Speaking of guns...

lovecraft68 said:

You make a valid point of course....but it increases your odds of defending yourself and when I mean that I'm speaking of someone breaking into your home which is the only time I could see myself actually needing to shoot someone. I'm not talking about people in the situation as your friend.

In your home you'll hear them coming (in my case anyway with the dogs) and you know your house better than they do so in that instance your chances are far better to not turn up raped, stabbed or shot or dead, than if you rely on 911, police response time and hiding in a closet.

One other note...and I am not belittling your friend in the least, but depending on the security company they work for training is minimal and of course the job is dull 99% of the time and its easy to be lulled into not paying attention.

My only point is I find it fundamentally annoying that no one should own a gun in some people's eyes because of what boils down to an incredibly small percentage of people with guns are morons.

I forgot the number, but there are millions of legally owned guns in this country and when compared to how many incidents those guns are involved in its very small. I'm talking a legal gun owner killing for a reason other than self defense, or a kid getting the gun etc...

Shooting sprees which is what the whiners usually point to are done with either illegally owned weapons or by people who have utterly lost their minds, not the average person.

Again...Connecticut....the kid stole his mother's guns after he killed her.

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LC, rj is addressing the issue of mass shootings -- which is a valid concern. But people who commit those are obviously not sane, something is seriously wrong with them.

Regarding Sandy Hook -- that brings up two very valid points. She owned guns, a lot of guns, and by all accounts she obtained them legally, and she knew how to use them.

They didn't save her life. She was killed by her own weapons.

And she was supposedly a responsible gun owner -- yet she knew her son was mentally ill, used to take him to the shooting range, and didn't restrict his access to her extensive gun collection.

What does that say about the "average, responsible" gun owner? How do we KNOW that only an incredibly small percentage of people with guns are morons? How do we know that there isn't a significant number who are careless, complacent, reckless, and just plain stupid about their guns, and every day an accident doesn't happen, it's by sheer luck?

The majority of the guns in the US are concentrated in the red states: Kentucky, Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, West Virginia, the Dakotas, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee, Oklahoma. You know, states that elect Sarah Palin as governor, or insist on teaching the Bible in science class. Or where elected officials think the drought in CA is caused by gay marriage -- gee, then I wonder what causes tornadoes through the Bible Belt?

There is a gun manufacturer that produces guns designed for children. And people buy them. In that article I linked about the 5 year old who killed his 2 year old sister with his Crickett My First Rifle he got for his birthday, Kentucky State Police Trooper Billy Gregory said young children in the area are often introduced to guns at an early age. "It's just one of those nightmares," he said, "a quick thing that happens when you turn your back. In this part of the country, it's not uncommon for a 5-year-old to have a gun or for a parent to pass one down to their kid."

That's a law enforcement officer saying it was "a quick thing that happens when you turn your back". Not, "Responsible parents don't leave a loaded gun within reach of a 5 year old and a toddler."

Remember the 9 year old little girl who accidentally shot her firing range instructor with the Uzi? She couldn't have been more supervised than she was. And it was up to the judgment of the "responsible, sensible" gun owning adults as to whether or not she could handle that weapon. Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to put an Uzi in the hands of a kid, period?

You speculated that the training from the security company was minimal, and that the security officer, at work, was lulled into not paying attention because his job was dull.

That may have been the case.

But do you actually believe that the majority of gun owners have more training than an armed security officer, or are going to be able to respond more effectively and decisively than an armed on-duty security officer in the event of an attack?

I'm not talking about you, or your level of expertise and experience. I'm talking about, say, the average gun owner in Kentucky. Who believes the world is 6000 years old, dinosaurs died out because they couldn't fit on Noah's Ark...and thinks it's normal to let a 5 year old handle a loaded gun.

Katiecat said:

What does that say about the "average, responsible" gun owner? How do we KNOW that only an incredibly small percentage of people with guns are morons? How do we know that there isn't a significant number who are careless, complacent, reckless, and just plain stupid about their guns, and every day an accident doesn't happen, it's by sheer luck?

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"A gun accidentally discharged during a wedding at New York’s famed Waldorf Astoria Hotel on Saturday, wounding four people, a police source said.

The bullet hit the floor and those wounded were hit by fragments from the round or debris from the strike, the source said.

The incident at the hotel in Midtown Manhattan took place at about 7:30 p.m. ET and is believed to have been an accident. The wounded were taken to hospitals and the injuries are not life-threatening, the source said.

The New York Post reported that the gun belonged to a wedding guest. It went off in the lobby of the hotel, run by Hilton Worldwide Holdings Inc as guests were taking photos.

A male guest was taken to a police station in handcuffs. His right trouser leg had a hole with burned edges as if the cloth had been blasted from inside by a firearm, the newspaper said.

A spokesman for the hotel did not immediately respond to a request for comment."
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It just happened a couple of hours ago in the lobby of the Waldorf Astoria. No doubt a responsible, law abiding citizen, carrying a loaded handgun to a wedding.

You have to be one chickenshit little pants wetter to carry a loaded handgun to a wedding. I'm sure the bride and groom are grateful he made everyone feel safe on their big day.

There's your "average, responsible" gun owner right there, LC. His right to play with his proxy dick in public trumps the four people injured. Good thing for them it was only an accident, right?

rj

Responsible well trained , very cautious young man 22 yrs old. Pickup truck catches fire, reaches behind seat to save his shotgun. Just this once, he forgot to put on the safety. Just this once, something behind the seat grabbed the trigger. Just this once, A young man is no more, Maybe the gun should stay locked up until he is actually using it.

In a tiny little American town a responsible gun owner keeps her guns locked in her drawer. One is an AK, one is a Glock. She knows her sons is dangerously unstable. She really should get rid of the guns, but Jack will be fine if he stays on his medication. But he doesn't. She doesn't get rid of her guns because "The Second Amend. . . .ZZZZZZZZZZZZ"

He breaks the drawer, grabs the guns, goes to the elementary school where mom works. Fires over four hundred rounds. Kills himself after killing and wounding 27.

The purpose of government is to make us do what we might not want to do but should to: "establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare. . . "

robertreams said:

The purpose of government is to make us do what we might not want to do but should to: "establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare. . . "

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Clever and perverse of the NRA gun lobby to use our Constitution (Second Amendment) against our Constitution. Government of the People for the benefit of the few.

rj

lovecraft, I love guns.. I think they are fun. I like shooting. I scored expert with my m16. I once carried a gun every day for a year. Man I wanted to shoot something, anything! I believe everyone should carry a shovel over their shoulder at all times. One never knows when one might need to dig a hole.

But if shovels accidentally killed people, or were regularly used for violence in family disputes, we would probably lock up all the shovels.

I certainly wouldn't want someone Hatecraft considered "normal" (like himself) running loose with guns, considering his history of little-boy macho angry rabid rant posting to this forum and the dark thoughts, life failures, and violence he's written to the forum about.

(OK, everybody stand back for it. )

Susan knock off the Gay bashing shit or I won't love you any more. You are getting real close to offensive here. And while i am most certainly not gay, I do not stomach racist, sexist, ageist etc. jokes or polemics or even statements. I is a vow i made ever since I sat in a diner in 63.

robertreams said:

Susan knock off the Gay bashing shit or I won't love you any more. You are getting real close to offensive here. And while i am most certainly not gay, I do not stomach racist, sexist, ageist etc. jokes or polemics or even statements. I is a vow i made ever since I sat in a diner in 63.

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Oh, did Freddie squeak?

(Did you intend to post this to another thread?)

Saxon_Hart said:

Spoken like a true douche canoe.

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What an intelligent way to contribute to the conversation. perhaps you wish to write us a definition. Exactly what is a 'douche canoe', and what does it have to do with guns?

Story about the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department:

"Reported misfires went from 12 in 2012 to 30 in 2014, the Times reports.

The increased number of accidental weapons discharge coincides with the Sheriff’s Department adopting M&P9 handguns that have a more sensitive trigger and no safety, the Times reports.

Accidents have included one deputy shooting himself in the leg while drawing his weapon, another opening fire in a bathroom stall or yet another mistakenly pulling the trigger and firing a round while looking for a suspect in a closet. While some mishaps have resulted in injuries to deputies, co-workers and the public were endangered in others."

We can assume deputies receive considerably more training and have more experience with firearms than the average gun owner who might attend NRA Comedy Traffic School.

What happens when these weapons, not only designed to kill people, but also to make it faster and easier to kill people are allowed in the hands of your average gun dork?

Well, we know what happens, but we're asked to ignore it because it's bad for business in the gun industry.

rj

All I know is that I'm stocking up on ammo because, you know, zombies.

jomar said:

All I know is that I'm stocking up on ammo because, you know, zombies.

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Life is a gamble and we all have to weigh the odds. At least you're realistic about it.

rj

"Contrary to what the gun lobby argues, personal firearms in the United States are rarely used for self-defense, a gun control advocacy group said Wednesday.

In an analysis of FBI and other federal government data, the non-profit Violence Policy Center said Americans are far more likely to hurt themselves or others when handling a lethal weapon.

In 2012, it said, only 259 “justifiable homicides” involving a private citizen were reported, compared to 8,342 criminal homicides committed with a gun.

Put another way, for every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. And that does not take into account “tens of thousands” of gun-related suicides and unintentional shootings.

The influential National Rifle Association contends that “guns are necessary for self-defence,” said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington.

“But this gun industry propaganda has no basis in fact,” he said in a statement.

“In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense.”
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And one of those justifiable homicides was the killing of Trayvon Miller for brandishing Skittles.

rj

I thought the added post today would reference the Charleston Black church shootings from last night.

Yet another legally purchased gun given by a father as a birthday present to his overtly hate-filled (and perpetually hopped up, according to statements of his high school classmates) son.

Will the last living American in this crazy gun-loving country close the door and then shoot himself when all others have senselessly been murdered in this stupid national tolerance of gun proliferation?

On the GB, Laurel has posted a photo of this morning's Charleston newspaper. Pasted over the headline on the church shooting is an advert on a gun sale.

sr71plt said:

I thought the added post today would reference the Charleston Black church shootings from last night.

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Comments in The Daily Beast account of the Charleston shooting were once again spouting the bullshit about self-defense. If only someone in that Bible group had been armed, the outcome would have been different, they say. They told me to wake up and read the statistics--an armed society is a polite society.

My post indicates that the statistics say just the opposite. Not one of these gun fetishists can produce any evidence whatsoever that what they say isn't pure lies that they are parroting from a gun lobbyist. They do it on every venue. Same stupidity to justify a fucking hobby.

"If someone in that Bible group had been armed." Jesus would be turning over in his grave if he hadn't risen from it already.

rj

rjordan said:

"If someone in that Bible group had been armed." Jesus would be turning over in his grave if he hadn't risen from it already.

rj

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If someone in the church had been armed, first, anyone having half a brain wouldn't have been in the church with them and, second, there would have been fifteen fatalities, not nine.

rjordan said:

Comments in The Daily Beast account of the Charleston shooting were once again spouting the bullshit about self-defense. If only someone in that Bible group had been armed, the outcome would have been different, they say. They told me to wake up and read the statistics--an armed society is a polite society.

My post indicates that the statistics say just the opposite. Not one of these gun fetishists can produce any evidence whatsoever that what they say isn't pure lies that they are parroting from a gun lobbyist. They do it on every venue. Same stupidity to justify a fucking hobby.

"If someone in that Bible group had been armed." Jesus would be turning over in his grave if he hadn't risen from it already.

rj

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We brits will never understand the obsession with guns and the right to carry them. Because of this I follow the discussion but try to keep a distance. However, now and again I feel I have to chip in and it mainly follows the self-defence argument.

"I need a gun to defend myself."
Who are they defending themselves against? Other people with guns.
That's an argument for gun control not against it. Gun control applies to everyone not just the good guys.
If I'm not allowed to carry a gun, nor is the guy I'm defending myself against. If he hasn't got one I don't need one. Simple isn't it.

DeYaKen said:

Simple isn't it.

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You would think so, which calls into question the mentality of those who don't "get it," especially when faced with actual instances when shooting occur and you look at the background of the one(s) who had the gun(s) and did the shooting.

rjordan said:

Comments in The Daily Beast account of the Charleston shooting were once again spouting the bullshit about self-defense. If only someone in that Bible group had been armed, the outcome would have been different, they say. They told me to wake up and read the statistics--an armed society is a polite society.

My post indicates that the statistics say just the opposite. Not one of these gun fetishists can produce any evidence whatsoever that what they say isn't pure lies that they are parroting from a gun lobbyist. They do it on every venue. Same stupidity to justify a fucking hobby.

"If someone in that Bible group had been armed." Jesus would be turning over in his grave if he hadn't risen from it already.

rj

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I don't buy that everyone should be armed all the time. I look at self defense as in, in needing to possibly defend yourself in your home. No one should need to be armed in a church and this kid is another sick friggin puppy that you anti gun fetishists is going to use as an example against the millions of non sick puppy gun owners....

Related to this tragedy, but unrelated to guns.

I love how people think god cares, nine people gunned down while at church singing his praises....with someone like that watching my back and rewarding my faith...I'll take my chances meditating at home and reading up on witchcraft.

But I know...the bible touters will say there is a lesson to be learned! These people died for a reason(what, we don't know) and it was God's plan(but never call god a murderer damn it!) maybe they were all unworthy of god's protection...yeah, that's it, it was their fault.

Again I hold to my analogy that christians are like women in abusive relationships, their abuser can do no wrong and it was always their fault

DeYaKen said:

We brits will never understand the obsession with guns and the right to carry them. Because of this I follow the discussion but try to keep a distance. However, now and again I feel I have to chip in and it mainly follows the self-defence argument.

"I need a gun to defend myself."
Who are they defending themselves against? Other people with guns.
That's an argument for gun control not against it. Gun control applies to everyone not just the good guys.
If I'm not allowed to carry a gun, nor is the guy I'm defending myself against. If he hasn't got one I don't need one. Simple isn't it.

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Very simple. Obvious, even.

The only way to attempt to explain all this is something Deep Throat said during Watergate. "Follow the money." It is almost infallible advice for understanding a lot of what happens in American politics. Whatever the situation, asking, "Who profits?" is the key to understanding what is happening.

So, who profits from every stupid statement that gun owners utter? Gun manufacturers. American, Belgian, Austrian (and more) arms manufacturers profit. They use some of their profits to make sure American decisionmakers also profit. That's the role of their primary lobbyist, the NRA. Now the decisionmakers who can stop the insanity, are among the very people who profit from it.

Then it's just a matter of sufficient propaganda to build political support for those decisionmakers. They use deepseated fears that go back hundreds of years to manipulate people. It's no surprise that we hear the same obvious falsehoods and ambiguities, almost word for word from all over the country. And those words spring up across the country almost overnight!

Some skinhead in Chicago says something about the Second Amendment one night. Within a very short time, deluded but probably harmless boneheads are repeating it on this very thread as not only true, but supported by statistics!

rj

DeYaKen said:

We brits will never understand the obsession with guns and the right to carry them. Because of this I follow the discussion but try to keep a distance. However, now and again I feel I have to chip in and it mainly follows the self-defence argument.

"I need a gun to defend myself."
Who are they defending themselves against? Other people with guns.
That's an argument for gun control not against it. Gun control applies to everyone not just the good guys.
If I'm not allowed to carry a gun, nor is the guy I'm defending myself against. If he hasn't got one I don't need one. Simple isn't it.

Click to expand...

When you make it so no one can obtain a gun illegally then you have a point. But as long as the criminals can always get them, non criminals will need them, ist that simple.

Why do you think the Police are armed? Because the people they will be arresting may be armed...

lovecraft68 said:

I don't buy that everyone should be armed all the time. I look at self defense as in, in needing to possibly defend yourself in your home. No one should need to be armed in a church and this kid is another sick friggin puppy that you anti gun fetishists is going to use as an example against the millions of non sick puppy gun owners....

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You're asking me to accept something that seems to be an oxymoron.

rj

rjordan said:

Very simple. Obvious, even.

The only way to attempt to explain all this is something Deep Throat said during Watergate. "Follow the money." It is almost infallible advice for understanding a lot of what happens in American politics. Whatever the situation, asking, "Who profits?" is the key to understanding what is happening.

So, who profits from every stupid statement that gun owners utter? Gun manufacturers. American, Belgian, Austrian (and more) arms manufacturers profit. They use some of their profits to make sure American decisionmakers also profit. That's the role of their primary lobbyist, the NRA. Now the decisionmakers who can stop the insanity, are among the very people who profit from it.

Then it's just a matter of sufficient propaganda to build political support for those decisionmakers. They use deepseated fears that go back hundreds of years to manipulate people. It's no surprise that we hear the same obvious falsehoods and ambiguities, almost word for word from all over the country. And those words spring up across the country almost overnight!

Some skinhead in Chicago says something about the Second Amendment one night. Within a very short time, deluded but probably harmless boneheads are repeating it on this very thread as not only true, but supported by statistics!

rj

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Oh you get me so hard with your self righteousness.

Know who acts like you and pilot? Soft, spoiled had it made my whole life preppies who have never seen real violence in their lives except for television.

You live in fantasy land you and all your whiny wimpy kind do as well I hope someday you're on the wrong end of a violent crimes in your own home then come back and tell all us gun fetishists how crazy we are.

People like you weaken a country and pave the way for thugs and criminals....but of course to you they only exist in Hollywood or on the news in places you would never be.

Bet the closest you've ever been to an inner city is when your GPS took you the wrong way.

Soft little crybaby you are you and that pontificating old lady pilot should hook up and have a candle light vigil....somewhere safe in a very well protected high income area of course.

You're a fucking pussy RJ a weak willed spineless little bitch. whining away about politics on an authors forum on a sex site and acting like you give a fuck about anyone but your own white bred frat boy ass.

Why don't you go out somewhere in public and shoot your mouth off? Take pilot with you.

Christ there is nothing more nauseating than the self righteous, don't liek the second amendment? Go live in another fucking country, one that has no rights or freedom. Then cry about how horrible it is to live here.

Oh, look at that...I pointed and clicked....

On ignore and suddenly this thread no longer sounds like old women or smells like pussy.

Its like we can take away the first amendment here....people on this thread should like that, because that's the next right that's lost after the second amendment falls.