Mary and Alvin

MelissaBaby

Wordy Bitch
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I started writing seriously last year. I wrote stories as a young girl, but fell out of it as I grew.

I began writing about my life experiences as means of catharsis and did so successfully from my perspective. I am pleased that My Fall and Rise received a very positive response from readers on Lit.

I had no plans to start another project, but by the time I had finished the last chapter of MFAR, I knew I wanted to keep writing.

I had written about extreme subjects; drug abuse, crime, imprisonment. But my life had changed. Speaking with a friend, I mentioned that I was learning just how much drama there was in the everyday comings and goings of "ordinary" people. That thought became the genesis of Mary and Alvin.

I decided to just create two characters and follow the course of their lives together. I am finding it very enjoyable to create and tell their tale. Mary is a big city California girl transplanted to a small town on the coast of Maine, where she meets Alvin, a native Mainer. He is a widower, almost 20 years her senior.

But Mary and Alvin is actually meant to be two love stories, that of the title characters and another, my own with my native state of Maine, which I truly love and deeply miss.

I don't know how long the story will go, but I have it outlined for at least twenty chapters.

I would be glad to answer any questions and welcome any critique from readers.
 
* The beginning of the story is not written from the point of view of someone from California riding around Maine for the first time. That person would view California as "correct" and would be looking at differences in Maine as negatives. California has beaches and trees. Mary would view thinking about putting on jeans on Memorial Day as "wrong". She'd look at the beach and find it pathetic compared to the beach back home. When riding through the woods, she'd compare them to the woods in California
* I found Alvin asked her out way too quick. She's at his business five minutes and a much older guy is asking her out? She seems to politely brush him off and he doesn't take no for an answer. Creepy, creepy
* What I would have done is when Alvin turned her down for kayaking, have Alvin said he feels terrible about it - he'll buy her lunch and hopefully while they're eating someone will come along to rent a kayak and Mary could go out with them. Alvin knows it's unlikely, but it'll give him a chance to talk to Mary. Then at the end of lunch, Alvin suggests they go out sailing
* >>>He looked at her long legs. He wanted to touch them, to part them, to lower himself between them.<<< - creepy! A 47-year-old shouldn't be so lustful about a girl he just met
* >>>"Wait till you meet them, you'll see why." Mary took notice that he was already assuming that she would meet his daughters.<<< - way too fast!
* I'd put "* * * *" on a line before "Mary walked from her apartment to the wharf" to indicate a scene change
* Things move much too fast for me. She's too easily wowed by Alvin. It's not a question of "Will they get together?", it's a question of "How many more words until they're fucking?"

Edit:
* Mary has almost no personalty. She's from Southern California and she's good-looking - I can't think of another trait for her. And being from Southern California is a weak trait as she doesn't look at things from a Southern California perspective
* There's no conflict in the story so far. There's nothing to the story arc beyond they meet, they quickly fall for each other and fuck. Why would someone read chapter 2?
 
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* The beginning of the story is not written from the point of view of someone from California riding around Maine for the first time. That person would view California as "correct" and would be looking at differences in Maine as negatives. California has beaches and trees. Mary would view thinking about putting on jeans on Memorial Day as "wrong". She'd look at the beach and find it pathetic compared to the beach back home. When riding through the woods, she'd compare them to the woods in California
* I found Alvin asked her out way too quick. She's at his business five minutes and a much older guy is asking her out? She seems to politely brush him off and he doesn't take no for an answer. Creepy, creepy
* What I would have done is when Alvin turned her down for kayaking, have Alvin said he feels terrible about it - he'll buy her lunch and hopefully while they're eating someone will come along to rent a kayak and Mary could go out with them. Alvin knows it's unlikely, but it'll give him a chance to talk to Mary. Then at the end of lunch, Alvin suggests they go out sailing
* >>>He looked at her long legs. He wanted to touch them, to part them, to lower himself between them.<<< - creepy! A 47-year-old shouldn't be so lustful about a girl he just met
* >>>"Wait till you meet them, you'll see why." Mary took notice that he was already assuming that she would meet his daughters.<<< - way too fast!
* I'd put "* * * *" on a line before "Mary walked from her apartment to the wharf" to indicate a scene change
* Things move much too fast for me. She's too easily wowed by Alvin. It's not a question of "Will they get together?", it's a question of "How many more words until they're fucking?"

Edit:
* Mary has almost no personalty. She's from Southern California and she's good-looking - I can't think of another trait for her. And being from Southern California is a weak trait as she doesn't look at things from a Southern California perspective
* There's no conflict in the story so far. There's nothing to the story arc beyond they meet, they quickly fall for each other and fuck. Why would someone read chapter 2?

Thank you for your critique.

On the issue of the relationship developing too fast, I had hoped to convey more clearly that both characters were behaving in a manner that was unusual for them. Others have made the same point about the pace of the development, so clearly, I was not as successful at that as I had hoped.
 
One of the things that is hardest to do in a story is have someone act in a way that is unusual for them. Readers will accept what you tell them as gospel.

Fiction always has an element of suspended disbelief to it. Readers will accept magic, technology that doesn't exist, and history that did not happen if you present it to them as the truth of your world. Consequently, If you write that a character performs x, y, and z actions out of the gate, the reader will internalize that as "X, y, and z are normal actions for this character." Trying to go back later and say "No no no. Mary usually does a, b, and c! She's never gone past k before! This is new to her!" usually falls flat.

You have to establish normal before you can break from it.
 
One of the things that is hardest to do in a story is have someone act in a way that is unusual for them. Readers will accept what you tell them as gospel.

Fiction always has an element of suspended disbelief to it. Readers will accept magic, technology that doesn't exist, and history that did not happen if you present it to them as the truth of your world. Consequently, If you write that a character performs x, y, and z actions out of the gate, the reader will internalize that as "X, y, and z are normal actions for this character." Trying to go back later and say "No no no. Mary usually does a, b, and c! She's never gone past k before! This is new to her!" usually falls flat.

You have to establish normal before you can break from it.

Excellent point, thank you. I thought that Mary actually saying in advance that she was about to do something she had never done before was sufficient, but perhaps it was not for some readers.

On the other hand, I think I am willing to stand by the notion that men in their forties do have lustful thoughts about women in their twenties and there is nothing unusual about that.
 
On the other hand, I think I am willing to stand by the notion that men in their forties do have lustful thoughts about women in their twenties and there is nothing unusual about that.

Of course they do. Whilst 8letters might be creeped out by the notion, that just means he's not 47 yet.
 
This is not a "for some readers" or "men in their late 40's" problem. You wouldn't establish inner conflict by making Tom have gay sex with Jim while saying out loud "I'm straight I'm straight I'm straight" out loud the whole time.

It's a pacing problem.
 
After reading the thread, I went away and read the story; and yes, it's a love song for your "place". I don't know Maine (I don't know America other than twice - amusingly, Southern California, where all I could think was, why? A horrible place) but your word pictures are delightful. The whole town "pops" off the page. Lovely writing.

I had no issues with Alvin's immediate appreciation of Mary's long legs - nothing sexier than a girl on a bike - but for me (having written a similar older man/younger woman encounter) I agree with your other commenters - a slow burn over summer might have worked better. Noticing each other "slowly", both knowing they'd fallen early.

What did throw me out of the story, though, about half way down the second page - there are two sentences, one for each of them, where the narrator gives us their future, both looking back on the moment. At that point, any wonder of "what will happen" was gone from the story. My view only - you either look backwards knowing everything, or look forward knowing nothing at all.

Setting that aside, there's some lovely observational stuff here. Alvin is rounded as a character, Mary less so. But the story's not about them, not really, it's about the place. It's vital to give a sense of place, I think, however light - this is a portrait, lovingly painted. I don't know Maine, but you give a sense of it.
 
This is not a "for some readers" or "men in their late 40's" problem. You wouldn't establish inner conflict by making Tom have gay sex with Jim while saying out loud "I'm straight I'm straight I'm straight" out loud the whole time.

It's a pacing problem.

I appreciate your comments, but I am not sure I am following this train of thought.

This is meant to be a long form, perhaps a very long form, work. Subsequent chapters include flashbacks that show us the paths Mary and Alvin took to arrive at their meeting. I hope readers will stay with the story and gain greater understanding of the characters as they go along.
 
After reading the thread, I went away and read the story; and yes, it's a love song for your "place". I don't know Maine (I don't know America other than twice - amusingly, Southern California, where all I could think was, why? A horrible place) but your word pictures are delightful. The whole town "pops" off the page. Lovely writing.

I had no issues with Alvin's immediate appreciation of Mary's long legs - nothing sexier than a girl on a bike - but for me (having written a similar older man/younger woman encounter) I agree with your other commenters - a slow burn over summer might have worked better. Noticing each other "slowly", both knowing they'd fallen early.

What did throw me out of the story, though, about half way down the second page - there are two sentences, one for each of them, where the narrator gives us their future, both looking back on the moment. At that point, any wonder of "what will happen" was gone from the story. My view only - you either look backwards knowing everything, or look forward knowing nothing at all.

Setting that aside, there's some lovely observational stuff here. Alvin is rounded as a character, Mary less so. But the story's not about them, not really, it's about the place. It's vital to give a sense of place, I think, however light - this is a portrait, lovingly painted. I don't know Maine, but you give a sense of it.

Thank you very much. I appreciate the praise, and the more critical observations. Your comment about looking forward/looking backward is particularly helpful.

Some of my difficulty in fleshing out Mary has been that I am writing, to some extent, a city mouse/country mouse tale, and as a country mouse myself, it isn't always easy to get into the city mouse's head.

I am lucky to have grown up in a place with such a distinct character. Thank you.
 
This is meant to be a long form, perhaps a very long form, work. Subsequent chapters include flashbacks that show us the paths Mary and Alvin took to arrive at their meeting. I hope readers will stay with the story and gain greater understanding of the characters as they go along.

Flashbacks are a give-up in fiction. That is you saying "I can't fit all of my story within my story, so here's a bunch of information I didn't have room for."

You shortchanged your setup. Fixing it by going in the wrong direction is not better. It's the metaphorical equivalent of taking three lefts instead of taking one right.
 
Flashbacks are a give-up in fiction. That is you saying "I can't fit all of my story within my story, so here's a bunch of information I didn't have room for."

You shortchanged your setup. Fixing it by going in the wrong direction is not better. It's the metaphorical equivalent of taking three lefts instead of taking one right.

I appreciate your perspective, but I don't agree. There is no element of "fixing" anything involved, it was always planned as a non-linear narrative.
 
On the other hand, I think I am willing to stand by the notion that men in their forties do have lustful thoughts about women in their twenties and there is nothing unusual about that.
Do you want me to explain why I think it's usual? I've hammered on your story enough.
 
I've read the first chapter only, so far. I don't know if this is going to be helpful or confusing, because I disagree with a lot of the things my fellow writers have written about your story.

You set the tone right off the bat, and I think it works -- leisurely, with lots of attention to detail, senses, sights. I don't agree with 8letters that a Californian necessarily would look at Maine negatively. Depending upon the person's personality, and receptiveness to something different, that person might find the differences charming. Having moved from one coast to another at one point in my life, this was my attitude. I think her reaction helps establish her personality -- inexperienced and new to something, but able to adapt.

You write well.

The lack of conflict would be a problem if this were a standalone story. But you've made it clear that it's not, so I don't see this as a problem. You've introduced two people, and they clicked (I had no problem with how you handled that), and they slept together. You've established something, and I assume you have a story in mind to come. I don't know what it is, but the story leaves me wondering what's to come.

I don't agree with AwkwardMD's critique of flashbacks. There are plenty of examples of good fiction that use flashbacks successfully. If you don't, then you are forced to start from the beginning chronologically, and that won't necessarily serve your artistic purpose, or make the best narrative. This is a romance where you have them sleep together in the first chapter, so I assume you have some reason for having them do that. Going through lots of chapters of background wouldn't serve that purpose. Flashbacks should be used somewhat sparingly, but they're not bad per se.

My only critique is that at the end of the chapter I have no idea where this is going, except for the sentences that EB points out that this is something they would remember in the future, and that's not much. It would help to end the chapter with more foreshadowing or some hint at what's in the next chapter. Even in a gentle romance you can use a kind of cliffhanger at the end of the chapter, which makes the reader want to click on the link to the next one.

I suppose one other thing you could do in this chapter is to establish a bit more character motivation. In a good story a character has an unmet need, and that need creates motivation and propels the plot. A good example of an author who handles this well is Larry McMurtry. His characters all have some kind of need that drives them, often desperately, usually unsuccessfully, but you get a good picture of what that need is, or at least a good glimpse of it, right away, often within a paragraph or two of their introduction.

That said, I liked the story, especially your writing style.
 
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Oh, and I don't think there's anything at all unusual about him lusting after her despite the age difference. Being on the other side of 47 myself, I can attest that while some things change with time and age, lusting after pretty women, especially those with nice legs, does not.
 
I've read the first chapter only, so far. I don't know if this is going to be helpful or confusing, because I disagree with a lot of the things my fellow writers have written about your story.

You set the tone right off the bat, and I think it works -- leisurely, with lots of attention to detail, senses, sights. I don't agree with 8letters that a Californian necessarily would look at Maine negatively. Depending upon the person's personality, and receptiveness to something different, that person might find the differences charming. Having moved from one coast to another at one point in my life, this was my attitude. I think her reaction helps establish her personality -- inexperienced and new to something, but able to adapt.

You write well.

The lack of conflict would be a problem if this were a standalone story. But you've made it clear that it's not, so I don't see this as a problem. You've introduced two people, and they clicked (I had no problem with how you handled that), and they slept together. You've established something, and I assume you have a story in mind to come. I don't know what it is, but the story leaves me wondering what's to come.

I don't agree with AwkwardMD's critique of flashbacks. There are plenty of examples of good fiction that use flashbacks successfully. If you don't, then you are forced to start from the beginning chronologically, and that won't necessarily serve your artistic purpose, or make the best narrative. This is a romance where you have them sleep together in the first chapter, so I assume you have some reason for having them do that. Going through lots of chapters of background wouldn't serve that purpose. Flashbacks should be used somewhat sparingly, but they're not bad per se.

My only critique is that at the end of the chapter I have no idea where this is going, except for the sentences that EB points out that this is something they would remember in the future, and that's not much. It would help to end the chapter with more foreshadowing or some hint at what's in the next chapter. Even in a gentle romance you can use a kind of cliffhanger at the end of the chapter, which makes the reader want to click on the link to the next one.

I suppose one other thing you could do in this chapter is to establish a bit more character motivation. In a good story a character has an unmet need, and that need creates motivation and propels the plot. A good example of an author who handles this well is Larry McMurtry. His characters all have some kind of need that drives them, often desperately, usually unsuccessfully, but you get a good picture of what that need is, or at least a good glimpse of it, right away, often within a paragraph or two of their introduction.

That said, I liked the story, especially your writing style.

Thank you, Simon, I appreciate your comments.

Actually, the ending of the first chapter is a bit of foreshadowing, but for far, far down the line, and it will not be apparent as such until then. Perhaps that's not really foreshadowing, but just...resonance? Similar to the way, in my first series, My Fall and Rise, that the last paragraph of the final chapter reflects the beginning paragraph of chapter one.
 
Oh, and I don't think there's anything at all unusual about him lusting after her despite the age difference. Being on the other side of 47 myself, I can attest that while some things change with time and age, lusting after pretty women, especially those with nice legs, does not.

It’s not unusual but it is alienating to readers on the other side of 47. If you want to write for men aged 47 and older, it’s a fine concept. But many readers will see it as creepy and nope out.
 
It’s not unusual but it is alienating to readers on the other side of 47. If you want to write for men aged 47 and older, it’s a fine concept. But many readers will see it as creepy and nope out.

Alvin behaves in an entirely gentlemanly manner and has this single "lustful" thought:

Alvin watched her from the kitchen window while the staff whipped up their lunch. He looked at her long legs. He wanted to touch them, to part them, to lower himself between them. But more than that, he wanted to spend more time gazing into her eyes.

I'm at a loss to respond to the opinion that what I think is normal male sexual interest is "creepy", but thank you for taking the time to comment.
 
It’s strange to explain because it’s obvious to me and even gut instinct. I’ll try: The difference in life stages, perspectives, and basic stamina risks coming across as mismatched at best and even lecherous. The idea of wrinkled skin across smooth skin, it is just unsexy to think about.
 
On the other hand, I think I am willing to stand by the notion that men in their forties do have lustful thoughts about women in their twenties and there is nothing unusual about that.
This hits a lot of issues for me, so I'll go through the one by one.

First off, my impression is that you imagine that, in the story, there's a magic moment when Mary and Alvin make eye contact for the first time. Angels sing and they both realize that they are soul mates. That doesn't happen in the story.

Secondly, my theory is that the prettier the woman, the more she gets hit on. And the more she gets hit on, the less she enjoys each individual time she's hit on. From your description of Mary, she's a very attractive woman. Consequently, she's probably been hit on all her life and is rather sick of it. When a guy hits on her, the shields go up and she's ready to rain hellfire on the idiot.

Thirdly, Alvin's behavior is totally unprofessionally. Mary did not come to his retail location to get hit on. Mary - "I'd like to rent a kayak." Alvin - "You can't do that but you can go on a date with me tomorrow." If my girlfriend got asked out by a sales person at a store, I'd be telling the manager in no uncertain terms that that asshole needs to be fired. Of course, Alvin can't be fired as he owns the wharf.

Fourthly, continuing on Alvin's unprofessional behavior - it's unprofessional to openly check out people in your workplace. In this case, it's super unprofessional to openly check out a customer's body. Noticing she's young and has nice legs when she rides up - a guy's mind naturally does that. Checking out her tits while she's looking at you? NO! No, no, no, no. Fireable offense.

Fifthly, Alvin is apparently something of a sexual predator. "A lot of good looking women passed through the yard, and over the years, he'd had more than his share of encounters..." So apparently he openly checks out and then hits on all the young women who come to his wharf. At his age, he's not going to succeed often, but he succeeds often enough to keep trying. He's a creepy, dirty old man who gets away with his offensive behavior because he inherited the wharf.

Note: you don't discuss this, but my impression is that he was having these sexual encounters with female customers while he was married. There's no break in the "over the years".

Sixthly, we get to Alvin fantasizing about having sex with Mary. It's totally consistent with Alvin being a unprofessional, creepy, dirty old man. Again, he probably fantasizes about having sex with all his good-looking female customers while they're at his wharf. "Oh yeah, baby. Lean over that picnic table and let me bury my face between your legs. You know you want it." There's nothing normal about that. There's nothing socially acceptable about that. I can see other town residents warning Mary away from Alvin's wharf.
 
It’s strange to explain because it’s obvious to me and even gut instinct. I’ll try: The difference in life stages, perspectives, and basic stamina risks coming across as mismatched at best and even lecherous. The idea of wrinkled skin across smooth skin, it is just unsexy to think about.

Alvin is 46 and works hard at a physically demanding job. He is described as being in good shape and certainly not lacking in stamina. He treats Mary with complete respect.I am genuinely surprised to see him described as creepy or lecherous. I am disappointed that he read that way to you, but I thank you for sharing your perspective.
 
This hits a lot of issues for me, so I'll go through the one by one.

First off, my impression is that you imagine that, in the story, there's a magic moment when Mary and Alvin make eye contact for the first time. Angels sing and they both realize that they are soul mates. That doesn't happen in the story.

Secondly, my theory is that the prettier the woman, the more she gets hit on. And the more she gets hit on, the less she enjoys each individual time she's hit on. From your description of Mary, she's a very attractive woman. Consequently, she's probably been hit on all her life and is rather sick of it. When a guy hits on her, the shields go up and she's ready to rain hellfire on the idiot.

Thirdly, Alvin's behavior is totally unprofessionally. Mary did not come to his retail location to get hit on. Mary - "I'd like to rent a kayak." Alvin - "You can't do that but you can go on a date with me tomorrow." If my girlfriend got asked out by a sales person at a store, I'd be telling the manager in no uncertain terms that that asshole needs to be fired. Of course, Alvin can't be fired as he owns the wharf.

Fourthly, continuing on Alvin's unprofessional behavior - it's unprofessional to openly check out people in your workplace. In this case, it's super unprofessional to openly check out a customer's body. Noticing she's young and has nice legs when she rides up - a guy's mind naturally does that. Checking out her tits while she's looking at you? NO! No, no, no, no. Fireable offense.

Fifthly, Alvin is apparently something of a sexual predator. "A lot of good looking women passed through the yard, and over the years, he'd had more than his share of encounters..." So apparently he openly checks out and then hits on all the young women who come to his wharf. At his age, he's not going to succeed often, but he succeeds often enough to keep trying. He's a creepy, dirty old man who gets away with his offensive behavior because he inherited the wharf.

Note: you don't discuss this, but my impression is that he was having these sexual encounters with female customers while he was married. There's no break in the "over the years".

Sixthly, we get to Alvin fantasizing about having sex with Mary. It's totally consistent with Alvin being a unprofessional, creepy, dirty old man. Again, he probably fantasizes about having sex with all his good-looking female customers while they're at his wharf. "Oh yeah, baby. Lean over that picnic table and let me bury my face between your legs. You know you want it." There's nothing normal about that. There's nothing socially acceptable about that. I can see other town residents warning Mary away from Alvin's wharf.

Clearly, you read a radically different character from the one I had intended to write. Thank you for sharing your perspectives. I will keep them in mind going forward.
 
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