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Old 02-14-2019, 01:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valint View Post
Short version?

Imagine that, in the Non-consent section, two popular story sub-genres were "Man has sex with a woman with dubious consent, then either faces the consequence of his actions or has a change of heart and ends up in a loving, consensual relationship with her" and "Man has sex with a woman with dubious consent, then kills her and dismembers her corpse, with the process described in loving detail".

Oh, and sometimes you wouldn't know which kind of story you were reading until page 3 of the 4th chapter.

You'd end up with a lot of angry comments from people who were fundamentally repulsed by the story they were reading and wanted to share their negative feeling with you, and "Hey, that's my fetish" or "But that fits with the category's description!" probably wouldn't cut it.

On a pretty basic level, LW is a struggle between people who want to read interesting stories that involve extra-marital sex (often as a source of conflict in the story), and people who want to masturbate to particular fetishes.

Longer version?

Porn-without-plot "stories" that have no purpose beyond masturbatory fodder for someone who precisely shares your kinks is going to get a poor reception in LW, especially the further to the end of the swinging -> sharing -> cuckoldry spectrum you go and the smaller the audience who shares your specific kinks is.

Masturbatory fodder with a BDSM focus (especially hardcore emotional sadomasochism), which has male/male content, or which is focused on a specific fetish, is likely to get savaged, because Lit has categories for those things, and it's not LW, so (a) a large chunk of the LW audience isn't looking for those things and may or may not be actively repulsed by them, and (b) the people who are looking for those things aren't necessarily reading LW.

The more a story comes off as a cry for help, the more of a negative reaction you'll receive. If, to someone who doesn't share your fetish, the story reads like a husband trapped in an abusive relationship with a sociopath who is, at best, mildly fond of the husband she has no respect for, while he's turning to the reader and saying "Suffering shows how much you love someone, right? Deep down, we have something special, don't we?", then you're going to get negative feedback from people who have sufficiently bought into your work on a narrative level that they sympathize with your characters, but whose reaction (since they don't share your fetish) is orthogonal to what you were going for.

If your work is a thinly-veiled essay on how (a) white men are inferior beings fit only to work to support their wives and those wives' black lovers, (b) women are naturally more sexual beings then men, so the natural order is for wives to take lovers, and/or (c) the truest form of love is a master/slave relationship in which the slave-husband takes his rightful place sucking his wife's lovers' cocks (posted outside of BDSM), then you will receive comments that are not-so-thinly-veiled essays on how you're full of shit.

Stories that are actual stories will do varying degrees of well in LW.

Yeah, you'll probably get negative feedback no matter what you do, since LW has a more-engaged readership than other categories. However, if you have a plot and characters that make sense, a higher percentage of the negative feedback will be less "This story is a piece of shit" and more "This story is secretly a tragedy, because the natural consequences of the actions in this story would be X, Y and Z" and "I disagree with the actions the character chose to take on a personal level" sort of things... which, honestly, I'd consider to be gratifying as an author, because they're implicitly buying into the reality of your work and engaging with it on a narrative level at that point.

I don't agree with this at all. I think this misses the point completely.

Stories in which husbands share their wives with others automatically get viciously criticized and downgraded by a large contingent of LW readers regardless of how well they are written, or whether they have elements of BDSM, or fetishes, or any of the other things you discuss. None of that matters. All that matters to these readers is that they can't stand to read a story in which a wife has sex outside marriage and it's portrayed as a positive experience. That's it. It's that simple. The comments on stories and the data concerning how stories score in this category prove that. Your answer avoids this truth. As KeithD pointed out, even stories recognized for their excellence get far lower ratings in the LW category than in any other category. LW readers are, on the whole, not more discriminating, but less. A sizeable number of them downvote certain kinds of stories in a knee-jerk way.

The assumption underlying your viewpoint appears to be that wife-sharing can never be a positive experience. That's simply not true. Perhaps it is not in many cases, but in some it is. It may not be your cup of tea, but it's presumptuous and false to suggest that stories that depict wife-sharing positively get downvoted because their authors refuse to acknowledge that "the natural consequences of the actions in this story would be X, Y and Z." The reality of sex is too complex to be able to say that with any confidence.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
I would think that the story parameters to "Loving Wives" means essentially that. There should not be any cheating of any kind for these characters, even if essentially the wife is doing this stuff for her husband. But if you make a story about the wife getting BDSMed by another dude and she is enjoying such things, you're treading on very thin ice.
But Laurel, as site owner and editor, has provided what the parameters are for Loving Wives, and they quite clearly don't agree with yours: "Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more."
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:42 PM   #28
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
But Laurel, as site owner and editor, has provided what the parameters are for Loving Wives, and they quite clearly don't agree with yours: "Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more."
"And more" provides a honey trap to ensnare angry, damaged readers, leaving the rest of the site relatively uninfected. Whew. Many LW stories could easily fit other categories but others have nowhere to go but LW. A bull in threeways with two hot wives is Group -- but their neurotic high-status husbands are in a closet, tied together, watching through a one-way mirror, waiting for the bull to spew semen into their mouths when the mirror slides open. That's LW.
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithD View Post
But Laurel, as site owner and editor, has provided what the parameters are for Loving Wives, and they quite clearly don't agree with yours: "Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more."
You 'know what? It really does not matter what Laurel's interpretations of the subject are. The readers are the people who read these stories and review them. A loving wife does not cheat with another man, does not participate in partner sharing, does not enjoy anything that does not pertain to her husband. That's why if you write something like that, It's not believable that the wife is anything other than loving. If anything, the reader (most likely a dude but who knows) feels betrayed, hurt by the wife's actions and liable to come away from the story feeling upset. Hence- bad reviews. Simply put: Do not place cheating into these stories.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:00 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
You 'know what? It really does not matter what Laurel's interpretations of the subject are.
Well, yes it does. She provides the standards here. And she has the authority to give the standards. She did on LW and they contradicted what you asserted those standards are. Yes, readers can have their own preferences, but the standards are what Laurel provides. If you assert that something doesn't belong in LW, as you did, that falls within the given standards, you are just wrong.

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Old 02-14-2019, 04:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
A loving wife does not cheat with another man, does not participate in partner sharing, does not enjoy anything that does not pertain to her husband. That's why if you write something like that, It's not believable that the wife is anything other than loving. If anything, the reader (most likely a dude but who knows) feels betrayed, hurt by the wife's actions and liable to come away from the story feeling upset.
Loving Wives = Irony, tongue in cheek. They're wives loving everyone in sight.

Husbands/Wives = Compersion

Compersion = The feeling of joy associated with seeing a loved one love another; contrasted with jealousy.

Compersion occurs in about 5% of the male population. It occurs in women too.

If you have the emotion you understand the stories. If not, you can't believe...

There's an old swinger saying: Women have to be dragged into swinging and then dragged out.

It's an interesting evolution to see them go from wallflower to aggressor.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
You 'know what? It really does not matter what Laurel's interpretations of the subject are. The readers are the people who read these stories and review them. A loving wife does not cheat with another man, does not participate in partner sharing, does not enjoy anything that does not pertain to her husband. That's why if you write something like that, It's not believable that the wife is anything other than loving. If anything, the reader (most likely a dude but who knows) feels betrayed, hurt by the wife's actions and liable to come away from the story feeling upset. Hence- bad reviews. Simply put: Do not place cheating into these stories.
This is your personal opinion, but it's not reality. Yes, there are people who have loving relationships in which wife-sharing activity takes place. Yes, the wives are loving. You can define things however you like, but what you are saying isn't reality. The reality with sexuality is that there's an almost infinite variety of different preferences and relationships people enjoy, but there's a group of LW readers that cannot accept that reality. People do things sexually that are distasteful to others, but it doesn't mean they are without love.

The other reality you ignore is it's not just Laurel -- there's a huge audience of readers who love wife-sharing stories, and that's primarily what this category is about, despite its odd title. That audience probably is the predominant audience in this category, but it is much less vociferous and its votes are diminished by the 1 bombs from the anti-extramarital crowd. You are not the majority, and your perspective denies reality.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can come to an erotic story site, indulge their own kinks and fetishes, yet also seek to impose their own morality on others. Isn't this precisely the place to leave moralizing behind?
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:44 PM   #34
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Then the whole topic should be changed to "Cheating" because nothing about the subject screams "loving" to me. There is a difference in passionate lovemaking and simple sex. So as the lines are decidedly blurred, it is understandable that people will leave bad reviews.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonDoom View Post

It never ceases to amaze me that people can come to an erotic story site, indulge their own kinks and fetishes, yet also seek to impose their own morality on others. Isn't this precisely the place to leave moralizing behind?
Amen.
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:14 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
Then the whole topic should be changed to "Cheating" because nothing about the subject screams "loving" to me. There is a difference in passionate lovemaking and simple sex. So as the lines are decidedly blurred, it is understandable that people will leave bad reviews.
A very good point
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:19 PM   #37
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A very good point
Well, yes, but it won't be. And it were changed, it wouldn't stop the commenting as it is now. The explanation the Web site gives it clearly identifies it already as meant to be cheating stories.
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:25 PM   #38
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I think your but now you can't comment on stories, and when you give direct comments to the author, you never know if they received them I always give good comments because authors deserve that for giving us their stories to read
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:30 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
Then the whole topic should be changed to "Cheating" because nothing about the subject screams "loving" to me. There is a difference in passionate lovemaking and simple sex. So as the lines are decidedly blurred, it is understandable that people will leave bad reviews.
Only sharing, swinging, open relationships, cuckholdry, nothing of that is cheating for the persons/characters involved. Yes, even while any of it likely would be cheating in a "traditional" closed monogamous heterosexual relationship. What's cheating can only be defined within any given specific relationship as it have everything to do with principles, borders, trust and consent, and very little with a list of specific activities.
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:30 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
Then the whole topic should be changed to "Cheating" because nothing about the subject screams "loving" to me. There is a difference in passionate lovemaking and simple sex. So as the lines are decidedly blurred, it is understandable that people will leave bad reviews.
Sure, the title sucks, but if you've read stories on this site for more than a day you know what the category is about and what stories you'll find there, so the title isn't something to get worked up about. No experienced reader of LW stories can pretend for a second to be surprised by what he/she finds there.
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:41 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by OmnislashXX View Post
Then the whole topic should be changed to "Cheating" because nothing about the subject screams "loving" to me. There is a difference in passionate lovemaking and simple sex.
Like the T Shirt says, 'It isn't cheating if he watches'.
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:45 PM   #42
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A big part of the drama in that category seems to be driven by the dysfunctional relationship between two groups of people addicted to corresponding negative emotions.

On the one hand, you've got the humiliation addicts. They get off on writing cuckold stories and casting them before a hostile audience.

On the other hand, you've got the outrage addicts. They get off on reading the aforementioned stories and getting really, really angry about them.

The two groups need each other. Unfortunately, they drag everyone else who wades into that category down into their toxic mire.

However, I think a lot of the stories in that category are probably just troll-bait, by authors who like poking the hornet's nest. And a lot of the outrage by readers is also probably fake. So, the category ends up being a lot of trolls trolling trolls.
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:51 PM   #43
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I posted an early story there because, silly me, I assumed a story about a loving wife should go in Loving Wives. At the time, I hadnít yet become active in the AH.

The comments I got were... concerning. Now I know better. So, even if my stories would fit in LW, I donít put them there because I get nothing of value out of the feedback there.
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Old 02-14-2019, 05:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoolyWorm View Post
A big part of the drama in that category seems to be driven by the dysfunctional relationship between two groups of people addicted to corresponding negative emotions.

On the one hand, you've got the humiliation addicts. They get off on writing cuckold stories and casting them before a hostile audience.

On the other hand, you've got the outrage addicts. They get off on reading the aforementioned stories and getting really, really angry about them.

The two groups need each other. Unfortunately, they drag everyone else who wades into that category down into their toxic mire.

However, I think a lot of the stories in that category are probably just troll-bait, by authors who like poking the hornet's nest. And a lot of the outrage by readers is also probably fake. So, the category ends up being a lot of trolls trolling trolls.
Sorry but you've missed a whole lot of people in your description. The cuck/humiliation kind of stories and readers are the minority. Cheating and BTB are the majority. Reconciliation minded are somewhere in between.

The deluge of cuck stories of late has developed over the last couple of years. Maybe they all got out of prison at the same time
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:29 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoolyWorm View Post
A big part of the drama in that category seems to be driven by the dysfunctional relationship between two groups of people addicted to corresponding negative emotions.

On the one hand, you've got the humiliation addicts. They get off on writing cuckold stories and casting them before a hostile audience.

On the other hand, you've got the outrage addicts. They get off on reading the aforementioned stories and getting really, really angry about them.

The two groups need each other. Unfortunately, they drag everyone else who wades into that category down into their toxic mire.

However, I think a lot of the stories in that category are probably just troll-bait, by authors who like poking the hornet's nest. And a lot of the outrage by readers is also probably fake. So, the category ends up being a lot of trolls trolling trolls.
I don't think many people actually submit stories with the goal of provoking others. I think this is a delusion fostered by the anti-cuck crowd, who seem to take it personally that others dare to post stories they don't like. Many people genuinely like cuckold stories, and this is the category for them, as is obvious from the category description and custom developed over many years. The trolling is entirely on the other side.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:41 PM   #46
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I post in LW for the comments

That group is merciless in pointing out inconsistencies in the story and grammar. I appreciate it. LW is where I can post and get feedback to make corrections. None of my stories the have that sexy red H. The only time I've ever gotten one, was posting outside that category.

You have to have a thick skin to post there. No story ever will get universal acclaim in the comments. It can be very unfriendly, but then again, all my contacts on Lit I met there. We're like soldiers that bonded through the shared experience of combat.
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Old 02-14-2019, 08:11 PM   #47
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Oh no, the anti-cuck camp are hardly the only aggressors. Stories where the wife is caught and suffers any sort of consequences are roundly destroyed as well. Those are the only stories the anti-cuck crowd find believable, and you'll frequently find them praising the bitch getting what she deserves. The hailstorm of 1-bombs, insults, and death threats are coming from the other camps in that case.

The bulk of the readership in the category doesn't believe that the other camps' stories belong in the category, and they're determined to chase every author that writes that type of story out of the category. No matter where it may have started, they've all been radicalized by each other now, and they've all cranked their efforts up to 11.

They'll actively stalk authors, and even other readers who make comments. There was a voracious commentator known as DWornock ( or something like that ) a couple of years back who looked as if he was starting on page 1 of the category and making his way through the entire catalog. When he got to mine, each one in turn saw a massive surge of activity despite being relatively off the radar for years.

There was a large group of other readers stalking the comment portal and descending on every story he left a comment on ó in both support and opposition to his comments. Almost every one of them mentioned his name, so the comment portal would point out the stories to their brethren even once his actual comment got pushed off the portal.

I got five or six new comments, dozens of votes, and thousands of views in a single day on stories that had been out for 3-4 years. By the next day, it was back to normal as the hordes moved on to whatever story he'd commented on next.

Quote:
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I don't think many people actually submit stories with the goal of provoking others. I think this is a delusion fostered by the anti-cuck crowd, who seem to take it personally that others dare to post stories they don't like. Many people genuinely like cuckold stories, and this is the category for them, as is obvious from the category description and custom developed over many years. The trolling is entirely on the other side.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:11 PM   #48
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Quote:
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Amen.
X 240,000,000.

It was such an eye opener for me, many years ago, to read the comments and realise there were people in this world holding so much hatred for women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voboy View Post
I posted an early story there because, silly me, I assumed a story about a loving wife should go in Loving Wives. At the time, I hadnít yet become active in the AH.

The comments I got were... concerning. Now I know better. So, even if my stories would fit in LW, I donít put them there because I get nothing of value out of the feedback there.
Made I laff.

Is that really right about the feedback? Loads of comments but nothing you can use constructively?

My April Fool's story has a LW theme, but I'm unsure about how hardcore I'm going to go. It's a bit nasty in places.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:19 PM   #49
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They don't care for true stories either...

My husband wrote of our last hotwife date. Most that have contacted him tell him it's a good first effort on here. He reads and knows the schizo audience there but I guess he's a glutton for pain.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:25 PM   #50
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I've seen LW tales of monogamous couples telling their life stories. No cheating, swapping, cucking, none of that. I wrote a high-scoring LW tale with divine BtB -- the cheaters were swept away in a mudslide. I wrote low-scoring LW tales where the cheating wife gets away with infidelity, and another where a pastor's wife makes a moral choice to cheat.

Hint: See how high-scoring LW pieces work. If successful authors can pander, so can you.
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