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The Male Form:

I’ve written that I feel that there is an increasing appreciation of the male nude in our culture and I plan to write about that in the future. Well here goes. There have been a number of exhibitions at art museums and galleries in recent years showcasing the male form and in particular the male nude. One was the Leopold Museum’s (Vienna, Austria) Nackte Männer (Nude Man) Exhibit which ran from October 2012 to January 2013. To me the most interesting work shown there was a multi-dimensional image (it appears to be a series of enlarged photographs) of a reclining nude male (approximately 30 feet by 10 feet by 14 feet) called “Mr. Big” (2006 - 2012) completed by the artist Ilse Haider, born in 1965 in Salzburg, Austria. Many of her works involve a transfer of a photographic image to another median or the printing of a photograph onto materials such as ceramics, wood or wicker. This particular work was placed just outside of the museum. I found a short YouTube video of children running around the uncensored nude figure as if it was a playground.

Moonlight and Roses,
 
MoonlightandRoses said:
Holliday, I’m glad you liked the links. What you wrote about different cultures is very interesting to me. Could you kindly let me know where you read that? If it on the internet kindly link to it. It seems to me that many people think what is usual in “Western Culture” is natural to humans. In part this belief may be enhanced by the “Westernization” other cultures. When young I saw a picture of three young African males in a book called “The Nile” written in the 1920’s or 30’s. These young males were completely nude and seemed so natural and without any shame in that state. This I felt them to be beautiful and this image made a great impression on me. Michelangelo’s David is very large between 14 and 17 feet high. Originally it was to have been placed high on top of the Duomo cathedral, but that was changed and it was originally placed in the Piazza della Signoria, in the center of Florence. Thus this completely naked and uncensored figure was put where everyone could see it up close. My belief is that the Florentines saw this work as a symbol of their state and the renaissance. I can’t image such a work being placed in any conspicuous place in the United States. If it was up to me I would put a copy of it in the middle of Central Park where everyone could easily see it.

As to children it is my understanding that children are never shown wearing clothes in the images of ancient Egypt and because of that it is felt that children always went naked. Further I’ve read that the children of the Powhatan Confederacy in pre colonial America went naked and since Pocahontas was eleven when she met John Smith she was naked at the time. Here is a picture entitled “The Source of Life” (1890) by Leon Frederic: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4613624149_cd9c9ea4cc.jpg. It is at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. I wonder what the reaction would be if someone painted something like that now. To me images of naked children convey feelings of innocence and freedom. But many images of naked adults also convey to me feeling of innocence and freedom.

I agree with the female students who “got up in arms over it just last year with the rebuttal that young men should have more self control than to allow themselves to become excited by a mere slip of a bra strap.” An interesting story to me would be a school where the boys all where skirts (kilts) and the girls keep trying to get a look under the boy’s skirts.

Great long comment

Tom,
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Good Morning, Tom. I hope you were delighted by all the responses to your thread this morning. I also want to thank Kimi, ElectricBlue, and Notwise for jumping in with their contributions. It is so nice to have someone raise a subject like this one for discussion. As to where I read about the nudity, actually it was on wikipedia. I was looking for the name of a particular statue I had always liked from the Hellenic period. I saw a link that took me off on the subject of nudity and it went from there! LOL I will go back to my history today and see if I can locate the link again. (It may take some time, so be patient.) :eek:
I also ran across a fabulous depiction of Cleopatra in the nude. Which would explain why Mark Antony was chastised in Rome for his propensity to go without clothing as well! Julius and Antony must have had a great appreciation for her and I have often wondered if when she went to Rome, there might not have been a little something-something between the three of them? :D
I loved your link here to "The Source of Life." How beautiful is that! When I was a child (1968), my family traveled to and lived for a short period in Central America. Along the way, we stopped in a village to have lunch by the river. All the male children came to the river to swim and they were all quite nude of course. My sister and I, of course wanted to join them! I was totally fascinated with the fact that no one chastised them for swimming nude. I think perhaps that was when I decided I was 'over' clothing. A few short years later (1973), I moved to the west coast where took up the practice of swimming nude alone at night in the apartment swimming pool. It has nothing to do with public nudity or the thrill some people get from it. It is simply an enjoyment for being unencumbered by clothing. I still love getting dressed up and I love fashion, like any woman, but there is a time and a season...;)
 
electricblue66 said:
Holliday,

when I get a response like yours to my writing, I know I'm doing something right. Thank you so much.

Someone once tried to tell me I write too much description and to cut it back. How can I do that, why would I do that? My style was once described as story telling by a log fire with a fine malt whiskey, meandering and slow. I liked that.
Click to expand...

Electric...I don't think anyone can write too much description, but this is especially true when it is as well written as the example you provided. I was definitely not just patronizing you with my comments about your writing. When I began reading, my jaw dropped! It was incredibly accurate writing. As a reader, you did indeed 'do something right'. I very, very seldom favor a story, but I did favor yours. I have often wondered if during any of my past encounters, my lover could sense all those thoughts and emotions. I think you proved that they could. That makes me happy. I thought the beginning of the work was so well balanced with sensual depictions and your occasional use of more 'hardcore' phrases gave it that dream-like quality with sudden jolts of reality. Very well balanced.
 
Holliday, I was happy about all the responses that this morning. I wonder if William Shakespeare ever thought about such a threesome. There seems to be both weak and strong nudity taboos. I can mow my lawn bare-chested, but it would not be appropriate to go to work at an office that way. While in many places, but not all, a woman could be arrested for mowing her lawn bare-chested. So, it is a weak taboo for a man to go bare-chested in some places, but a strong taboo for a woman to do so. I’ve thought that in many cultures nudity is a weak taboo. It would depend on age, social rank and where a person is. However, it is legal for women to go bare-chested in New York State where I live.

Ancient Greek men are known for going naked when playing sports or when exercising. Actually the word Gymnasium is from the Greek for a place to exercise in the nude. Gymnos means naked in Greek. I’ve read that Greek men wore clothes in public, but one type of clothing they wore was called a chlamys (a short fine woolen mantle) that really didn’t cover much. Here is an image of a man wearing a chlamys: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2f/5d/e4/2f5de46a7960e9fd1eaf1c96713cc5dc.jpg and here is an image of a man wearing a chlamys pulled back: http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/5/42772.jpg. The fig leaf is not authentic for that custom. My guess is that men would often wear the chlamys pulled back when it was warm and that the chlamys was more for protection from the weather than for modesty. I believe that Greek men often went nude in public.

Your tale about Central America is interesting. For those boys it was natural and not shameful to be nude like that. I think that many children, girls and boys like to be naked and also like to dress up. Also, I can understand your enjoyment for being unencumbered by clothing and there is nothing inconsistent with liking that and liking to get dressed up. Maybe in the future I will write about my naked adventures. Also thank you for the link.

Clair de Lune et La Vie en Rose,
 
Both images are intriguing. The fig leaf does appear out of place and unnecessary to me. I'm sure they had their reasons. I love how the dog is looking up at him! LOL Yes, the same double standards as the male skirt issue in schools that I raised earlier seems to apply in your reference to male-topless vs female topless nudity prohibitions.
In the southern US, I think swimming nude is a more accepted practice than it is up north, probably due to weather conditions somewhat. As children in the south, going to the creek to swim, it was a given that everyone went topless at least. While my mother was very modest, it isnt a trait that I seemed to inherit from her. LOL She used to gasp when she realized that my sister and I never wore undergarments under our clothes. Not since we began puberty. Now, in her early 80's, Mom has also discarded her underwear for the sake of comfort. Her husband just shakes his head but I told her, "It's about time, Mom!" I've never been seriously involved with men who wore undergarments either. I certainly didn't know that when the relationships began, so...it isn't like I have a preference or anything. Just coincidence? I find the expression "going commando" hilarious for some reason. I guess because when I was young, I just assumed most people don't like bras, and underpants or panties. Why give it a label? Ironically, the only time I DO wear lingerie of any kind is when I am making an attempt to initiate sex with a man. (Satin and lace corsets and silk stockings, that sort of thing...) I use them as 'window dressings' if you will. A lot of men like them. Some don't. I wonder what a man from Ancient Greece would say today if you handed him a pair of boxers? Or perhaps, Helen of Troy a bra? Interesting to ponder...
 
Holliday, it is my understanding that women in “Western Culture” did not regularly wear underpants until the 1840’s or 1850’s and that it is healthier for a woman not to wear underpants under a skirt. Even then underpants were split with each leg separate. The word pants comes from Saint Pantaleo with Pantaleo meaning All Lion. He became a patron saint of Venice and Pantaleo became a nickname for a man from that city. Later Italian comedy developed a character from Venice named Pantaloon or something like that. This character wore trousers and the type of trousers he wore became known as Pantaloons. This got shorted in the 19th or early 20th century to pants and pants became panties.

As to fig leaves it is also my understanding that they were added to works of art, particularly male nudes starting about 1541. Sometime later many of the penises were removed from sculptures with a fig leaf added. That maybe what happened to the statue I linked to. Greek men of the ancient period did not wear fig leaves and I doubt that the statue originally had a fig leaf. See here: http://albertis-window.com/2013/05/a-timeline-of-early-modern-censorship/.

Based upon the above and what you wrote about different cultures it may be that the strong taboos that we have in our current culture against the showing of the nude and in particular the male nude did not generally exist in most of the past including Christian Europe. For the Sistine Chapel, with its nudes, was painted from 1508 to 1512, indicating that nude and in particular the male nude was not seen as being objectionable in a place of worship.

Moonlight and Roses,
 
To add to what I see as the increasing appreciation of the male nude in our culture The Leopold Museum’s Nude Man Exhibit (see above) inspired a similar Exhibition featuring the nude male in art entitled “Masculine/Masculine” at the Musee D’Orsay in Paris. The Paris exhibition ran from late 2013 to January 2014. These works extend back to 1800.

Moonlight and Roses,
 
I'm guessing the OP never encountered briars or brambles or bugs while prancing about in his birthday suit. I imagine girls collided with the real world, too.
 
MoonlightandRoses said:
To add to what I see as the increasing appreciation of the male nude in our culture The Leopold Museum’s Nude Man Exhibit (see above) inspired a similar Exhibition featuring the nude male in art entitled “Masculine/Masculine” at the Musee D’Orsay in Paris. The Paris exhibition ran from late 2013 to January 2014. These works extend back to 1800.

Moonlight and Roses,
Click to expand...

I would have loved to have seen such an exhibit. I missed one here in 2014 of the Greek statues. I think it was titled "Aphrodite" if I recall correctly. I wanted badly to see it, but real-life kept me busy and I didn't make it. I'm sure I will be regretting it for a long time to come.
Thank you for explaining how and when the 'fig leaf' came into being. I was wondering about it since some of the ancient sculptures were created long before the bible was written. Where would they get the idea to use a fig leaf if not from it? Figs seem to be mentioned in history a great deal. They apparently were part of a regular diet world wide. I suppose because they grow anywhere and in abundance. I highly doubt that fig leaves were used to cover any human form in reality. I, for one, am HIGHLY allergic to their sap. (I don't care much for the fruit, but can eat it.) When I prune the many trees/bushes I have here, I itch for hours! LOL I don't know anyone personally who handles them without complaint of the sap. They also attract wasps and hornets which is another hazard entirely. It leads me to wonder why they chose it?
 
Holliday, I did not see either exhibit, but hopefully there will be some such exhibits in North America.

I agree that it is unlikely that fig leaves were used to cover any human form in reality. As to why they were chosen I would guess because they are large and common to the Mediterranean and Mid Eastern areas. I’m glad you liked the explanation on fig leaves.

Moonlight and Roses,
 
During the 1950s and 1960s it would have been inconceivable that women would pay to see male-stripers. But, in the 1970s that is what happened. Now we have the movies “Magic Mike” (2012) and “Magic Mike XXL” (2015). These movies did pretty well. According to Box Office Mojo “Magic Mike” came in 28th out of 667 in box office revenues for 2012 and “Magic Mike XXL” came in 46th out of 698 in box office revenues for 2015. Perhaps more interesting 73% of the audience for the opening week for “Magic Mike” was female, while a very large 96% of the audience for the opening week for “Magic Mike XXL was female. I feel this shows how the perception of the male form can change for the positive over a relatively short time and I feel it is evidence that the male form is becoming more appreciated than it had been.

Tom,
 
MoonlightandRoses said:
During the 1950s and 1960s it would have been inconceivable that women would pay to see male-stripers. But, in the 1970s that is what happened. Now we have the movies “Magic Mike” (2012) and “Magic Mike XXL” (2015). These movies did pretty well. According to Box Office Mojo “Magic Mike” came in 28th out of 667 in box office revenues for 2012 and “Magic Mike XXL” came in 46th out of 698 in box office revenues for 2015. Perhaps more interesting 73% of the audience for the opening week for “Magic Mike” was female, while a very large 96% of the audience for the opening week for “Magic Mike XXL was female. I feel this shows how the perception of the male form can change for the positive over a relatively short time and I feel it is evidence that the male form is becoming more appreciated than it had been.

Tom,
Click to expand...

You assumed that only because of 2 movies? I honestly doubt about that. I am talking about the fact that male form is becoming more appreciated than it had been... I just think that in the best male form has been much more appreciated than now. I can't prove it, but I just can see how woman look at those who have forms and at those who have money. forms, lately, aren't playing a big role at all (at least for most women). maybe 'cuz of steroids... or maybe because nowadays there are all kinds of cialis coupon i don't know
 
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Afteally1, I have not assumed that only because of 2 movies. In the post you responded to I wrote that since the 1970s there have been women who have paid to see men strip. So for approximately 40 years women have been paying to see men strip. That shows increased appreciation of the male form. The two movies I referred to only reinforces that and shows that even now many women are interested in male strippers, otherwise so many women would not have seen those movies. This clearly shows a difference in the behavior of women and changes in behavior gives insight into changes in feelings. Second, in two previous posts I wrote about recent art exhibitions dealing with male nudity and I mentioned that, in Vienna, children were allowed to play around a very large image of an uncensored male nude. I’m not completely sure what your point was and it is possible that you meant to write “past” instead of “best.” Now it is possible that in the past, before the 1970s, women wanted to pay to see male strippers, but for some reason didn’t. In that case women had always wanted to see men strip, but for some reason were denied that. It is also possible that you meant to write that women are more likely to marry for money now than in the past. I feel that with women being more financially independent now it is less likely that a woman would marry for money now that in the past. You also say you “can’t prove it.” I have at least provided evidence for my position you didn’t for yours. Also I plan to more such evidence in the future.

Tom,
 
For those who celebrated the holiday I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving – I did – and for those who didn’t celebrate it I hope you had a happy Thursday, Jueves, Jeudi, Donnerstag, Giovedì, etc.

A new development in entertainment for women is “Hen Party Male Life Figure Drawing.” Life drawing generally refers to the drawing of a nude model and in this case the model is a naked man and the ones doing the drawing are women. This is not a class, but is a party and at least sometimes alcohol is served. One website claims that the women at the party get to see the model nude for a longer time than with a striper and the lighting is better. This suggests to me that these life drawing parties are not just a different version of a male stripper, but an expansion on the concept of women wanting to look at naked men. This clearly shows a change in women’s behaviour regarding the viewing of a naked man. As I indicated earlier it is possible that in the past women always wanted to pay to see naked men, but for some reason didn’t. But it also suggests that the perception of the male form can change for the positive over a relatively short time and I feel it is evidence that the male form continues to become more appreciated than it had been. I didn’t link to the website because I didn’t want people to think I was promoting a particular business.

Moonlight and Roses,
 
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MoonlightandRoses said:
For those who celebrated the holiday I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving – I did – and for those who didn’t celebrate it I hope you had a happy Thursday, Jueves, Jeudi, Donnerstag, Giovedì, etc.

A new development in entertainment for women is “Hen Party Male Life Figure Drawing.” Life drawing generally refers to the drawing of a nude model and in this case the model is a naked man and the ones doing the drawing are women. This is not a class, but is a party and at least sometimes alcohol is served. One website claims that the women at the party get to see the model nude for a longer time than with a striper and the lighting is better. This suggests to me that these life drawing parties are not just a different version of a male stripper, but an expansion on the concept of women wanting to look at naked men. This clearly shows a change in women’s behaviour regarding the viewing of a naked man. As I indicated earlier it is possible that in the past women always wanted to pay to see naked men, but for some reason didn’t. But it also suggests that the perception of the male form can change for the positive over a relatively short time and I feel it is evidence that the male form continues to become more appreciated than it had been. I didn’t link to the website because I didn’t want people to think I was promoting a particular business.

Moonlight and Roses,
Click to expand...

Good Day, Tom. I, too, hope everyone has had a wonderful holiday thus far. Now, this sounds like an interesting pastime! :devil: Where do I sign up? But, seriously, I don't think women ever truly stopped appreciating the male form. I believe the practice may have just gone underground for a time. Male strippers here were, as you pointed out, a hot item in the late '80's. At the time the craze began to fade, coincidentally, drinking laws began to change, imposing harsher punishments for those who chose to drink and drive. It affected a lot of businesses in various ways. (No longer legal to have 2 for1 Happy Hours so many popular hot spots closed their doors is but one for instance.) Gentlemen's clubs who hosted the one night per week male stripper performances saw it as no longer profitable. It was a great deal of fun while it lasted. The Chip-n-dales were very popular here, touring our area several times a year. No men allowed except for the dancers. The Male Drawing Parties sound like just a new twist on an older practice. I think a photography session would probably be more popular, however. Not everyone can or will draw, but anyone can snap a photo and hope for a lucky shot! Hope you are having a wonderful day...
 
Holliday, if the practice went underground for a time then I think the two Magic Mike movies shows that interest in it has come back. You have a good idea in regard to a photography session. It could also be the basis for an interesting story. As to where you can sign up, all of the sites I have found are from the United Kingdom. I think it started there. However, I suspect that there are some in the United States also.

Thank you for your good wishes and I hope you have a great day.

Tom,
 
The next trend after “Hen Party Male Life Figure Drawing” could be “Hen Party Male Body Painting,” where women pay to paint men’s bodies. This would be really close up. I found what appears to be one such site. Again this is in the United Kingdom.

Tom,
 
MoonlightandRoses said:
The next trend after “Hen Party Male Life Figure Drawing” could be “Hen Party Male Body Painting,” where women pay to paint men’s bodies. This would be really close up. I found what appears to be one such site. Again this is in the United Kingdom.

Tom,
Click to expand...

I don't think I would feel comfortable with that. (Either as a model or as one doing the painting.) Putting myself in the part of the model, I would think it would be very demeaning to have strange women touching me, even if I have implied my consent by accepting the job for money.
Putting myself in the place of the one doing the body painting, I would feel much like I was intruding on personal space of the model. But, that is just me. I wonder how popular this is in reality.
I would prefer to watch a male stripper. I would never touch someone without their permission and without there being some mutual exchange of pleasure. (Have you ever had someone insist upon a handshake when you clearly would rather refrain from even that simple physical contact? There are some people you just don't want to have any contact with. Who knows why?) If I'm paid to be a model, it doesn't give anyone the right to touch me. The idea of paying a man to paint his body? It reeks of subjectification. I love looking at an attractive male, but I would never presume to touch him. It's a matter of taste, manners and respect. Male dancers select the women they will tolerate to touch their bodies when accepting gratuities. For me, there seems to be a dividing line here, albeit a fine one. How do you feel about it, Tom? :rose:
 
Holliday, I would not feel it to be demeaning, but as different people can see things differently and as you explained yourself well I can understand how you feel. In one picture I saw the man was completely naked and the women were using paintbrushes, but were very close to the man. Another picture showed the man to just be topless and the women were using sponges. As to how popular it is, I didn’t find many websites and it seems that the men sometimes wear a small bathing suit like garment or may just be topless. You write that “Male dancers select the women they will tolerate to touch their bodies when accepting gratuities.” That is interesting. Thanks for the rose and the comment.

Tom,
 
What I see as attractive and sometimes beautiful when looking at male ballet dancers is not just their bodies, but also their expressions both in regard to their bodies and their faces, as well as the sometimes colorful costumes they wear. Male ballet dancers don’t always wear tights. Here is a short video of Angel Corella Dancing in Le Corsaire with the American Ballet Theater: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kRtyu0S4bY. Not the best quality. Angel Corella comes out about 15 seconds into the video.

Here are photographs of the Russian ballet dancer Artem Ovcharenko:
Portrait: http://www.bolshoi.ru/r/5049D886-9E73-4209-9465-543000685135/Ovcharenko.jpg
Reclining: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7015/6634420125_e73bd383f0_b.jpg
Practicing: http://www.artemovcharenko.com/images/Grishko/Grishko_Ovcharenko_3.jpg
And dancing the role of the Bluebird in the Sleeping Beauty: http://www.bolshoi.ru/upload/iblock/2bf/2bfa9561e72ef9ed6636cfb8e39a19b9.jpg

I see both Angel Corella and Artem Ovcharenko as being beautiful men.

Tom,
 
MoonlightandRoses said:
Holliday, I would not feel it to be demeaning, but as different people can see things differently and as you explained yourself well I can understand how you feel. In one picture I saw the man was completely naked and the women were using paintbrushes, but were very close to the man. Another picture showed the man to just be topless and the women were using sponges. As to how popular it is, I didn’t find many websites and it seems that the men sometimes wear a small bathing suit like garment or may just be topless. You write that “Male dancers select the women they will tolerate to touch their bodies when accepting gratuities.” That is interesting. Thanks for the rose and the comment.

Tom,
Click to expand...

Ahhh....this is much different than the idea I originally had perceived in my head. (One of finger-painting is the image I got.) Using brushes and other tools makes quite a difference. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Somehow, it makes me feel much better about it. (Honestly, I'm surprised by my own initial reaction to your original description, but it just goes to show, you never know what people will perceive as objectification of another.) I think I can understand how some people earlier in the thread took a stand in opposition to what is appreciation and where we draw the line. Obviously, we all have our boundaries.
In response to male dancers selecting who they allow to touch them when accepting gratuities, I am sure female dancers do the same thing. For one, here, where I live, they are not supposed to have any physical contact with their audience whatsoever if they (dancers) are completely nude. If wearing a g-string, they do allow some audience members to place tips in their g-string and even to touch them. I'd say about one in five they grant that privilege. But, that is just a guess from my observations. I attended quite a few bachelorette parties at male strip clubs in the late '80's.
 
Holliday, I don’t always know if I am explaining things in the best way. Also people do have different opinions and feel differently about things. Thank you for writing about male dancers. While it is true that I didn’t know much about male dancers I did know something as back in the late 1970s or early 1980s I once performed as a stripper for women. I did wear a g-string and it was as you wrote. I wrote that I didn’t know much about male dancers since not being a great dancer I only did that only once and thought that perhaps after the early 1980s touching had become more acceptable.

Tom,
 
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