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My Incest story

On another note, although I do like to see contest stories discussed in depth on the discussion board, I think, because a lot of others who are entered in the contest are also regulars on the board, that there should be a moratorium on focusing in depth on any single entry until after the contest is over beyond brief chit chat on what the story's about on the contest thread. It comes across to me as rather a slap-in-the-face promotional right in front of others competing in the same contest.
 
KeithD said:
And hopefully you won't give it "constructive" criticism, because reviewing a story in a category you look down on, although it is accepted for publishing here and has interested readers, isn't constructive right off the top. This is something you just won't understand no matter how many times it's noted on the board.

If the story is in a category you don't like to read, well beyond just not reading it, don't write a critical review of it. Constructive criticism starts off accepting the author's frame of reference and helping the author present the author's story, not substituting a story and preferences of your own. But you've been told that before.
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Thanks again for dropping by to argue that there should be no feedback on stories in the Story Feedback forum.

If you looked at my sig, you'd see that three of the four stories listed have "sister" in their title. Surprise! They're all brother-sister incest stories. And all of them are very successful.

KeithD said:
This is a crux of what disturbs me about some of the exchanging here. To go into writing an incest story with the thought that it has to be approached by "guilt, shame, and reluctance" to be good is starting off with condemnation of the category, I think. It's actually the same way some approach writing a Gay Male story. That's pretty defeatist and, to me, means you probably shouldn't even start writing the story. You've already rejected the category.

I've written a few incest stories for Lit. (under sr71plt), because I like to try writing in all categories. I wrote them from a more positive attitude, though--from what's beyond or instead of "guilt, shame, and reluctance." It's also where I began with the Loving Wife stories I've written. If I'd thought they ipso facto could not be "good" stories because I haven't accepted the category already as one of "guilt, shame, and reluctance," I wouldn't have bothered to write them. I think writing a "good" story for these categories can include stories that are coherent and make sense without giving up on the category from the start.
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Tough to get more ironic. It's not a category that you read regularly and you're telling people who do read the category regularly how they should write their stories?

I read an incest story by you. Rough summary - nephew mows aunt's lawn and she thanks him by fucking him. She's a MILF, he's hung like a horse and a good time is had by all. The sex was "positive" but meaningless.

I'm not going to say that gays aren't discriminated against, but gay couples can openly be together. They can even get married! But incest couples cannot openly be together. The aunt can't tell the nephew's parent that she wants to date their son. The nephew isn't going to get a positive reaction if he tells his friends that he's dating his aunt.

In a good aunt-nephew story, he's attracted to her but is afraid to show it. He can't tell anyone that he's attracted to his aunt. He feels guilt for having feelings for his aunt but he can't stop having feelings for her. And she's in the same position. It's that "I shouldn't have feelings for you but I can't help myself" that give the story tension and drama. If the story was instead about a young man and an older female coworker, there isn't any reason for them to not act on their mutual attraction. To me, those stories have much less tension. A good incest story keeps building up that attraction and the tension until the two people can't take it any more and surrender to their feelings even though they know no one will approve of their relationship.
 
8letters said:
you're telling people who do read the category regularly how they should write their stories?
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What's ironic is that you've made an art of "not getting it."


I didn't ask you to comment on any of my stories. I haven't commented on any of your stories. I didn't ask you for feedback, not least because I don't think you have the ability to critique writing. I have made my position quite clear about vigilante unsolicited story criticism on Literotica and yet you can't help yourself from continuing your boorish ways and attempts to show that you are an expert in what you aren't--and that others are obligated to be subjected to your forcing your opinions down their throats whether that's what they came to Literotica to receive or not.

Oh, well, you obviously are going to continue being what you are.
 
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KeithD said:
This is a crux of what disturbs me about some of the exchanging here. To go into writing an incest story with the thought that it has to be approached by "guilt, shame, and reluctance" to be good is starting off with condemnation of the category, I think. It's actually the same way some approach writing a Gay Male story. That's pretty defeatist and, to me, means you probably shouldn't even start writing the story. You've already rejected the category.

I've written a few incest stories for Lit. (under sr71plt), because I like to try writing in all categories. I wrote them from a more positive attitude, though--from what's beyond or instead of "guilt, shame, and reluctance." It's also where I began with the Loving Wife stories I've written. If I'd thought they ipso facto could not be "good" stories because I haven't accepted the category already as one of "guilt, shame, and reluctance," I wouldn't have bothered to write them. I think writing a "good" story for these categories can include stories that are coherent and make sense without giving up on the category from the start.
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You've put your finger on a very interesting issue, and I agree that there are disturbing implications about emphasizing guilt and shame, but I think it depends on how you use those elements, and I don't quite reach the same conclusion you do.

Gay male and incest are, to me, not the same. Maybe they are similar to some people. I see nothing wrong at all with gay male relationships, whereas with incest, even if it's consensual and involving adults, I have reservations, although I allow my fantasy world self to ignore those reservations and enjoy indulging in the fantasy.

The function of guilt and shame in the story is not to convey the author's POV that there's something wrong going on, it's to reflect that in the real world these probably would be elements, and also that they add dramatic tension to the story. Not every erotica reader feels this way, but for me part of what makes a story erotic is pushing up against societal boundaries and expectations about what's right and wrong. In my incest stories, the characters confront these issues to some degree but in the end the sexual activity is depicted as something positive.

I think guilt and shame and reluctance are big elements of erotic stories in general. They make the story more erotic for me. It's a matter of tasting the forbidden fruit -- even if it's only in the character's mind, not my mind as an author or reader that it should be regarded as forbidden. Guilt and shame are part of the main character's internal struggle.

For instance, someday I want to write a gay male story. It probably would be from the point of view of a heretofore-straight man who enters a gay relationship and struggles with feelings of guilt, but overcomes them. That would make the story more interesting to me, as a straight man.

I suppose a psychologist might ask whether my emphasis on these issues is a projection of unresolved things going on inside me, but I imagine that's true for all of us who write erotic stories, so I'm not going to worry about that!
 
SimonDoom said:
You've put your finger on a very interesting issue, and I agree that there are disturbing implications about emphasizing guilt and shame, but I think it depends on how you use those elements, and I don't quite reach the same conclusion you do.

Gay male and incest are, to me, not the same. Maybe they are similar to some people. I see nothing wrong at all with gay male relationships, whereas with incest, even if it's consensual and involving adults, I have reservations, although I allow my fantasy world self to ignore those reservations and enjoy indulging in the fantasy.

The function of guilt and shame in the story is not to convey the author's POV that there's something wrong going on, it's to reflect that in the real world these probably would be elements, and also that they add dramatic tension to the story. Not every erotica reader feels this way, but for me part of what makes a story erotic is pushing up against societal boundaries and expectations about what's right and wrong. In my incest stories, the characters confront these issues to some degree but in the end the sexual activity is depicted as something positive.

I think guilt and shame and reluctance are big elements of erotic stories in general. They make the story more erotic for me. It's a matter of tasting the forbidden fruit -- even if it's only in the character's mind, not my mind as an author or reader that it should be regarded as forbidden. Guilt and shame are part of the main character's internal struggle.

For instance, someday I want to write a gay male story. It probably would be from the point of view of a heretofore-straight man who enters a gay relationship and struggles with feelings of guilt, but overcomes them. That would make the story more interesting to me, as a straight man.

I suppose a psychologist might ask whether my emphasis on these issues is a projection of unresolved things going on inside me, but I imagine that's true for all of us who write erotic stories, so I'm not going to worry about that!
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Yes, that puts the finger on the disagreement. In determining whether a story is "good" or not, I think it has to be analyzed from the basis of the author's perspective in delivering the goods and to what extent that was accomplished--with the critique focused on helping them get that done. It doesn't include my own views/prejudices on the genre.
 
SimonDoom said:
You've put your finger on a very interesting issue, and I agree that there are disturbing implications about emphasizing guilt and shame, but I think it depends on how you use those elements, and I don't quite reach the same conclusion you do.

Gay male and incest are, to me, not the same. Maybe they are similar to some people. I see nothing wrong at all with gay male relationships, whereas with incest, even if it's consensual and involving adults, I have reservations, although I allow my fantasy world self to ignore those reservations and enjoy indulging in the fantasy.

The function of guilt and shame in the story is not to convey the author's POV that there's something wrong going on, it's to reflect that in the real world these probably would be elements, and also that they add dramatic tension to the story. Not every erotica reader feels this way, but for me part of what makes a story erotic is pushing up against societal boundaries and expectations about what's right and wrong. In my incest stories, the characters confront these issues to some degree but in the end the sexual activity is depicted as something positive.

I think guilt and shame and reluctance are big elements of erotic stories in general. They make the story more erotic for me. It's a matter of tasting the forbidden fruit -- even if it's only in the character's mind, not my mind as an author or reader that it should be regarded as forbidden. Guilt and shame are part of the main character's internal struggle.

For instance, someday I want to write a gay male story. It probably would be from the point of view of a heretofore-straight man who enters a gay relationship and struggles with feelings of guilt, but overcomes them. That would make the story more interesting to me, as a straight man.

I suppose a psychologist might ask whether my emphasis on these issues is a projection of unresolved things going on inside me, but I imagine that's true for all of us who write erotic stories, so I'm not going to worry about that!
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't mind a good dollop of guilt and reluctance in an incest story, even if we didn't really cover those themes in the story I contributed to. I'm fairly catholic in my tastes when it comes to incest stories; I like characters who embrace their situation with gusto, but I'm not averse to characters who resist and feel mostly awful about what they're doing. For me the key thing is burning, overwhelming desire. I want the characters to be so consumed with their passion; whether they love or hate what they’re doing, they can't control their urges to fuck a close family member.
 
That should be amended to say "According to you."

There are plenty of ways to write incest stories, and the hemming and hawing oh my god we can't is only ONE approach.

some of my favorite incest writers don't go into the whole guilt angle at all.

Some start bang right in the middle, with no explanation how they got there, and I don't care.

You're mistaking your favorite approach for some sort of be all end all.


8letters said:
In a good aunt-nephew story, he's attracted to her but is afraid to show it. He can't tell anyone that he's attracted to his aunt. He feels guilt for having feelings for his aunt but he can't stop having feelings for her. And she's in the same position. It's that "I shouldn't have feelings for you but I can't help myself" that give the story tension and drama. If the story was instead about a young man and an older female coworker, there isn't any reason for them to not act on their mutual attraction. To me, those stories have much less tension. A good incest story keeps building up that attraction and the tension until the two people can't take it any more and surrender to their feelings even though they know no one will approve of their relationship.
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Carnal_Flower said:
You're mistaking your favorite approach for some sort of be all end all.
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Absolutely. 8Letters is pigheaded about this no matter how often and how directly it's pointed out. That's basically what makes 8Letters a bad story critiquer.
 
SimonDoom said:
I think guilt and shame and reluctance are big elements of erotic stories in general. They make the story more erotic for me. It's a matter of tasting the forbidden fruit -- even if it's only in the character's mind, not my mind as an author or reader that it should be regarded as forbidden. Guilt and shame are part of the main character's internal struggle.
Click to expand...
Big elements in some incest stories, certainly, but to state they're the only essential elements is to dismiss other motivations that can be equally powerful.

I've got vague plans to write an EB style incest story that've been cogitating back there in the deeper recesses of my mind, that so far as I know, wouldn't have any of those motivations. It would probably surface as a genetic sexual attraction piece, for the simple reason that I have an older sister who was the first woman I ever saw naked - I was twelve, she was seventeen - and then she left the family home, went overseas, and we've hardly seen each other since.

I guess I don't "do" guilt, shame and reluctance terribly well, not being Catholic, being fairly shameless as I've grown older, and generally fairly willing. I don't think they're key to my erotica - they might be, but not consciously as I write them.
 
I am paying attention to the critiques of my critiques. Let me try to respectfully provide some helpful feedback.

To me, a key scene is when the dad and daughter have their first long chat. Here's his half of the first half of the dialog:
"You glad school is done, sweetheart?"
"Ah, the Sisters of Mercy. Well, it was a very good school. Best in the city."
"Now, now. I'm sure they were all very pious."
"What are you talking about? Cheerleader, honor society. . . you were very popular, you know that."
"Tell me about it," I said, without thinking. "You could be describing my job."
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To me, in my humble opinion, he never tries to draw out her thoughts and instead repeatedly shuts down her expressions of dissatisfaction. I personally don't see any chemistry in this talk nor any signs of that she's interested in something more than a traditional dad/daughter relationship. I'd offer some suggestions about what I'd expect to see in such a dialog, but apparently offering suggestions is offensive.
 
You seem to be blanking out the fact that while they're having this conversation, she's just come outside in her dental floss bikini--after he's thought, "If she makes any sort of sign, I'll know."

I think the aggressive near nakedness was the sign--a pretty obvious one "that she's interested in something more than a traditional D/d relationship." He clearly gets it in no uncertain terms.

Also, while they're having this conversation, he's floating spread-eagled on a raft in front of her with his wet suit sticking like a "puckered second skin" to his cock. He knows it, and he knows she's watching.

You're also blanking out her half of the conversation, where she complains about "nuns" and that "she could never--" [give up sex is the obvious implication]

It's subtle, true, but I think the implication is she didn't "quite fit in" because of her sexual nature.

When he says "Tell me about it," he's confessing that he, too, doesn't quite fit in to his societal role, especially those that demand "piousness" or "honor".

We're both pervs and we know it, that was the double entendre of that pool conversation.

Maybe it went over your head.


As well, you're perfectly entitled to say you didn't find any chemistry in this convo--of course that's your right as a reader. It didn't grab you. It was too subtle. it didn't draw you in. That's fine. But I think you need to represent the conversation in its totality for that to be valid.

8letters said:
I am paying attention to the critiques of my critiques. Let me try to respectfully provide some helpful feedback.

To me, a key scene is when the dad and daughter have their first long chat. Here's his half of the first half of the dialog:

To me, in my humble opinion, he never tries to draw out her thoughts and instead repeatedly shuts down her expressions of dissatisfaction. I personally don't see any chemistry in this talk nor any signs of that she's interested in something more than a traditional dad/daughter relationship. I'd offer some suggestions about what I'd expect to see in such a dialog, but apparently offering suggestions is offensive.
Click to expand...
 
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electricblue66 said:
Big elements in some incest stories, certainly, but to state they're the only essential elements is to dismiss other motivations that can be equally powerful.

I've got vague plans to write an EB style incest story that've been cogitating back there in the deeper recesses of my mind, that so far as I know, wouldn't have any of those motivations. It would probably surface as a genetic sexual attraction piece, for the simple reason that I have an older sister who was the first woman I ever saw naked - I was twelve, she was seventeen - and then she left the family home, went overseas, and we've hardly seen each other since.

I guess I don't "do" guilt, shame and reluctance terribly well, not being Catholic, being fairly shameless as I've grown older, and generally fairly willing. I don't think they're key to my erotica - they might be, but not consciously as I write them.
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I don't mean to suggest they are essential elements. This story is a good example of a story that succeeds without them. I'm looking forward to reading yours.

I mean that they often play a role in these stories because (a) in real life, many participants in such activity would feel guilt and shame so their presence lends the story an air of verisimilitude, and (b) they are useful devices for creating dramatic tension and conflict. But of course there are other ways to make an incest story seem real and to have worthwhile conflict.

I didn't grow up with a particularly strong sense of guilt and shame either, but I would say it was a somewhat inhibited environment, and part of the fun of erotica (for me) -- reading and writing it -- is the sense of breaking free of inhibitions and exploring new erotic ground.
 
SimonDoom said:
I don't mean to suggest they are essential elements. This story is a good example of a story that succeeds without them. I'm looking forward to reading yours.

I mean that they often play a role in these stories because (a) in real life, many participants in such activity would feel guilt and shame so their presence lends the story an air of verisimilitude, and (b) they are useful devices for creating dramatic tension and conflict. But of course there are other ways to make an incest story seem real and to have worthwhile conflict.

I didn't grow up with a particularly strong sense of guilt and shame either, but I would say it was a somewhat inhibited environment, and part of the fun of erotica (for me) -- reading and writing it -- is the sense of breaking free of inhibitions and exploring new erotic ground.
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Yep, gotcha :).

When I first got to Lit, I was gob-smacked how popular incest was. I never knew so many boys wanted to boff their mom, and because of my own age, I thought, "What a waste of a perfectly good woman." I'd never waste writing a sexually mature woman on a gormless eighteen year old, and being a father of a daughter, the squick factor was way too high to try D/d. Privately, I've tried twice, the first was a spectacular failure that was much appreciated as a gesture, but didn't touch the right buttons. The second tapped a different set, and got disturbingly close to something, let me just say.

But sibcest for me, because of my personal family dynamic, that's a whole other thing. It's a matter of working up the guts to face myself, I think, because writing so close to home ("boom tish") would dig pretty deep, like looking at myself in a mirror. My only stand-alone attempts at incest, so far, do that mirroring a lot. Both children of the same parents, that sort of thing ... paging Dr Freud ;).
 
electricblue66 said:
Yep, gotcha :).

When I first got to Lit, I was gob-smacked how popular incest was. I never knew so many boys wanted to boff their mom, and because of my own age, I thought, "What a waste of a perfectly good woman." I'd never waste writing a sexually mature woman on a gormless eighteen year old, and being a father of a daughter, the squick factor was way too high to try D/d. Privately, I've tried twice, the first was a spectacular failure that was much appreciated as a gesture, but didn't touch the right buttons. The second tapped a different set, and got disturbingly close to something, let me just say.

But sibcest for me, because of my personal family dynamic, that's a whole other thing. It's a matter of working up the guts to face myself, I think, because writing so close to home ("boom tish") would dig pretty deep, like looking at myself in a mirror. My only stand-alone attempts at incest, so far, do that mirroring a lot. Both children of the same parents, that sort of thing ... paging Dr Freud ;).
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It's a strange what floats different people's boats. I LOVE incest stories, but it has to involve a parent and child (well, not a child, but you know what I mean). Sibling incest does next to nothing for me (unless it's spectacularly well written). I can't explain it, since I've no personal desire to shag any member of my family.
 
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