Is including minors in an erotic story child porn?

BlackShanglan said:

I'm not sure about "straight sex," but as all good Discworld fans know, the hedgehog can never be buggered at all.

(I used to have half a dozen verses for that song I'd scribbled down, but alas, I have lost them. I have to settle for "The Good Ship Venus" now.)

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*Clears Throat* *Breathes Deep*

A moose is amusing, a squid quite confusing
Or try on a rhino if you fancy a bruising,
Or mountin' a mountain goat (careful, don't fall!)
But the hedgehog can never be buggered at all.

You might try a fish when you dive in the pool,
Or a giraffe, if you climb on a stool,
Or even the captain of guards on the wall,
But the hedgehog can never be buggered at all.

You could thrust with a thrush if you fancy a climb,
Or pork a few piglets if you have the time,
A skinhead's pet cat if you don't mind a brawl,
But the hedgehog can never be buggered at all.

For prosimian fun, you can bugger a lemur
To bolster your name as a pervert and schemer
The lemurs cry "Frink!" as a coy mating call
But the hedgehog can never be buggered at all!

3113 said:

If you'd been more vague, you might have managed it. I have a guy in one story remembering being a teen and watching the girl next door undress. The two of them aren't naked together, but there is voyeurism going on and near nudity on the girl's part. And I've seen other stories where new 18 year olds talk about having "experience" with sex--obviously having had it before, but they don't say who or when they got this experience.

It's all in how vague you make it. I don't know what you wrote...or what category it was in, come to that (it makes a difference!), but clearly, to someone editing the stories on that day, you were a little to specific for comfort.

I won't argue that it's not a fine line to walk or that there's always a rhyme or reason as to what one writer can get away with and another can't, but honestly, Lit does not insist that every character be ignorant of sex and lacking genitalia until their 18th birthday. The rules are by no means that ridiculous...Lit just insists that the story be very, very, very discreet about the 18 year old's prior experiences.

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Thing is, if one can't just come out and do a full-blown story the way one REALLY wants to, then what's the point in being word-sneaky or hidden-meaning cryptic or tiptoeing around the edges with teases?

There's some cleverness and satisfaction at being creative and circumventing rules...but in the case of wanting good, down and dirty erotica that gets your panties wet, isn't "all or nothing" the rubicon?

IrezumiKiss said:

There's some cleverness and satisfaction at being creative and circumventing rules...but in the case of wanting good, down and dirty erotica that gets your panties wet, isn't "all or nothing" the rubicon?

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*Shrug* There ARE no rules to circumvent. This site does not post stories about people under 18 having sex. This doesn't mean you can't write such stories. By all means, do so, and do it as graphically, and unapologetically as you please. You just won't be able to post them here. If you want to post them here, you'll have to change the character's ages. If you think doing that will ruin your story and it's panty-wetting then don't do it.

As for me, I've had a grand ole panty-wetting time writing down-and-dirty erotica (and reading it) between characters 18 and older. I have never felt compromised, I have never felt that I was circumventing the rules, I have never felt that I wasn't writing exactly what I wanted to write exactly as I wanted to write it, and I have never felt that I've lost the game because I edited my story. Any story I felt that way about wouldn't get edited and wouldn't get posted, simple as that. Hence, If I ever do need to write a story with under 18 years olds I'll post it myself on my own website or some other where they don't have this rule. It's no big deal to me. I don't see why it should be a big deal to anyone else.

Oblimo, you're a joy forever.

BlackShanglan said:

( I have to settle for "The Good Ship Venus" now.)

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Now there is a song for the ages--in all it's variations.

My favorite is the version by the Sex Pistols. AKA 'Friggin' In The Riggin'.

I posted those lyrics on Mama Lynx's Joke thread some months back.

They still make me laugh.

BlackShanglan said:

Oblimo, you're a joy forever.

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I strongly recommend Wintersmith to any Literotician. It's Pratchett's delightfully wicked (but yet thoroughly age appropriate) fairytale/sex-guide for 13 year old girls.

And thus the thread comes full circle.

"Romancin? Basically it is a way tha boy can ge' close ta tha girl, wi'oot her attacking him an scratching his eyes oot." - Rob Anybody

One of my stories -- What's It Like to Be a Man -- probably pushes the Lit limits -- in fact I'm a little surprised it got posted. But, Terrie at a Club Lighthouse Publishing also had no problem with it, and she made me raise a few ages in novels to make sure everyone was over eighteen -- her site is Canadian and apparently there is not the same protection for freedom of speech in the British legal tradition that we have in the US.

Well, I already knew that Lit didn't allow such stories, but what I wanted to know is if I could ever write one with a minor as the protaganist, in graphic sex scenes, without worrying about going to prison over "child pornagraphy"

I wouldn't post it on Lit, though. I've been coming here for awhile before I joined. I joined simply to ask this question, as well as inquire if anyone knows of some erotica websites that would tolerate plots involving bestialiy and the such...???

Lorianna said:

Well, I already knew that Lit didn't allow such stories, but what I wanted to know is if I could ever write one with a minor as the protaganist, in graphic sex scenes, without worrying about going to prison over "child pornagraphy"

I wouldn't post it on Lit, though. I've been coming here for awhile before I joined. I joined simply to ask this question, as well as inquire if anyone knows of some erotica websites that would tolerate plots involving bestialiy and the such...???

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Well, then, you came to the wrong place. Does lit allow explicit Under-aged sex?

NO

Bestiality?

NO

Go search the web. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for.

Lorianna said:

Well, I already knew that Lit didn't allow such stories, but what I wanted to know is if I could ever write one with a minor as the protaganist, in graphic sex scenes, without worrying about going to prison over "child pornagraphy"

I wouldn't post it on Lit, though. I've been coming here for awhile before I joined. I joined simply to ask this question, as well as inquire if anyone knows of some erotica websites that would tolerate plots involving bestialiy and the such...???

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I think the best answer, Lorianna, is that you could write such a story but that, yes, it would be used against you if you posted it anywhere it could exist on its own (including your own computer) and could be connected to you if someone was trying to make a child pornagraphy case against you. There are folks all over the place being prosecuted just for downloading material on underage sex. You'd have to come to someone's attention who was looking to build cases, but I'd think you'd have to worry about it if you were involved in any of it in any way.

I have no idea what the laws are on bestiality, but I certainly wouldn't want a connection to it trotted out in court for anything I was being tried for. So, that would be basis for worry at least.

No I don't know of any such Web sites (and would do everything I could to avoid clicking on one and having that recorded in my Web history).

Lorianna said:

Well, I already knew that Lit didn't allow such stories, but what I wanted to know is if I could ever write one with a minor as the protaganist, in graphic sex scenes, without worrying about going to prison over "child pornagraphy"

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Honestly, it's a iffy question right now. People are having their kids taken away because they posted pictures of their two-year-old naked in the bathtub on their websites. Anyone with a vendetta against you could say you're writing up stories of kiddie porn and putting them up on the web and, depending on where you live in the U.S., the police could come breaking down your door and confiscating your computer. I'm not joking. We live in scary times where people have turned sex offenders into witches from the witch hunts of old. A neighbor has only to point their finger and yell, "Child pornographer!" and suddenly you're guilty until proven innocent.

Ultimately, however, it depends on how you present these scene of a minor having sex, and how old that minor is, how graphic the sex, how much a part of the story, how "innocent" seeming the deed AND where you live--some states have stricter and more ridiculous laws than others. All of this will mitigate whether anyone is *likely* to accuse you of child porn. YOU say that you want to write a story about a 15 year old. You're probably safe. Most states will understand that this is a work of fiction and that it's not kiddie porn.

But there's no way anyone here is going to guarantee that you're going to be safe. In this climate, in this crazy politically conservative world we all take a chance just writing erotica, never mind dipping our toes into the current, witch-hunt waters. That's the way it is. So. How important is it for you to write this story? To post it for strangers to read? We all have to make such decisions. Ditto with Beastiality.

There was a gentleman on this site bitterly complaining only last year that stories he'd posted in the incest category had come to light and the town in which he lived was shunning him because he wrote stories about incest. So there you go. There are no guarantees when it comes to writing erotica, not of any kind. And that's the only honest answer we can give you to your question.

As for sites that post both under-18 stories and bestiality stories, I know they're out there, but I don't visit them, and so I can't recommend any. Do a quick websearch, you'll find them.

Keep in mind that (in the US) "objectionable" written fiction has more protections than visual representations, both Constitutionally and statutorily. But again, keep in mind the climate of the times. In the state in which I live, for example, it's a sex crime to have cybersex with an adult pretending to be a minor as long as you really thought s/he was a minor. This was written specifically for police stings of online pedo-rings (which, IMO, is a good thing), but the language of the statute is frighteningly scant.

And the precedent it states -- eliminating the defense of impossibility, of the requirement of an actus reus, to entrap people who aren't even expressing the will do to the real thing, but the virtual thing over the Internet -- scares the shit out of me.

I suggest that you all take a look at this link

Child pornography: an international perspective

In most jurisdictions, written material is not considered child porngoraphy. Of course, that doesn't mean it might not be dredged up against you in a custody case.

The blogging community livejournal.com recently began kicking people of without warning-- particularly in the "Harry Potter" fandom. It's been interesting to watch.

The big problem in that case is not that Livejournal is suddenly enforcing their TOS when they hadn't been doing so before-- but that they have been so ham-fisted about it. Everyone agrees that they have the right to control what's hosted on their servers-- but they don't want to specify what will get a person banned, and it took a great deal of pressure from the users to get them to use a more reasonable policy-- as in, notify the user first, and give them a chance to remove the offending material.

slyc_willie said:

Well, then, you came to the wrong place. Does lit allow explicit Under-aged sex?

NO

Bestiality?

NO

Go search the web. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahhahahahahaha

Lisa Denton said:

Hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahhahahahahaha

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Indeed. I hope my personal MIB has been enjoying the show, then . . .

Ok, I believe I have a grasp on it. Any visual depiction of children engaging in sexual activity would constitue child porn, not written. But, in the future that may be criminalized as well ~sighs~

Well, since I don't have children, and don't plan on it, I won't have to worry about any custody issues arising from it.

I want to thank all of you personally for your help and insight, and hope to have you in any future threads.

Jenny_Jackson said:

I did write a story once that had children in it. I've read a few that had children as characters. But none have included children in any kind of sexual or sexually inferred activities.

As far as lit is concerned, children are born without knowlege or genitals. On their 18th birthday suddenly their genitals spring forth and they become fully cognizant of everything concerning sex as if by magic.

That is my understanding of the rules of this site.

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I don't think that's quite true. I could have sworn I've read stories where one the character says something like, "I lost my virginity when I was 14." Although it could have been a nineteen year old saying they had been having sex for years, but I want to say it was the former.

I think the issue is "on-screen" sex rather than referenced sex. I'm not positive, but I would think a story where a man told his friend, "I came home and she was having sex with the dog! That dirty bitch!" would pass muster, but going into any more detail would be out of the question.

Lorianna said:

Well, I already knew that Lit didn't allow such stories, but what I wanted to know is if I could ever write one with a minor as the protaganist, in graphic sex scenes, without worrying about going to prison over "child pornagraphy"

I wouldn't post it on Lit, though. I've been coming here for awhile before I joined. I joined simply to ask this question, as well as inquire if anyone knows of some erotica websites that would tolerate plots involving bestialiy and the such...???

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Check out alt.sex.stories.moderated on usenet or look for the archive web page. I suggest the moderated site because the unmoderated is full of 90% crap. They have every kind of story you can imagine. Snuff, bestiality, kiddie-porn.

Lorianna said:

Ok, I believe I have a grasp on it. Any visual depiction of children engaging in sexual activity would constitue child porn, not written. But, in the future that may be criminalized as well ~sighs~

Well, since I don't have children, and don't plan on it, I won't have to worry about any custody issues arising from it.

I want to thank all of you personally for your help and insight, and hope to have you in any future threads.

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Hopefully the trend will be towards less censorship, not more. But, you have to understand, those who would like to suppress ALL erotic expression have an agenda, and not a very hidden one at that. Just as the same group is patiently nibbling away at abortion rights, they are using "protection of children" as an excuse to erode freedom of expression. Of course, everyone wants to protect their children, and it is hard to oppose any measure that has that as its ostensible purpose. But this is not their true intention. It is the wedge they are using to roll back all the sexual liberation of the previous decades.

Hmm. I find this depiction of minors sexy, but I'd argue it's not pornographic.

Sub Joe said:

Hmm. I find this depiction of minors sexy, but I'd argue it's not pornographic.

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Looks like a dirty picture to me.

Sub Joe said:

Hmm. I find this depiction of minors sexy, but I'd argue it's not pornographic.

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Dirty old man

IrezumiKiss said:

Thing is, if one can't just come out and do a full-blown story the way one REALLY wants to, then what's the point in being word-sneaky or hidden-meaning cryptic or tiptoeing around the edges with teases?

There's some cleverness and satisfaction at being creative and circumventing rules...but in the case of wanting good, down and dirty erotica that gets your panties wet, isn't "all or nothing" the rubicon?

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That's a load of self-serving crap.

No! If you want to circumvent and play games with the rules that L and M give us, go somewhere else. There is no site around that wants to risk being accused of illegality - and few of us here that would be complicit with such offensive behavior. Go somewhere else.

elfin_odalisque said:

That's a load of self-serving crap.

No! If you want to circumvent and play games with the rules that L and M give us, go somewhere else. There is no site around that wants to risk being accused of illegality - and few of us here that would be complicit with such offensive behavior. Go somewhere else.

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I wasn't speaking of myself personally wanting this. I was making a general question to those who feel that they want "more." The "more" being the showing of sexuality or expression of sexuality amongst the teen set.

It seems — through what's being discussed and evidenced from some given stories in the archives here, as well as the topic of this thread itself — as if some people want to FLIRT with the issue and seem to take creative license in seeing how far they can push the boundary envelope of under-eighteen sex in their stories without having to cross that ultimate line. My asking was of why the need to flirt at all. Either do it or don't do it. All or nothing. And of course, if you want to do it, then do it elsewhere where it's appreciated.