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Opening with Dialog

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Myikael

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Oct 21, 2014
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I'm moving here to make my comments on this topic. I've taken some heat for my opinion on it, want to respond, and don't want to hijack the original thread (http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1101523) which is in "Story Feedback", not in "Let's make this about Me".

I think commenting on someone else's remarks in a feedback/critique thread is...a poor substitute for making intelligent comments on the piece being critiqued. Make it about the piece, not someone else's remarks. If the OP doesn't agree he/she can move on to another opinion. (Darn, two topics in one thread. I'll make spaghetti tonight and whip myself soundly with one or two of the noodles.)

I advised the OP to never start a story with dialog. I included my reason; it has no context for the reader. That was and is my advise and opinion. Very few writers make it work, and most of those who do, could do much better using a different technique. I don't like it and avoid it like the plague. I also advise against it, especially to new writers. To me, it is a crutch for a writer that can't, or won't, figure out a better way to open his/her story.

As far as I know there is no rule prohibiting or requiring it. When there is no source for supporting a statement, the statement is opinion. That doesn't mean the opinion is wrong, it just means it's an opinion.

I realize many of you are real authors with published works, and I'm just an old fart trying to learn the craft well enough to tell a good story. But I read. I read oodles and oodles of stories and books, and have yet to read one that opened with dialog that would not have been better opening with another technique. Does that mean my opinions are wrong or invalid? Only if everyone else's opinion is also wrong. No rule on that, either. :D

For those who fall back on the fact they get paid for it: consider that people buy crappy books as much as they buy good books. One reason for that is there are probably more crappy books out there than good ones. Fifty Shades of Grey comes to mind. It's a matter of perspective and opinion.

There are many examples of stories opening with dialog, some good, most not so good, but here's my challenge which might bolster give a fresh perspective: How many NYT best selling novels were published in 2013 and how many of them opened with dialog?
 
I've no idea about your 'challenge' - I'm UK based and insufficiently motivated to seek out NYT.
I get what you're saying, but believe it depends upon the the route the rest of the book takes. It is difficult to pen dialogue in a way that reads convincing to the reader as book opening. Not impossible, just difficult.
There can be sound reasons for dialogue taking the high ground, for example, the characters (and story) may deal with an intimate relationship conveyed through verbal interaction: e.g. suppose the protagonist/narrator was blind, by not enhancing the 'external world' the reader is drawn into the dialogue and 'sees' through the blind eyes of the protagonist. Extreme I know, and I got slated years ago for post just such a piece on Story Feedback.
Having subsequently worked over that story many times, the dialogue only technique works, every other way loses the sense of protagonist deprivation.
 
As posted on the other link:

I'm inclined to agree with pilot in concept (but not in his delivery). Beginning a story with dialogue can be a very powerful technique to draw a reader into it, particularly because it isn't as common as other openings. It isn't for every story, but I think it certainly works at times.

When presenting an opinion, you might try starting with "I think" or "I believe" or something similar. Starting with "Never do this" or "always do that" doesn't sound like an opinion; it sounds as if you're stating a fact.

As for the thread hijacking: Welcome to the AH. You'll find more tangents here than in a trigonometry textbook. It's just the way it is, right or wrong.

As for pilot...this was a perfect example of why the "evil cabal" calls you out. You have a valid point to make, and instead of just making it, you feel the need to list out your supposed credentials and then shitting on people with your "amateur writers" line. It is that narcissistic arrogance that turns people off in a big way. Most just ignore you and go on their way, but there are some of us that call you out on your bullshit. Bullies don't like it when people stand up to them, and their first reaction is always to cry out that THEY are being bullied. Do you really want to help other writers out here? Stop being such an asshole, and you'll find that people actually begin to respect your opinion instead of being irritated by it.
 
"I'm getting old," Eddie Coyle tells young Jackie Brown, from whom he is buying some guns. "I spent my whole life sitting around in one crummy joint after another with a bunch of punks like you, drinking coffee, eating hash, and watching other people take off for Florida while I got to sweat how the hell I'm going to pay the plumber next week."

THE FRIENDS OF EDDIE COYLE by George V. Higgins.
 
Yes but in this example there is also some context and explanation involved.

"... he tells young Jackie Brown, from whom he is buying some guns." Ok, then I know what's going on.

In general I personally do not like stories that start with un-explained pure dialogue. I feel harassed. I feel forced into something. I feel the author comes across as arrogant and can't be bothered to acknowledge the presence of the reader.

It's a personal preference. I wouldn't state it as a golden rule of writing.


JAMESBJOHNSON said:
"I'm getting old," Eddie Coyle tells young Jackie Brown, from whom he is buying some guns. "I spent my whole life sitting around in one crummy joint after another with a bunch of punks like you, drinking coffee, eating hash, and watching other people take off for Florida while I got to sweat how the hell I'm going to pay the plumber next week."

THE FRIENDS OF EDDIE COYLE by George V. Higgins.
Click to expand...
 
Writing as well as reading is personal and what grates on you stylistically might not do so for someone else. The reason there is no hard fast rule is because there IS no hard fast rule! :)

Being tolerant and respectful though never goes out of style. Keep that in mind

-V
 
"But you can't begin a story with dialog!" she exclaimed. "And starting a sentence with 'but' is almost as bad y'know..."
 
Swilly said:
As posted on the other link:
...
Stop being such an asshole...
Click to expand...

I don’t know which post in the referenced thread is pilot’s. I didn’t check any responses for credentials. But I did note more than one response that pointed out my feedback rather than just providing additional feedback on the same topic. One responder even stated he/she even gets paid for it (referencing, I believe, the writer's published works) I just don't see where getting paid to do something makes that person's opinion more valid than anyone else's. So, yeah, I took some heat and wanted to discuss it away from the original thread. Don’t you think that only fair to the OP?

You’re right, I might try to soften the blow, but I’m human and don’t always see my remarks as harsh or even invalid. You might even see I started my suggestions by saying, “Some suggestions, if you don’t mind.” But, hey, you’re having fun ragging on me, feel free to ignore the obvious. Besides, it doesn’t sound like an opinion to me. Sounds more like (gasp!) a suggestion. In this case it’s a suggestion based on my experience and preference. But, I can’t speak for how you interpret it.

I find hijacked threads often interesting reading, but I try to take a new/different topic elsewhere. I think that is more appropriate, especially when the original thread is a request from someone for feedback on something they’ve written. Again, that’s just me.

Now to the nitty gritty of your comments.

What evil cabal are you referring to? I did not use that phrase nor did I imply it. I stated I’d taken heat for my opinion. That doesn’t bother me, but I wanted to hear more opinions on it outside of that feedback thread. Methinks you read too much into it and should see your physician, maybe request a higher dose of valium or whatever medication you obviously aren’t taking.

I am an amateur writer. I am astounded that you try to twist a bald-faced truth into something nefarious. I’ve never sold anything, and most of what I’ve written wouldn’t sell even as crappy text. So, help me out, here. What must I do to qualify as an amateur writer? And why are you offended by (or feign offense at) my opinion of my writing skills (or lack thereof)?

I have a pretty realistic grasp of my arrogance, so, perhaps, you’d like to expand your vocabulary with more fitting adjective to describe it.

Will you define most in the context you used it? Most members of literotica.com ignore most other members, so, regretfully, my feelings weren’t hurt by that remark. Unless you can support your claim with statistics, you might consider it just your way of venting without saying anything important.

I’m not a bully, and I don’t feel bullied by anyone here; not even you. I find some remarks in various threads I’ve viewed distasteful, and I know some people believe some of my remarks should be flushed into the nearest sewer. People disagree on many issues, but for the most part I think the members of literotica.com are intelligent, articulate and capable of giving dissenting opinions without resorting to childish name-calling and obscenities. Most. A good number of them hold opinions just as dearly as I hold some of mine – and I don’t think that is offensive or inappropriate, even when they express them.

What I most enjoyed about your remarks, Swilly, is that they are overwhelming evidence that there are greater assholes than I. You’ve helped me feel much better about myself today. Thank you.
 
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neonlyte said:
I've no idea about your 'challenge' - I'm UK based and insufficiently motivated to seek out NYT...
QUOTE]

The majority of responders disagree with my opinion. My thoughts are that authors of best sellers just might know more about what works and what doesn't than we do.

New York Times is just one place where novels are chosen as best sellers, and it's the one that popped into my mind. The idea is to determine how many of those novels open with a line of dialog. If the percentage is fairly high, my stance might be more questionable to me, but if it is low, well, that might cause other reevaluations.

So, if you're interested in the research, you'd probably use a list closer to home.

Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
 
Myikael,

Perhaps you should go back and read what I wrote again. The paragraph beginning with: "as for pilot" had nothing to do with you. It was directed at sr71, and the way he responded to your posting. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
 
I wonder if it's different for a short story though, which would mean that comparing many Lit stories to best selling novels is comparing apples to oranges.
 
So starting a story with...

"Fuck me, fuck me hard," she screamed.

Would be a bad thing? :eek:

I guess I'll have to stop doing that then. :devil:
 
patientlee said:
I wonder if it's different for a short story though, which would mean that comparing many Lit stories to best selling novels is comparing apples to oranges.
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I had the same thought too. Maybe. Maybe it makes no diff either. If it works, it works.
 
Myikael, I wonder what your thoughts are on PG Wodehouse as a prose writer? Some qualified judges seem to think he passes muster.

The opening of Right Ho, Jeeves:

"Jeeves," I said, "may I speak frankly?"

"Certainly, sir."

"What I have to say may wound you."

"Not at all, sir."

"Well, then——"

No—wait. Hold the line a minute. I've gone off the rails.

I don't know if you have had the same experience, but the snag I always come up against when I'm telling a story is this dashed difficult problem of where to begin it. It's a thing you don't want to go wrong over, because one false step and you're sunk. I mean, if you fool about too long at the start, trying to establish atmosphere, as they call it, and all that sort of rot, you fail to grip and the customers walk out on you.

Get off the mark, on the other hand, like a scalded cat, and your public is at a loss. It simply raises its eyebrows, and can't make out what you're talking about.

And in opening my report of the complex case of Gussie Fink-Nottle, Madeline Bassett, my Cousin Angela, my Aunt Dahlia, my Uncle Thomas, young Tuppy Glossop and the cook, Anatole, with the above spot of dialogue, I see that I have made the second of these two floaters.​

I think he covers the issue pretty succintly - and, perhaps pointedly, with marked good humour.
 
Allow me to offer up a couple of "dialog openers" that I think would hook me immediately:

(1)

"Be sure to wave at all those people over there on that grassy knoll, Jack."

"I'm trying to make eye contact with as many as I can, Jackie. I can't believe the turnout Dallas has given us."

Thanks to my high-power scope and position forward of the slowly approaching limousine, I could see that comments were being traded between the First Lady and the President, but I was too focused on my objective to attempt reading their lips. Just like that crazy patsy, Oswald, we had recruited...I had a job to do and was only waiting to see the flash from his rifle muzzle before I squeezed off my own trigger.

(2)

"Baby, get me one too, would you please?"

"But I thought you quit smoking, babe?" I inquired as I knocked two cigarettes from the pack of Winstons I had retrieved from the nightstand.

"I did, but after that Mount St. Helen's level eruption you just gave me, I really need a smoke. Damn!"

After kissing the flame of the lighter to each of our cigarettes and inhaling deeply on mine, I snuggled back up to my new lover and began reflecting in my own mind just how amazing the last hour in bed had been.

* * * * *

Just a couple I whipped off...don't know how others would see them as openers. <shrug> I do believe the technique can be used successfully, but should also be implemented sparingly.
 
Myikael said:
neonlyte said:
I've no idea about your 'challenge' - I'm UK based and insufficiently motivated to seek out NYT...
QUOTE]

The majority of responders disagree with my opinion. My thoughts are that authors of best sellers just might know more about what works and what doesn't than we do.

New York Times is just one place where novels are chosen as best sellers, and it's the one that popped into my mind. The idea is to determine how many of those novels open with a line of dialog. If the percentage is fairly high, my stance might be more questionable to me, but if it is low, well, that might cause other reevaluations.

So, if you're interested in the research, you'd probably use a list closer to home.

Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Youre a pompous shit for brains.
Click to expand...
 
Myikael said:
The majority of responders disagree with my opinion. My thoughts are that authors of best sellers just might know more about what works and what doesn't than we do.
Click to expand...

Actually, for me and perhaps others, we're just disagreeing with your statement from the other thread: Never start a story (flash, short, novel, whatever) with a weather observation or dialog. Yes, I realize you precede that with "some suggestions," but to "suggest" that one "never" do a thing goes beyond suggesting. I certainly haven't had any best-selling novels, but starting a lot of stories with a line of dialogue doesn't seem to have hurt me in terms of readers here.

As I said on the other thread, I went to Amazon and looked at their Kindle Romance best sellers. It's not a scientific poll and I didn't go through all 100 or anything like that, but what I did find in ten or fifteen books is that about half started with a line of dialogue and half didn't. So while it might not be the way everyone starts a story, it hardly seems uncommon.

If you as a reader don't like stories that open with dialogue, no problem. I as a reader don't like stories that go with the I/you construction; I'll click off as soon as I see that. There's nothing inherently wrong with that construction, I just don't like it. So to me, there's nothing inherently wrong with opening a story with a line of spoken or internal dialogue.
 
Just a couple I whipped off...don't know how others would see them as openers. <shrug> I do believe the technique can be used successfully, but should also be implemented sparingly.
Click to expand...

But what do you mean by sparingly? An author should only do it once in a while?
 
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On the other thread, the OP flatly gave "do not open with dialogue" as an instruction (not a suggestion or an opinion--he stated it as instruction). That was nonsense, and I said it was (and so was his advice not to start with confusion). So, sue me for countering bad advice here and being protective of a writer's privilege not to write in these narrow little boxes that inexperienced "gurus" tell them to. (I also posted I wished folks here would stop trying to force other writers into nonsensical boxes like this--and I stand by that statement, as well.)
 
Swilly said:
Myikael,

Perhaps you should go back and read what I wrote again. The paragraph beginning with: "as for pilot" had nothing to do with you. It was directed at sr71, and the way he responded to your posting. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
Click to expand...

Apology accepted, and I apologize for not recognizing it for what it is. First use seemed to tie into the second use. I have no idea which post was his, and I'm not going to go looking.

So, please, redirect all my remarks on the paragraph towards him/her. He/she can then decide whether or not to call for swords or pistols at dawn.
 
sr71plt said:
On the other thread, the OP flatly gave "do not open with dialogue" as an instruction (not a suggestion or an opinion--he stated it as instruction). That was nonsense, and I said it was (and so was his advice not to start with confusion). So, sue me for countering bad advice here and being protective of a writer's privilege not to write in these narrow little boxes that inexperienced "gurus" tell them to. (I also posted I wished folks here would stop trying to force other writers into nonsensical boxes like this--and I stand by that statement, as well.)
Click to expand...

Well, the post opened like this:
Some suggestions, if you don't mind:

Never start a story (flash, short, novel, whatever) with a weather observation or dialog. ...
Click to expand...

But making a suggestion that starts with "never" seems a bit contradictory to me.
 
PennLady said:
Well, the post opened like this:


But making a suggestion that starts with "never" seems a bit contradictory to me.
Click to expand...

Telling someone "never" to do something is instruction. I really can't get over how those trying to protect a writer's choices and creativity here get short shrift compared to the blind leading the blind advice givers. (Of course, on this particular point, I was surprised to see several of my perpetual backbiters agreeing with my point.)
 
sr71plt said:
Telling someone "never" to do something is instruction. I really can't get over how those trying to protect a writer's choices and creativity here get short shrift compared to the blind leading the blind advice givers. (Of course, on this particular point, I was surprised to see several of my perpetual backbiters agreeing with my point.)
Click to expand...
You'd see it more often if you avoided using your condescending tone while always tooting your own horn.

It's not your opinions that people take issue with; it's your way of voicing them. For a guy that seems to possess some intelligence, you are extremely ignorant when it comes to this point.
 
I've picked up some useful writing tips here but I don't think this is one of them.

Dialogue can set a scene very quickly and pull the reader into the story, depending on how you do it (as per many writing techniques).
 
DesEsseintes said:
Myikael, I wonder what your thoughts are on PG Wodehouse as a prose writer? Some qualified judges seem to think he passes muster.
Click to expand...

First, before anyone accuses me of trying to boost my BS quotient, I have to admit I did not know who Mr. Wodehouse was. I thought I might have heard the name, but figured I'd better make sure I knew who I was talking about.

The only thing of his I've read is what you've posted and what is available via "Look Inside" at Amazon for the same title, and have concluded that I don't care for it for the following three reasons:

  1. It opens with dialog that leaves me wondering when the story starts. If I'd pulled the book off a shelf in a library or book store and started reading from page one I would have put it back after paragraph two. There is nothing there that grasps me. (And for those who want to say it - I might not grasp the subtlety of the humor. In fact, I don't think I did through all the available pages at Amazon.)
  2. There is no context for the first sentence. Or the second. Or third.
  3. The story appears, after more than a page, to be about things British. Sorry, I don't even read things about St Louis, MO, USA, just ten miles from my house, unless there's something going on in the story that interests.
I agree with you; Mr. Wodehouse has been judged adequate by more educated and erudite men and woman than I happen to be. The simple fact that his books can still be purchased is a testament to his talents and skill. Yet for all that, his writing isn't for me.

I also agree with you that the excerpt addresses the issue quite succinctly and is a splendid example of how not to do it.

I wonder, should the first sentence were removed and read by itself and without knowing the author's name, if it would attract anyone's interest enough for them to read on.
 
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