compelling characters, it takes a special kind of writer to write pure pornography. I'm glad I'm the former type of writer than I am the later type of writer.

I had to stop reading after the first sentence. I have never had a sexual encounter that brought tears, nor could I say that I ever had bad sex. Now there is an exception to that last part. He who shall remain nameless thought that sex after marriage was for procreation only and for him, the less touching, looking at, etc. and the quicker it was over, the better. The reason I consider this to be an exception is that I did not consider that to be sex. Not really sure what it was. Making baby? Maybe.

The other thing I could think of would be something like rape and while, yes there is sex involved, it is much more than that. It is a violation and a power thing.

Those things aside, I believe that women should be responsible for their own sexuality and pleasure. Yes, men can give us pleasure. But if we just lie back and be still and let them do whatever... I don't really consider that to be sex either, unless it was sort of agreed upon to begin with. In that case it is highly likely that the guy is going to give you pleasure because that's what he wants to do. I have done the same for guys, because I wanted to!

But... I would never just go into a sexual encounter and expect that I didn't have to do a thing and if the guy didn't give me an orgasm from whatever he was doing, it was bad sex. In most cases I would work along with him to get us both to that goal.

I don't really understand the pain part either. There is pain involved in certain aspects of BDSM and that's a good kind of pain. At least for me.

I once had a book of 365 sexual positions. My BF at the time and I tried to work our way through it. We were both very agile at the time but we agreed that there were some things in there we were just flat out not going to try. And some did cause one or both of us some pain. That was kind of comical though and certainly not something we ever would dwell on.

Sex isn't a one way street unless as I said above, you want it to be at that point in time. But even then, when I have done or received something like that, there was nothing to prevent the other person from moving their body to enhance the experience. Unless perhaps they were tied down. Hehehe. But to me, that can be a good thing too.

I do know some women who flat out hate sex. In some cases, I believe there is a reason for it. Such as various medical conditions. Or maybe it's a mental thing. Something terrible happened to them in their past that they haven't yet come to terms with.

Sounds like the woman who wrote the article has some kind of issues and those are deeper than just sex.

We also have to keep in mind that there is not just one way to have sex. You have to find out what it is that your partner likes and doesn't like. Yes, there are some who have to have a certain thing or certain things happen each and every time or it's not good for them. Those kinds of people are not necessarily for me, but that's okay. We're all different and they will likely find someone else who does like those things or wants to do those things for them. It's all good.

SusanJillParker said:

Sadly and unfortunately, men and women have vastly different ideas of what they constitute as good writing and what they prefer to read.

Sex, sex, and more sex is all too many men want to read while masturbating themselves. Suffice to write, many more men masturbate while reading a sexy story than do women.

What men want is porn and not erotica. Seemingly, too many men don't care about plot, description, imagery, character development, tension, or dialogue. All they care about is sex. Unless to give the writer a bashing 1 vote for creating, developing, writing, reading, editing, rewriting, rereading, reediting over and again, they don't vote. They don't comment. They just masturbate.

Whomever can write the best masturbation story will do well on this site. Male readers don't care about talented writers, they care more about cumming.

Tragically, the best written stories are down vote because they're more erotic than they are pornographic.

Just as it takes a special kind of writer to write an engaging story with compelling characters, it takes a special kind of writer to write pure pornography. I'm glad I'm the former type of writer than I am the later type of writer.

Click to expand...

You may have a point. Although I am a woman, descriptions that can get too wordy, do sometimes make me want to stop reading. That being said, I think I can be guilty of doing just that.

I also think that men have a much easier time masturbating to something written because their goods are right there in the open. How am I supposed to play with the parts I am sitting on? Yeah, I can bring myself to orgasm by thoughts alone and/or squeezing my muscles down there, but that only leads me to wanting more orgasms of the touching kind.

The article was more about gender politics than it was about women experiencing pain during sex. It had a brief reference to pain during sex that wasn't well-explained, and it didn't explore the facts in any detail.

There are a lot of instances where women will have pain during sex. Rape and near-rape instances are evident, and the case she described at the beginning of the article sounded like non-consensual sex. Post-menopausal woman have a high incidence of pain during sex. Rough entry during consensual sex causes pain, but that doesn't usually stay painful.

And then there's that fine line between pain and pleasure.

Some men are very insensitive lovers, and you can imagine their partners will have more pain then others. However, I think most men seek to give their partners pleasure, not pain.

I did think the author came off as maybe someone who didn't enjoy heterosexual relationships.

My impression is that it probably is true that women, on average, are somewhat less likely to assert their wishes and needs in sexual encounter than their male partners, and the consequence of that could well be that they have different impressions of what constitutes a good or bad sexual encounter.

But this sentence in the article stood out to me: "The studies on this are few."

The scattered and scant sourcing of the many factual claims in the article supports this statement, so it makes me skeptical about the validity of the author's many observations.

Do people actually develop false expectations about sex from reading erotic stories? I'm doubtful about that. It's possible that some male readers develop a false expectation, based upon stories they read, that all women always love sex and that considering a women's potential pain is unimportant.

But it seems more likely to me that in the absence of such stories the men wouldn't know about, or think about, a woman's pain anyway. The porn stories are not the cause of the misimpression, though they might reinforce it.

On balance, though, I suspect the good people learn about sex from porn outweighs the bad. If you are an attentive reader or viewer you can learn a lot about positions, masturbation, techniques, fantasies, anatomy, etc.

I very much doubt that men were more sensitive about women's feelings about sex in the pre-porn days.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: porn (especially late-20th century porn) does not have a lot to do with ordinary life. Erotica ... that's a whole different story. But then I'm now officially old.

Athalia said:

I saw this article the other day:

http://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure


To sum it up, it suggests that men and women have vastly different ideas of what constitutes "good sex." For men, it's good sex if it results in an orgasm. For women, it's good sex if it doesn't cause you pain.

I hasten to add that we deal here with a genre in which sex is always good, and people are always beautiful, and sex isn't painful (except when a woman loses her maidenhead, and even then it's minor and transient), and nobody gets the clap. It's fantasy. I'm OK with that, and I'm as guilty as anybody of using those tropes.

But there was a comment on another thread that people learn about sex from erotica. There are positive aspects of that, in that people learn something about techniques and what turns their partners on, and people have healthy attitudes on sex. But the downside is that people end up with false expectations of what their partners may actually be experiencing.

And it's not confined to porn. Women are discouraged from making their true feelings known, even when the sex is uncomfortable or painful, for a variety of reasons. So men, especially sexually inexperienced young men, take an altogether false impression of a typical woman's first experiences with men.

Most readers of porn are men, I hear, and they probably don't want to read about bad sex, no matter how authentic it is. I have written a few stories that hint of the true female experience, usually in themes where the woman is recovering from the bad sex and being healed of its scars. (Example: "The Pond.") The feedback I've gotten from my female readership has been appreciative. They've told me that I'm telling their story, and they needed to hear it, and they took heart from seeing that they weren't alone.

I invite your comments.

Click to expand...

Feminism has a lot of problems. It needs to be evaluated for what it has done and intends to do. The evaluation should be as rigorous as that applied to men. It isn't equality that is wanted. Simply , it is more that is wanted. The methodology of sanctimony is simple and effective.

We will know when there is gender equality. It will be when. there is a proportionately equal number of women as men in prison. It will be when suicide rates for women and men are the same. It will be when the life expectancy of women and men is equal. It will be when the electorate has equal numbers of men and women. It will be when men are able to have their own children without being dependant on a woman. It will be when women and men die in equal numbers at work.

There are so many indicators.. the stats of feminists are always selective. They only want more and more and more ...

Here we have nothing to promote the interests of men. Nothing. It is time it changed so that men aren't the victims of misandry. We need the terminology first. What is the equivalent of a feminist? A masculinist? a blokist? We need justice in the courts. We need justice in the administration of health...

So many things. The abuse of each gender has to stop.

weftandwarp said:

Feminism has a lot of problems. It needs to be evaluated for what it has done and intends to do. The evaluation should be as rigorous as that applied to men. It isn't equality that is wanted. Simply , it is more that is wanted. The methodology of sanctimony is simple and effective.

We will know when there is gender equality. It will be when. there is a proportionately equal number of women as men in prison. It will be when suicide rates for women and men are the same. It will be when the life expectancy of women and men is equal. It will be when the electorate has equal numbers of men and women. It will be when men are able to have their own children without being dependant on a woman. It will be when women and men die in equal numbers at work.

There are so many indicators.. the stats of feminists are always selective. They only want more and more and more ...

Here we have nothing to promote the interests of men. Nothing. It is time it changed so that men aren't the victims of misandry. We need the terminology first. What is the equivalent of a feminist? A masculinist? a blokist? We need justice in the courts. We need justice in the administration of health...

So many things. The abuse of each gender has to stop.

Click to expand...

Thank-you for your fascinating insight on what feminism is. Isn't it incredible that despite men having forming the majority in government and business leadership positions, the evil feminists have somehow managed to manipulate society so that men are at a distinct disadvantage and their woes are completely ignored? Or should women also take responsibility for men's problems? Is this somehow also a woman's duty? I suspect this might be a popular line of thought, given the prostate cancer awareness flyers that are in the women's toilets at the local shopping centre. The same flyers, incidentally, are not in the men's bathrooms (I asked my husband, in case you're wondering how I know).

Jobs for tomorrow; fight for women's rights, fight for men's rights. Split my time equally between the two lest I be accused of favouritism or, fuck, feminism.

I don't see that this article does either sex any favors.

SusanJillParker said:

Sadly and unfortunately, men and women have vastly different ideas of what they constitute as good writing and what they prefer to read.

Sex, sex, and more sex is all too many men want to read while masturbating themselves. Suffice to write, many more men masturbate while reading a sexy story than do women.

What men want is porn and not erotica. Seemingly, too many men don't care about plot, description, imagery, character development, tension, or dialogue. All they care about is sex. Unless to give the writer a bashing 1 vote for creating, developing, writing, reading, editing, rewriting, rereading, reediting over and again, they don't vote. They don't comment. They just masturbate.

Whomever can write the best masturbation story will do well on this site. Male readers don't care about talented writers, they care more about cumming.

Tragically, the best written stories are down vote because they're more erotic than they are pornographic.

Just as it takes a special kind of writer to write an engaging story with compelling characters, it takes a special kind of writer to write pure pornography. I'm glad I'm the former type of writer than I am the later type of writer.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but that is such a one-sided view it almost hurts when reading...

When men want to masturbate they want to read about sex. Not the other way round. I never masturbate when reading on this site and I look for everything else, up to the point where I scroll through the sex scenes. I have no way to prove it but I guarantee that I'm a heterosexual male and enjoy both sex and simple cuddling with my wife a lot.

Many men enjoy erotica a lot but it depends on their (watch out: trigger word coming) current emotional setting. Many of the commenters in the romance section seem to be men and never has anyone lauded a sex scene but always the characters and the story. Ok, maybe they don't want to type with sticky fingers but I don't think so.

It is true that men and women read different kinds of erotica. One major point seems to be that often men don't like to read a story from a female perspective. It just doesn't fit with the real-life experiences. Also men seem more intent on descriptions of visuals rather than emotions but that's far from being black and white.

Here are a couple of examples of comments on my stories. I hope the commenters don't mind me using them here...

"A very enjoyable read with warm and absorbing characters"
"and easily found myself encompassed into the story"
"A lovely story, full of sadness and tragedy, but also love and hope."
"I enjoy your stories; as they have a lot of depth, and you don't insert excessive sexual content."

Of course, I don't know for sure about the genders of these commenters but from the email-contacts I had with some of them, they seems to be male...

Kojak01 said:

Sorry, but that is such a one-sided view it almost hurts when reading...

When men want to masturbate they want to read about sex. Not the other way round. I never masturbate when reading on this site and I look for everything else, up to the point where I scroll through the sex scenes. I have no way to prove it but I guarantee that I'm a heterosexual male and enjoy both sex and simple cuddling with my wife a lot.

Many men enjoy erotica a lot but it depends on their (watch out: trigger word coming) current emotional setting. Many of the commenters in the romance section seem to be men and never has anyone lauded a sex scene but always the characters and the story. Ok, maybe they don't want to type with sticky fingers but I don't think so.

It is true that men and women read different kinds of erotica. One major point seems to be that often men don't like to read a story from a female perspective. It just doesn't fit with the real-life experiences. Also men seem more intent on descriptions of visuals rather than emotions but that's far from being black and white.

Here are a couple of examples of comments on my stories. I hope the commenters don't mind me using them here...

"A very enjoyable read with warm and absorbing characters"
"and easily found myself encompassed into the story"
"A lovely story, full of sadness and tragedy, but also love and hope."
"I enjoy your stories; as they have a lot of depth, and you don't insert excessive sexual content."

Of course, I don't know for sure about the genders of these commenters but from the email-contacts I had with some of them, they seems to be male...

Click to expand...

This has been my experience as well. I have had male readers tell me that they appreciate reading from a female perspective, because they love women and want to understand us better. I have had a few readers write to me, never to discuss the sex in any story, but looking for insight on emotional content.

ausfet said:

Thank-you for your fascinating insight on what feminism is. Isn't it incredible that despite men having forming the majority in government and business leadership positions, the evil feminists have somehow managed to manipulate society so that men are at a distinct disadvantage and their woes are completely ignored? Or should women also take responsibility for men's problems? Is this somehow also a woman's duty? I suspect this might be a popular line of thought, given the prostate cancer awareness flyers that are in the women's toilets at the local shopping centre. The same flyers, incidentally, are not in the men's bathrooms (I asked my husband, in case you're wondering how I know).

Jobs for tomorrow; fight for women's rights, fight for men's rights. Split my time equally between the two lest I be accused of favouritism or, fuck, feminism.

Click to expand...

Thank you, it was fun to read.

Prostate cancer is bigger than breast and cervical combined. I have been going to doctors every year for 15 years, for a prostate check. I have only had it done this year. Every other year they refused to do it. I don't think I'm unusual in this. So, it isn't only men who need to be informed, it is doctors too. So much for fliers-they are only an embarrassment, more than the procedure its self.

MelissaBaby said:

I have had male readers tell me that they appreciate reading from a female perspective

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That's a bit surprising to me but fortunately I never claimed to be omniscient

MelissaBaby said:

want to understand us better

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I love my wife dearly but I've honestly given up on that. A German comedian (yes, they exists ) once said, "You don't have to understand your wife, you just need to love her."

Kojak01 said:

That's a bit surprising to me but fortunately I never claimed to be omniscient



I love my wife dearly but I've honestly given up on that. A German comedian (yes, they exists ) once said, "You don't have to understand your wife, you just need to love her."

Click to expand...

I would not be surprised if there was a difference in the way they respond to a female, rather than a male, author.

MelissaBaby said:

I would not be surprised if there was a difference in the way they respond to a female, rather than a male, author.

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I'd be surprised if there weren't a difference.

MelissaBaby said:

I would not be surprised if there was a difference in the way they respond to a female, rather than a male, author.

Click to expand...

I differ between 1st person male, 1st person female and 3rd person POVs. That's what I meant when I wrote about the 'female perspective'.

Whether it's a man or a woman writing is a different (but not less interesting) question. That would make an interesting research: Comparing the reaction to the same story, word by word, published by a man and a woman.

It remains to be questioned whether a man can write a realistic 1st person female POV (and vice versa). I have doubts but would not mind to be proven wrong. I tried it in my latest story but only because it was such an extreme (and unrealistic) character.

To clarify: I do not say that a woman can't write an superb story from a 1st person male POV (and vice versa, of course) but I think the author's gender would remain detectable.

weftandwarp said:

Thank you, it was fun to read.

Prostate cancer is bigger than breast and cervical combined. I have been going to doctors every year for 15 years, for a prostate check. I have only had it done this year. Every other year they refused to do it. I don't think I'm unusual in this. So, it isn't only men who need to be informed, it is doctors too. So much for fliers-they are only an embarrassment, more than the procedure its self.

Click to expand...

Oh wow that's horrible, luckily all the random women who go to public restrooms have the power to do something about that

member9458 said:

Oh wow that's horrible, luckily all the random women who go to public restrooms have the power to do something about that

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Yep ok.

MelissaBaby said:

This has been my experience as well. I have had male readers tell me that they appreciate reading from a female perspective, because they love women and want to understand us better. I have had a few readers write to me, never to discuss the sex in any story, but looking for insight on emotional content.

Click to expand...

That's largely my experience too (the emotional and personal context and that 1st person love). Those reader emails can be quite insightful all by themselves.

This article got me thinking.

At first, my reaction was, "So what does this have to do with porn?" I mean, we're writing about fantasy worlds here, and we distort reality to make it fit. Science-fiction writers use faster-than-light propulsion systems for the same reason, as a plot device even though AFAWK faster-than-light speeds are impossible.

And I, too, thought it was a bit shrill in places. But I've had enough experience with women to know that pain during sex can be a real thing, and that women don't always communicate that to me, at least not during the relationship. It was just one of those many things about women that I didn't understand. When I looked at the statistics that the author was citing about how inadequate research on female dysfunction has been, I admit it was a bit of a shock. And, in the wake of the #MeToo and #Time's Up movement, I've realized that we've done a damn good job of not talking about women's issues, at least until now.

Will this revelation influence my future writing? Probably not much. But I'm glad for the insight, anyway.

I think that the writer was saying that all women don't have these problems, and that sex for them is painless and fun. But that doesn't give us license to ignore the ones that do have the problems. I gotta think about that some more.

Things porn stories frequently get wrong about sex:
* The hymen is not located a distance down the vagina. Your penis can't run into her maidenhead after it's inside the vagina
* A woman (18+) who's been using Kotexes since her periods have started is unlikely to have a hymen left. If she does, it's barely there
* The vast majority of women do not orgasm from fucking. If she's going to cum, the man should make her cum before they have intercourse
* She'll be much more lubricated and will enjoy intercourse more if she cums before intercourse
* In situations typically described in porn stories (a young, inexperienced male who is very sexually stimulated and it's his first time with this partner), the guy is not going to last very long (< 1 min)
* Given the above two, her cumming two or more times from his fucking her is cranking implausibility up to 11
* If the sex consists of the male character whipping it out and pounding her, it's unlikely to be an enjoyable experience for her
* If she is someone who does orgasm from intercourse, the chance of her cumming at almost the same time that he does is very small
* I've never had someone put their finger up my asshole during sex, but given how much I enjoy prostate exams, I don't think I'd enjoy it during sex
* I've never done anal. My impression is that it's nothing she's going to find enjoyable without a lot of lube and a lot of time getting her sphincter to slowly relax. I don't see spitting on her asshole and then fucking her ass like it's her vagina turning out well