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JAMESBJOHNSON said:

The officer must set the performance standard for the troops. In boot camp my drill instructor did everything we did, better.

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JAMESBJOHNSON said:

The officer must set the performance standard for the troops. In boot camp my drill instructor did everything we did, better.

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SuprSalor said:

Your DI was an Enlisted man.. .

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Colonel Hogan said:

The question is "how much better"? If the "performance standard for the troops" is the same standard set by an officer who has passed the CET, then it stands to reason that the average enlisted Marine, male or female - not to mention the average OC applicant, is not going to meet that standard of combat readiness.

The special ops troops in all the armed forces are trained to the highest standard of superior strength and endurance because of the specialized nature of the missions they are charged with carrying out.

Most infantry officers and non-coms lead the average infantry soldier who has graduated from boot camp. The Marine Corps seems to have created an unnecessary or inadvisable gap of "combat endurance" between enlistees and officers facing identical combat challenges in identical theaters of operation.

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Ishmael said:

Look at the day one 'cut' rates for male vs female officers. If the course is designed so that virtually everyone passes then it's rather useless as a winnowing device. And it appears that approx. 80+% of the males made the cut. Not an unreasonable figure.

As far as 'elite' troops go, the Marines are the "shock troops" of infantry battle. And that is even more so today where they are the first deployed as the tip of the spear to various trouble spots. The marines do train to a higher standard because they are the ones that are going to find themselves on foreign shores with meager support and outnumbered as well.

Given their mission and doctrine I can find no fault with their training curriculum.

Ishmael

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Ishmael said:

Look at the day one 'cut' rates for male vs female officers. If the course is designed so that virtually everyone passes then it's rather useless as a winnowing device. And it appears that approx. 80+% of the males made the cut. Not an unreasonable figure.

As far as 'elite' troops go, the Marines are the "shock troops" of infantry battle. And that is even more so today where they are the first deployed as the tip of the spear to various trouble spots. The marines do train to a higher standard because they are the ones that are going to find themselves on foreign shores with meager support and outnumbered as well.

Given their mission and doctrine I can find no fault with their training curriculum.

Ishmael

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RobDownSouth said:

Quit living in the past, old man. The Marines haven't been the "tip of the spear" since Korea.

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Colonel Hogan said:

My bad. I read right over the fact that the CET was only the first day of the overall course. In that case, 80% going on past the first day seems perfectly reasonable.

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Colonel Hogan said:

I don't quite understand why the combat skills and physical prowess of an officer need be substantially superior to an enlistee. It would seem that a good argument could be made that the officer candidates are being asked to achieve an unrealistically high standard or that the combat skills of the enlistees are marginal if not inadequate. I would be particularly concerned if the latter were true.

I would think the real value of a combat officer has far more to do with his ability to form an intelligent strategy and clearly communicate how to execute it than the number of additional push-ups he could do over and above his subordinates.

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query said:

Is that what you told yourself when the Marine recruiter sized you up and pointed down the hall to the Army recruiting office?

I didn't take it personally at the time when the Marine recruiter assessed that I would not meet their standards, much less harbor a grudge the way you do 35 years later. That must have really stung.

I've been privileged to work with a lot of Marines over the years and to a man I found them congenial, confident and well able to handle themselves. Not a one have I ever met that seemed spoiling for a fight the way you always seem to be. Did you always have that chip on our shoulder? Maybe it wasn't the weight that that recruiter was concerned about, maybe he was just a good judge of character.

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4est_4est_Gump said:

Leaders lead by example. An example of excellence compels and inspires. There is no way that you can exclude intelligence as a matter of fact from strength but if your officers are soft, the troops will become a reflection of reality no matter how smart their CO thinks she is...

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vetteman said:

Marine Corps officers and non commissioned officers lead from the front, they don't ask their Marines to do anything they themselves aren't more than capable of demonstrating themselves. Officers are expected to inspire their Marines to victory, making physical demands upon them in the process they never would have believed they were capable of, this is done by example, by being physically capable of leading men who are already some of the best conditioned in the world. It's not a job you can pretend to do, you have to convince some every tough people you have the physical ability to impose your will on them, by personal example. The most dangerous man in the world is a Marine Corps Captain with a mission.

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