What's up with Sadists? A literary request.

JaneRamsey said:

The stable boy is more than willing and if anything the mistress is reluctant at first, so don't worry it's not weird and rapey.

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seela said:

I'm not a historian, but Victorian Era, I believe, was not like ours when it comes to corporal punishment, resigning, lawsuits and calling the police on your employer.

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So ---- back to the OP's original request and trying to get off the Nezhul debate...

when I first started reading bdsm themed porn, I found a bunch of books by "Anonymous" at B. Dalton (remember that book store!?) They were all based in the Victorian era and many were based on a boarding school type theme. Wayward girls sent to a school to be disciplined in to perfection.

Something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Way-Maid-Victorian-Erotic-Classics-ebook/dp/B00P2KJAVI


Jane - I did read the story (the chapter?) you posted. For me, it was a little too fast. The daughter got in to things really quickly and the stable guy accepted things really quickly. A little more foreplay - for me - would've been more enjoyable. I hope you've found some more constructive information from others.

Since this turned into a dumpster fire....let me clarify a little more

The scene is not ready for posting yet...but here's the rundown. So everyone can calm down with the rape and lawsuits and weird whatever...


Scene opens on Victorian stable boy showing up late to work in his first week, and looking forward to being punished for screwing up.

Stable master says to wait for the lady of the house to administer his punishment because she wants to set new employees straight.

Plot twist - she sends her daughter instead telling her she's going to have to run a house someday and needs to learn to do these things herself. Two characters are totally taken by each other, she barely punishes him because she wants to go easy on him, he's excited anyways, they fool around.

End of scene - he debates being late again the next day so he can see her, turns out though she's requested he look exclusively after her horses and accompany her on trips and rides etc. Blah blah they fall in love something something.

Nezhul said:

Nah, I'm sorry but I'm not interested.
You made yourself look stupid... again.

WHY is he willing? See, for me a good story is all about not breaking suspension of disbelief. If you establish that he is willing to get punished - you need to establish how the hell did he get into that mindset? Is it, perhaps, an alternative setting where these things are common and accepted? That'd be one explanation.
But if you are shooting for a setting that is similar to our world - it would take A TON to convince me that your characters act like they do - otherwise I will only cringe. I mean, if a mistress of a house asks a girl to go and punish another person - what will ACTUALLY happen is a scandal, a resignment, shortly followed by a lawsuit for sexual harassment and then a pretty heavy fine, or even jail time for said mistress. If my boss asks me to sexually punish another employee - I'm not doing that, I'm calling police ASAP.

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For someone who doesn't want to read it you have a very strong opinion about it

JaneRamsey said:

The scene is not ready for posting yet...but here's the rundown. So everyone can calm down with the rape and lawsuits and weird whatever...


Scene opens on Victorian stable boy showing up late to work in his first week, and looking forward to being punished for screwing up.

Stable master says to wait for the lady of the house to administer his punishment because she wants to set new employees straight.

Plot twist - she sends her daughter instead telling her she's going to have to run a house someday and needs to learn to do these things herself. Two characters are totally taken by each other, she barely punishes him because she wants to go easy on him, he's excited anyways, they fool around.

End of scene - he debates being late again the next day so he can see her, turns out though she's requested he look exclusively after her horses and accompany her on trips and rides etc. Blah blah they fall in love something something.

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This sounds like a pretty good story idea, Jane. Where would we be in life without those Victorian stable boys?

Thank you!
I also agree, I'll try and slow things down a bit.

Miles Long said:

This sounds like a pretty good story idea, Jane. Where would we be in life without those Victorian stable boys?

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I don't know, but i wouldn't want to live in that world.

Thank you!

cookiecat said:

Jane - I did read the story (the chapter?) you posted. For me, it was a little too fast. The daughter got in to things really quickly and the stable guy accepted things really quickly. A little more foreplay - for me - would've been more enjoyable. I hope you've found some more constructive information from others.

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I totally agree, I'll try adding more foreplay and slowing it down a bit.
Thank you!

JaneRamsey said:

I totally agree, I'll try adding more foreplay and slowing it down a bit.
Thank you!

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I should add that "foreplay" in my world might be being teased with the crop as it runs over my body and a quick, stinging slap of the crop then rubbing it again almost sensuously over the place you just cropped with you whispering, tell me why you deserve more?

Something like that.

cookiecat said:

I should add that "foreplay" in my world might be being teased with the crop as it runs over my body and a quick, stinging slap of the crop then rubbing it again almost sensuously over the place you just cropped with you whispering, tell me why you deserve more?

Something like that.

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Ooooo that's hot...

seela said:

Yes, but my point was that the story is set in Victorian era, so your comment about how it would not be plausible in our present day world seemed a bit off.

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Oh, I somehow missed that. Anyway, if we talk about a victorian era, then I could see the girl punishing someone because she's afraid to lose her position in the house or be punished herself. Remember that at that time the society norms about sex were MUCH more uptight than now, and she'd hardly do this willingly. In fact, not a lot of girls would even agree to have sex with anyone but husband. Sure, lower rungs of society were still fucking like rabbits, but to end up as a servant in a rich house you had to be somewhat well-brought-up.

Nezhul, if the BDSM is non-consensual and the person is unwilling, how is that not rape?

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There's no such thing as non-consensual BDSM. We are talking about punishments, not BDSM here. There can be consensual punishments, that we include in a broad term of BDSM. And there can be unconsensual punishments, that are either performed by:
1) sociopaths,
2) as part of an established system (punishiments in education, or in slavery-related societies),
3) or out of fear. For example if someone puts a gun to your head, you WILL hit another person with a stick. Same goes for lesser fears like losing job/means to live, or fear of being punished yourself.

_Necrosomantic_
All you can do is throw a bunch of personal insults and hope that some of them stick enough to elevate your miserable self above me.

it comes off more like he’s speaking from experience and saying that he knows it doesn’t work on the unwilling...

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And now Mr. Freud comes to the scene and tells you what really lurks in YOUR dirty mind.
You interpret things in a twisted fashion. The fact that you saw this in my words while it didn't even cross mine and other people's minds - only speaks about YOU, not me.

He's shown a dodgy perspective on consent in the past

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Example? Consent is consent, it's either there or not. I never once said that it could be up for interpretation. Consent can be revoked at any time during the process. BUT it can't be revoked post-factum.
If you are talking about that sex cult thread - all I said there is that it is unclear how much consent was given at the moment of those things happening. It could very well be that the consent was actually there, because people are known to engage in hardcore sex activities including branding completely willingly. And sure, there are things that you may regret. But if you regret something afterwards, that doesn't automatically mean it was done against your will at the moment.
For example, a girl may regret that she had sex with that boy on a prom night, but that doesn't mean it was automatically a rape.

Nezhul said:

Oh, I somehow missed that. Anyway, if we talk about a victorian era, then I could see the girl punishing someone because she's afraid to lose her position in the house or be punished herself. Remember that at that time the society norms about sex were MUCH more uptight than now, and she'd hardly do this willingly. In fact, not a lot of girls would even agree to have sex with anyone but husband. Sure, lower rungs of society were still fucking like rabbits, but to end up as a servant in a rich house you had to be somewhat well-brought-up.

There's no such thing as non-consensual BDSM. We are talking about punishments, not BDSM here. There can be consensual punishments, that we include in a broad term of BDSM. And there can be unconsensual punishments, that are either performed by:
1) sociopaths,
2) as part of an established system (punishiments in education, or in slavery-related societies),
3) or out of fear. For example if someone puts a gun to your head, you WILL hit another person with a stick. Same goes for lesser fears like losing job/means to live, or fear of being punished yourself.

_Necrosomantic_
All you can do is throw a bunch of personal insults and hope that some of them stick enough to elevate your miserable self above me.

And now Mr. Freud comes to the scene and tells you what really lurks in YOUR dirty mind.
You interpret things in a twisted fashion. The fact that you saw this in my words while it didn't even cross mine and other people's minds - only speaks about YOU, not me.

Example? Consent is consent, it's either there or not. I never once said that it could be up for interpretation. Consent can be revoked at any time during the process. BUT it can't be revoked post-factum.
If you are talking about that sex cult thread - all I said there is that it is unclear how much consent was given at the moment of those things happening. It could very well be that the consent was actually there, because people are known to engage in hardcore sex activities including branding completely willingly. And sure, there are things that you may regret. But if you regret something afterwards, that doesn't automatically mean it was done against your will at the moment.
For example, a girl may regret that she had sex with that boy on a prom night, but that doesn't mean it was automatically a rape.

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And yet, still no comment on my actual story summary I posted only a few comments above

JaneRamsey said:

And yet, still no comment on my actual story summary I posted only a few comments above

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Word.

Good luck Jane!!!

cookiecat said:

Word.

Good luck Jane!!!

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Thank you!!

JaneRamsey said:

And yet, still no comment on my actual story summary I posted only a few comments above

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I thought my strong opinions about your story didn't interest you?

Well, OK. From the summary you've posted:
In Victorian era, if a man nailed a job serving a wealthy family, he damn-well tried his hardest to keep it. Because people like a stable boy were very much replaceable. If he showed up late, that'd be due to some unforseen circumstances.

Secondly, a Lady of a house would find distasteful even THINKING about the affairs of lower people like servants. Let alone thinking of punishing them. The stable Master would be one tasked with keeping the stable in perfect shape, and it would be HIM to punish the boy for being late. For a mistress to get involved in such unsightly affair herself would be near scandalous. But to send her DAUGHTER to actually administer the punishment? Absolutely out of the question. The daughters of fine houses were bred and grown to get married, not to do any kind of work. Any mingling with servants besides her personal maid would be considered tainting and horrible.
And even if it was a hands-on mistress, for a young girl to actually even THINK of sleeping with a stable boy would be as bad as thinking of committing mass-murder. At every step she would feel like a sinner and a betrayer of a family even for just imagining the atrocious idea of liking him. Actually going through with anything sexual? That would be literally throwing your family name into mud, possibly even pringing it to poverty in a few years, because should word get out - and it will, as soon as stable boy hits the bar and gets drunk on cheap ale - should even a RUMOR appear, it would ruin everything. Other nobles will have nothing to do with you, no self-respecting bachelor with barry you. That's how serious it is.

Oh my god. Jane! Write your story, have fun, ignore 99% of the monkey business in this thread that has nothing to do with erotic stories on Lit.

Nezhul said:

I thought my strong opinions about your story didn't interest you?

Well, OK. From the summary you've posted:
In Victorian era, if a man nailed a job serving a wealthy family, he damn-well tried his hardest to keep it. Because people like a stable boy were very much replaceable. If he showed up late, that'd be due to some unforseen circumstances.

Secondly, a Lady of a house would find distasteful even THINKING about the affairs of lower people like servants. Let alone thinking of punishing them. The stable Master would be one tasked with keeping the stable in perfect shape, and it would be HIM to punish the boy for being late. For a mistress to get involved in such unsightly affair herself would be near scandalous. But to send her DAUGHTER to actually administer the punishment? Absolutely out of the question. The daughters of fine houses were bred and grown to get married, not to do any kind of work. Any mingling with servants besides her personal maid would be considered tainting and horrible.
And even if it was a hands-on mistress, for a young girl to actually even THINK of sleeping with a stable boy would be as bad as thinking of committing mass-murder. At every step she would feel like a sinner and a betrayer of a family even for just imagining the atrocious idea of liking him. Actually going through with anything sexual? That would be literally throwing your family name into mud, possibly even pringing it to poverty in a few years, because should word get out - and it will, as soon as stable boy hits the bar and gets drunk on cheap ale - should even a RUMOR appear, it would ruin everything. Other nobles will have nothing to do with you, no self-respecting bachelor with barry you. That's how serious it is.

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Omg that was amazing. It only took a two page thread and you harassing everyone before I got your opinion on the actual forum post. Honestly though if your only complaint is that the context seems unrealistic then I think I'm off to a good start. I'm also now confused how you like anything on this site if that's the standard you're holding... If I wanted reality I would just go outside
Thank you for the critique though.

Nezhul said:

I thought my strong opinions about your story didn't interest you?

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Well for starters you were literally the first person i asked if they wanted to read my scene to give me feedback, and you flat out said you weren't interested.

Secondly after that i just started teasing you for so fervently commenting on a thread you said you had no interest in.

Thirdly you summarized the real life likelihood of my plot as your analysis...even though my original question to the forum related to writing female Sadist characters.

So I dunno, we can keep playing this game if you want you Do seem to like dominating threads and then pretending you're not that interested only after you've trashed everyone's opinions.

It only took a two page thread and you harassing everyone

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Say what? I gave you feedback from the start. Several times.
And I was not the one who started a page-long discussion of how Nezhul justifies rape even if he specifically puts a line between consensual punishment and not.

You are salty because I find your idea is unrealistic and breaks the suspension of disbelief. Sorry - if you wanted only praise, then you shouldn't have asked for feedback. I personally DON'T think you are off to a good start, because your idea is all about unrealistic characters that do strange and stupid things - but it's not a comedy or pantamime, it tries to keep a serious vibe.

As I said before, these types of things cause only cringe. And not because I have some special type of taste, but because everyone feels that way.

I second what another poster had said - if you try to write about something that you aren't personally into - you end up with 50 Shades of Grey that causes people who are in-the-know almost physical pain.
Only difference is that 50 shades got BDSM aspect wrong, and so very few people were in-the-know. You are getting historical setting and atmosphere wrong, as well as basic human behavior, and that is something that 99% of people will notice.

Nezhul said:

Say what? I gave you feedback from the start. Several times.
And I was not the one who started a page-long discussion of how Nezhul justifies rape even if he specifically puts a line between consensual punishment and not.

You are salty because I find your idea is unrealistic and breaks the suspension of disbelief. Sorry - if you wanted only praise, then you shouldn't have asked for feedback. I personally DON'T think you are off to a good start, because your idea is all about unrealistic characters that do strange and stupid things - but it's not a comedy or pantamime, it tries to keep a serious vibe.

As I said before, these types of things cause only cringe. And not because I have some special type of taste, but because everyone feels that way.

I second what another poster had said - if you try to write about something that you aren't personally into - you end up with 50 Shades of Grey that causes people who are in-the-know almost physical pain.
Only difference is that 50 shades got BDSM aspect wrong, and so very few people were in-the-know. You are getting historical setting and atmosphere wrong, as well as basic human behavior, and that is something that 99% of people will notice.

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I thought all the smiley faces in my posts would have tipped you off to the lack of salt or sand here

Sorry if you're getting so triggered over this. It's just a writing exercise I want to try, I'm not publishing the next big literary expose.

cookiecat said:

Oh my god. Jane! Write your story, have fun, ignore 99% of the monkey business in this thread that has nothing to do with erotic stories on Lit.

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Yes. That's why 99% of the stories on Lit suck and will never even step close to the quality needed to be actually published and sold.

One thing is to make literature, the other is to have a word diarrhea. If one is inclined to follow your advice and live in blissful ignorance - then why the hell would one create a thread on forums anyway? It's about self-improvement and gain of perspective, which isn't really done through blind praise and baseless encouragement. It's done through criticism and pointing at the shortcomings of your story.

Nezhul said:

Yes. That's why 99% of the stories on Lit suck and will never even step close to the quality needed to be actually published and sold.

One thing is to make literature, the other is to have a word diarrhea. If one is inclined to follow your advice and live in blissful ignorance - then why the hell would one create a thread on forums anyway? It's about self-improvement and gain of perspective, which isn't really done through blind praise and baseless encouragement. It's done through criticism and pointing at the shortcomings of your story.

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Calm down.

Nezhul said:

Yes. That's why 99% of the stories on Lit suck and will never even step close to the quality needed to be actually published and sold.

One thing is to make literature, the other is to have a word diarrhea. If one is inclined to follow your advice and live in blissful ignorance - then why the hell would one create a thread on forums anyway? It's about self-improvement and gain of perspective, which isn't really done through blind praise and baseless encouragement. It's done through criticism and pointing at the shortcomings of your story.

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So I was right, you do hate everything on here lolol...

Also I find your sentiment of self empowerment a little dishonest as you flat out refused to even look at the scene, but still somehow managed to write a critique with more words in it than my actual story. Unlike many of the people on this thread that DMed me to read it and gave me constructive criticism related to the actual scene.

I also am by no means ever going to try and get this published, I plan on it being a handful of scenes 10-20K tops and I'm only writing it just to see if I can.

So thank you to everyone who took the time to read it over and give me feedback. It'll still be a while till it's done enough to post but I'll let you all know when.

JaneRamsey said:

So I was right, you do hate everything on here lolol...

Also I find your sentiment of self empowerment a little dishonest as you flat out refused to even look at the scene, but still somehow managed to write a critique with more words in it than my actual story. Unlike many of the people on this thread that DMed me to read it and gave me constructive criticism related to the actual scene.

I also am by no means ever going to try and get this published, I plan on it being a handful of scenes 10-20K tops and I'm only writing it just to see if I can.

So thank you to everyone who took the time to read it over and give me feedback. It'll still be a while till it's done enough to post but I'll let you all know when.

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To JaneRamsey,
Well, I for one, wish you good luck. I probably couldn't edit or write my way out of a paper sack but I appreciate you giving it a try. If it doesn't work, so what? You are out a little time and had some fun in fantasy world. Go for it, girl!
Woody

wooodyme said:

To JaneRamsey,
Well, I for one, wish you good luck. I probably couldn't edit or write my way out of a paper sack but I appreciate you giving it a try. If it doesn't work, so what? You are out a little time and had some fun in fantasy world. Go for it, girl!
Woody

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Thank you! With some help from a few people one this thread me and mei5ster are co writing a mini series. We did change the scenario though..now it's the same premise, but backstage at The Globe Theatre in London .

JaneRamsey said:

Thank you! With some help from a few people one this thread me and mei5ster are co writing a mini series. We did change the scenario though..now it's the same premise, but backstage at The Globe Theatre in London .

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I think I’m being whipped into action here, which is a not something I’m used to!

Now where did I stick my quill...