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Old 08-14-2017, 02:34 PM   #26
sr71plt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypoxia View Post
Incorrect. One side was armed, one side was not. And note that the attack was AWAY from the main action, and the murderous Nazi deliberately ran over counter-protesters who were dispersing. This was a terror attack goaded by Tromp's words, and Tromp hasn't disavowed his armed followers. Shame!
The first part of that's not correct either (the second part is). One side was armed with guns and serious armor (the alt-right), but a segment of the counter demonstrators came armed with lower-level weapons too--and used them (and were in place at the park before the alt-right demonstrators arrived). There were segments on both sides (granted more on the alt-right side, which instigated all of this) that came armed and intending to fight--and did so.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:43 PM   #27
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I've carried professionally and personally over the years. The reality of the situation there as the attack unfolded is such that I would not have engaged even when I was a police officer.

The attack took place in the middle of a dynamic crowd and the risk of hitting an innocent bystander would have been very high. (You're trained, if you have any training, to always be aware of the backdrop before you engage.) The surging crowds, the speed with which it unfolded, that lack of any clear line of fire, the high risk of shooting at/into a moving vehicle. Just don't do it.

As for the evil that men do. Yep, evil is always with us, in many forms and disguises.
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Old 08-14-2017, 03:02 PM   #28
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Trump just gave his "two-day's later" supposedly cleanup speech on the Charlottesville riot. He left room for the alt-right to believe that he's really with them (which he, I think, really is) and, when everyone else gives what he said analytical thought, they'll see that too. He started his speech with the "important stuff"--the economy and how he's making hay off of Obama's recovery fixes. So (signal here) he only commented on Charlottesville (eventually) because everyone was saying he had to. Then, yes, he eventually got around to saying the names of the alt-right groups, but still in there is the "the other side too" criticism.

Now, having said that's what folks from both sides will see, I'll note that I agree with him that there are organizations from both sides egging all of this on. Where I see him screwing up is in hinting of it Saturday and leaving the door open for it today without hitting the issue directly and assigning level of blame directly. (Of course, fundamentally he's the one to blame for having set the Nazis free in his campaign to begin with.)

The alt-right groups instigated this particular incident. They set up a massive demonstration in a small city and the various organizations involved advertised for weapons to be brought and to be prepared to crack heads. Although they scheduled a legal demonstration, they kicked their presence off with an illegal, highly provocative one. And they brought a threatening armed militia look to a small, university, progressive city. So, the president should have called them out--by organization name--directly on Saturday as the instigators and he should have pointed to a pattern of increased organized provocation nationwide (which, however, he enabled himself) and said it had to stop and that the DOJ was on it (meaning money taken from this type of investigation had to be returned to it).

BUT, on the other side, the Charlottesville City Council screwed up what gave the alt-right an opening to pick Charlottesville to accelerate its attacks from the right by screwing up the statue issue (not accepting its own blue ribbon commission's recommendation for middle-of-the-road disposition of the statues--two of them, one of Lee, one of Stonewall Jackson, neither of which had a connection to Charlottesville, the home of Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe, who could be targets for all of this in their own right). To add to this, the black vice mayor, who was leading the "tear down the statues" charge himself was exposed for racist and misogynist tweets and lost his school job over that, and the mayor declared Charlottesville the "resistance capital of the country" (printing a bulls eye on Charlottesville's back).

What this did was make Charlottesville the focal point that its own mayor declared it to be and brought organizations--on both sides--that were quite happy to physically fight over the matter to Charlottesville on August 11-12th (and before that, on July 8th).

It wasn't just the alt-right. It was both sides, and I think Trump would be right in saying this. He just is a real numb scull in how he's said it and has revealed that he himself is alt-right. What was needed, I think, was a direct condemnation of the alt-right groups as the instigators of this--naming the groups--and then a tail end admonition to the militant groups on the other side as engaging in provocation also.

Too late for that, though. He's already taken too long and been too revealing of himself.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:09 AM   #29
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Charlottesville Was Not a “Protest Turned Violent,” It Was a Planned Race Riot

ZENOBIA JEFFRIES | AUGUST 14, 2017

What took place was not a rally. Who wears paramilitary gear and carries automatic weapons to a rally? Who takes shields and helmets and pepper spray and bats and sticks to a rally? The car didn’t “crash” — it was driven at full speed into a crowd of counterprotesters.

What side are you on? Are you on the side that makes excuses for and sanitizes these acts and actors by calling them misunderstood Americans, the “alt” right, misguided, upset, fringe and whatever other name might diminish the outright terrorism these people are perpetrating.

Or are you on the side that calls bullshit on anti-black, anti-Native, anti-Jewish racism, bigotry and xenophobia — and the white supremacist domestic terrorists who marched on Charlottesville to shed some blood.

http://billmoyers.com/story/charlott...ned-race-riot/
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:30 PM   #30
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May 14, 2017 There was resistance to the White Nationalists in the park next to Boston Common. The demonstration was advertised as a Free Speech rally.

The Boston Police prepared for a confrontation between White Nationalists and Anti-Fascists, by keeping the group separated.

(To witnesses that watched the event, it looked as if a cosplay group was facing off with a book club.)

Until the false mask fell off of the Far Right group, and the confrontation began. This rally was not about free speech.

A 28 year old man crossed the separation zone and violently smashed his fist into the face of a teen.

April, in California, a 30 year old military-trained man punches a 20 year old, 95 pound woman, in the face.

There very well, might be a Far Right Extremist group that wants free speech rights, exclusively. There are Far Right Extremists that are using the free speech issue to bring violence to peaceful, integrated communities.

Far Right Extremists want to return to Boston, MA

A different group, from the group that held another free speech rally in Boston in May ? Boston's Mayor Walsh and Boston Police Commissioner William Evans said the group never applied for a permit.

While a permit is not needed to assemble on Boston Common, it is needed to use a stage or amplifier or to march in the streets.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/ind...on_free_s.html



Earlier Monday, the ACLU of Massachusetts said its chapter "forcefully condemns racism, white nationalism and all forms of bigotry," but that it also condemns those planning to be violent "under the guise of exercising civil liberties."


http://www.necn.com/news/new-england...440323893.html


The mayor’s office, however, says that while the group did start a permit application through the city’s public event office, that office doesn’t have authority to grant permits for events in city parks. The group would have had to obtain a permit from the city’s Department of Parks and Recreation, but no application was submitted to that department, according to the mayor’s office.


Another counter-protest, “Stand for Solidarity,” is scheduled for Saturday afternoon at the State House, across the street from the free speech rally. The protest is being organized by the Coalition to Organize and Mobilize Boston Against Trump and Answer Coalition Boston, an anti-racism group.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-ne...eking-to-rally



Black Lives Matter, Boston is convinced that the Far Right Extremists will gather in Boston on August 19, 2017

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...sroads/536748/

The events scheduled for this coming Saturday—a “free speech” rally in Boston and marches scheduled in nine cities to protest Google’s firing of an employee who wrote a screed against diversity—will help clarify where all the chaotic elements that comprise the alt-right are headed in the near-term future. (The anti-Google protests are slated for Atlanta, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Seattle, New York, Washington, Austin, Boston, and Mountain View, California.


What is the issue, that Far Right Extremist groups are gathering, to protest ? Google fired a young man that issued a (internal) memo, that crossed the line. Far Right Extremists seem to believe that was a free speech issue.

Far Right Extremist groups are losing support for their websites

Google says it's canceling the registration of neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer for violating its terms of service, after it posted an article mocking the woman who was run over and killed at a white nationalist rally in Virginia.

The site was briefly down Monday — following a move by registration company GoDaddy to also cancel the site's domain name. But after a short time it was back up, including a post from the website's publisher, Andrew Anglin, saying he had retaken control of the site. The site claimed it was briefly controlled by a member of the "Anonymous" group of hackers.


Google says it's canceling the registration of neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer for violating its terms of service, after it posted an article mocking the woman who was run over and killed at a white nationalist rally in Virginia.

The site was briefly down Monday — following a move by registration company GoDaddy to also cancel the site's domain name. But after a short time it was back up, including a post from the website's publisher, Andrew Anglin, saying he had retaken control of the site. The site claimed it was briefly controlled by a member of the "Anonymous" group of hackers.

Moving faster, and picking up speed, like a run-away train.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...tue-in-atlanta


This link provides an insight into the development of cascading events,following the murder of a woman that stood against Far Right Extremists in Charlottesville.

If you do not get the point, the car was deliberately crashed into a group that was leaving the scene of confrontation, as ordered, by the police.

There were 1,000 police, and the police could not intervene for every group of people.

A Charlottesville police officer spoke up and said he was told not to intervene when confrontations turned violent, unless he received direct orders from top police officials.


scene from the Boston Free Speech rally in May 2017

(Why does this writer leave out the scene where the big tough man punches a teenage girl in her face ? Not enough money to defend himself from a defamation charge ?)

"The cold, humid air was charged with the idea of violence in the way a strip club is charged with the idea of sex, and yet no one seemed willing to fulfill its promise. I did witness a handful of arrests, when a couple of Proud Boys crossed lines to instigate trouble, and were summarily dispatched by the police."

Police were more interested in keeping an eye on the Anti- Fascists ? The police had to protect the Pro-Fascist internet leaders, or Boston would get a black eye, for allowing "an issue" to escalate ? The issue is out in the open , now.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:53 PM   #31
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Oh, Lord, yet another rambling hodgepodge. No, I'm not going to try to read that. Several of us have asked you to stop posting this way, but you are impervious to being told your posting technique is almost unreadable.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:05 PM   #32
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Quote tag does wonders.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:38 AM   #33
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CBS Evening News, “Face the Nation” anchor John Dickerson noted that the effect of Trump’s outburst was to blame the left as opposed to shouting down the racists. The president, said Dickerson, “repeated and made worse his moral failure from Saturday.”


Via Charlottesville, the media is seeing firsthand the dangers of false equivalence. “I’m not even saying we’re nonviolent,” says a white nationalist in a Vice Media video report. “I’m saying that f–––ing we didn’t aggress. We did not initiate force against anybody. We’re not nonviolent; we’ll f–––ing kill these people if we have to.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.95f0ab604197


CBS News reporter Paula Reid was on the ground in Charlottesville during the demonstrations

"Pretty much every white supremacist demonstrator they saw had some sort of weapon, either a helmet, a shield, a firearm, a baton. As for the counter-protesters, I would say most of them were unarmed. Many of them were members of the clergy or they were students," Reid said on the "CBS Evening News."

"Now, there were certainly some people who were there as counter-demonstrators who were there to cause trouble, but overwhelmingly, the counter-protesters were unarmed," she continued.

According to Reid, it was also clear that most of the objects being thrown into the crowd of counter-demonstrators were coming from the park containing Robert E. Lee's statue, which the white supremacists had been holding throughout the day.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/analysi...sides-remarks/

Trump said-

"I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists,” Trump said. “They should be condemned totally. You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. The press has treated them absolutely unfairly.”

/end Trump speech


David A. Graham

How, precisely, had the press treated them unfairly? Apparently by lumping them in with the people they chose to march with—a mob that sported swastikas, bore white-supremacist symbols, and shouted anti-Semitic slogans. Trump argues that there were some in the crowd who disagreed with the neo-Nazis but were there to defend a statue of Robert E. Lee that the city of Charlottesville wants to remove, and thus decided to march alongside them.


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...remacy/537045/

Charlie Rose

Discussion on Charlottesville

Journalists/guests that covered White Supremacists

Charlottesville

200 White Supremacists

Anticipated disparate Alt Right groups
were organized
Veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq
highly organized

Do not like women


Massive line of men carrying torches
Animalistic chants
milataristic grunts
Anti semetic
highly emotional

Willing to show their faces in public

Aggression

Supremacists were moved to another park
Frustrated

two hours after, car killed young woman

anonymous comments from White Supremacists, after the murder

Trump at first, refused to condemn them
Trump , then, endorsed them

False equivalency

Wants to radicalize more people.
Anonymous on internet/ KKK Hoods on (hides identity from general public)
Hoods were off, at Charlottesville
No pretence about issue
They were not there for the statue
They were there to be racist and anti-semetic

"We knew there would be resistance."
"We showed our rivals."(in Charlottesville)

"She provoked her own death."

"Our rivals are stupid animals."

"They did not get out of his way."

"A lot more people are going to die."
Complete racist
New Hampshire man
Alt Right podcasts
Can raise $ 100,000.00, overnight, for their cause

Daily Stormer writer

Proud of "Torch Walk" making White Supremacist movement known.

"We will clear them off the Earth, forever."

Nazi praise for Trump

"God bless this man." (Trump)
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:12 AM   #34
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August 12, 2017

Waiting for the white nationalist protestors at the Jefferson Statue was a small contingent of counter-protesters, who circled and linked arms with their backs toward the statue. The “alt-right” marchers surrounded the counter-protesters and continued chanting until a fight broke out.

Students stood up to the White Supremacists. It was a pseudo- military operation, against university students.

Men, 190 lbs, and over, "guarding" the invasion of a university campus.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/o...ttesville.html

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article...s-march-at-uva


Sullivan says there were ‘contradictory and misleading details’

University President Teresa Sullivan said in a community email Tuesday that prior to a white supremacist torchlit march through Grounds that turned violent, members of the white nationalist “alt-right” shared “contradictory and misleading details” with the University Police Department.

Hundreds of white nationalists marched through Grounds, starting at Nameless Field, and then walking around campus to the statue of Thomas Jefferson north of the Rotunda, where they clashed with counter-protesters.

“There were contradictory and misleading details about events, locations, routes, and timing,” Sullivan said.

“The alt-right protesters did not do what they had said they were planning to do,” she added. “They did not follow the route they had indicated — along University Avenue to gather on the large open space on the north side plaza of the Rotunda — and instead traveled down McCormick Road and onto the Lawn.”

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article...torchlit-march

The University of North Carolina followed the law, as required.

A horde of invading White Supremacists lied to get what they wanted. To abuse and hurt people.

A campus church full of students, on the night the White Supremacists invaded the campus grounds. They heard the hateful chants, of men with torches outside of the church doors. The students sang loudly, but could not drown it out.

The sound of hate and evil.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:51 AM   #35
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Accurate and detailed accounts of the events, leading up to the murder of Heather Heyer


http://www.c-ville.com/stand-charlot...e-say-no-hate/

Everything, that you would expect- White Supremacist arseholes are violent and abusive to everyone, and anyone. The police protect the White Supremacist speakers.


12:02pm: Alt-right attendees march east on Market Street toward the parking garage, where many of them have parked the large white vans carrying Richard Spencer, David Enoch and former KKK imperial wizard David Duke. They’re followed by members of Black Lives Matter and antifas. When they reach the parking garage, the white nationalists chase Black Lives Matter member Dre Harris and his friends into the garage, and tear down the wooden barricades to use them as weapons. Harris lies on the ground and tries to cover his head as he is beaten.

12:11pm: Wounded Black Lives Matter member Dre Harris, whose face and white shirt is smeared with blood, is taken to the porch of NBC29 across from the garage by his friends. “Fuck Charlottesville police!” someone shouts at the group of officers stationed in front of the police department.

12:16pm: Riot gear-clad police enter the garage to escort alt-righters out.

12:17pm: “Where’s the fucking ambulance?!” shouts one of Harris’ friends to the police officers. Harris suffers a concussion, an ulnar fracture, and receives eight staples in his head, according to a GoFundMe page established in his behalf. As of August 14, it has raised more than $106,000.

12:18pm: A group of people, mostly men, heavily armed and wearing camouflage, walk quickly down Water Street. A reporter gets pushed into a wall near the Southern Environmental Law Center window as they rush by. One of them yells, “We gotta go. Go, go, go, go, go!” as they run by. A man yells at them, “Fascists get out of my town!” At this, two of the camo-clad men turn around and point their assault weapons at him. The butt of one of the guns pushes up against C-VILLE Weekly reporter Erin O’Hare’s chest for about two seconds, until they lower their arms and keep running down Water Street, toward the Pavilion.


1:40pm: James Alex Fields Jr., 20, an Ohio man and alleged Nazi romanticizer, drives a Dodge Challenger into about two dozen demonstrators on Fourth Street, killing Heather Heyer, 32, and injuring 19 others. He backs up over at least one person and speeds away. The crowd is in hysterics, and several bloodied people wait in the street for medical attention. “Somebody call a fucking ambulance,” a man screams while running away from the scene. Lost shoes and belongings are scattered everywhere.

Aftermath

4:34pm: A collective of six clergy members from various denominations kneel in front of the memorial and offer prayers for Heyer, Cullen, Bates and their families and friends.

4:36pm: A man with two small children in a stroller walks by the vigil. One of the children babbles and the dad hushes him, saying, “We have to be respectful right now.” A moment later, a group of young people walk away from the vigil and one sarcastically says, “Yeah, we’re gonna pray the Nazis away.”

4:55pm: A New York Times photojournalist asks local musician Keith Morris for a cigarette. Morris hands him an American Spirit as the reporter says he came to Charlottesville “to see the face of fascism” for himself.
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Old 08-18-2017, 02:00 AM   #36
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Let's not be naive here. Your "accurate and detailed" accounting won't be everyone's "accurate and detailed" accounting. Like any scene of chaos, what is accurate is colored by the preconceived notions of those giving you what they "saw" and experienced. Have you talked to people who were there? I have. I live in Charlottesville. I can't get the same story from people who were standing next to each other--even when they were on the same side of what they wanted to see.
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