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Snippettsville Map Discussion

Quasimodem said:
The only involvement with the timber industry that I see as being still in existence in Snippettsville is The Annual Snippettsville Lumberjack Competition (Name Tentative) , each fall.

Not unlike the Calgary's Stampede, the city grew beyond its cowboy roots, the cattle industry changed from range to lot feeding, and that region developing as large a presence in the petrochemical industry as in the cattle industry.
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One more thought about the Lumberjack Competition:

Where is the Snippets County Fairground?

The Clark County Fairgrounds are in a small town about 25 miles from Las Vegas and the county fairgrounds around the west are often still in small towns, rather than in the county seat or othe big cities. Some western counties have established newer Fairgrounds in bigger cities to improve attendance and profitablitity, but many have kept the "traditional" fairgrounds where they were first established.

So, are the Snippet County Fairgrounds still in Snippetsville, or are there some "Old Fairgrounds" in Snippetsville that need to be shown on one of the Maps.

Either might be a suitable venue for a stop on the Lumberjack Competition circuit -- and other events or traveling shows, like carnivals or one of the very few circuses still traveling with a Big Top (like the one that sets up in the casino parking lot across the street from me every six months and has sound system speakers bigger than my apartment. :( )

Is the City Park the 'Old Fairgrounds'? If Snippetsville hosts the County Fair each year, the Fairground would probably be separate from the City Park, although it might be close by.

(in other words, just where might the Lumberjack Competition Venue be and what else goes on there?)
 
Weird Harold said:
One more thought about the Lumberjack Competition:

Where is the Snippets County Fairground?

. . . just where might the Lumberjack Competition Venue be and what else goes on there?)
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WH,

To answer your questions:

The Annual Snippettsville Lumberjack Competition, or whatever it’s name, is staged each fall in Abner Barstowe’s wheatfield, after the crop has been harvested.

The only permanent structures are two hundred-foot-tall ‘climbing trees.’ Logs for competition chopping, two-man saw teams, even chain saw competitions are dragged in by tractor the week before. The duck pond, where Wilot’s creek passes through Barstowe’s property, is where they hold the log rolling contests. There are usually sideshows, kiddie rides and candy floss sold in a separate area, and an Arts and Crafts Show, held under a big circus-sized tent, for the women.

One would never hold a lumberjack competition inside a man-made stadium.

Funny your mentioning the loud speakers system. There is a small, inadequate loudspeaker system that is always set up, but for the past 50 years, KSNP has broadcast the entire competition live - including commercials - so most people just bring a portable radio.

Barstowe’s Field has a long history in Snippettsville. Up until the late 1920's, when the money ran out, Snippettsville had a yearly Chautauqua Tent Show held in that field. Of course, Chautauqua Shows went the way of the Buffalo. The only circus tent that’s still set up in Barstowe’s Field is the one that holds the Arts and Crafts Displays, during the Lumberjack Competition.

A crusading revivalist minister would come and set up a tent in Barstowe’s Field trying to convert local sinners, and then baptise the week’s crop on Sunday Afternoon, in the duck pond. The minister doesn’t come around anymore. He’s been replaced by a spellbinder on television, so -once more - the field stays bare.

TV reception is pretty good, the better heeled have satellite dishes, and transportation is faster, so a trip to the city to see a film, or the theatre, is not impossible.

Except for the yearly Timberwillie Infestation, these days, Barstow’s Field only raises wheat.


All of this, of course, comes from “A History of Snippettsville” that exists in my head. Yours is obviously different, but since Snippettsville was created in Alex’s head, I’m willing to have my personal history overruled.
 
Quasimodem said:
One would never hold a lumberjack competition inside a man-made stadium.
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I think you misunderstand the concept of a County Fairgrounds: The kind that are in small towns are about 40 acres (roughly the size of Barstowe's fields) With one or two exhibit halls along one edge, and a few stock pens nearby for the 4H club and Future Farmers to keep their livestock in.

The rest of the forty acres is usually open pasture/fields where whatever Carnival rides or additional stockpens can be set up or tractor pulls and monster truck courses can be laid out. (It used to be a steeplechase course for horse races, but Monster trucks draw more fans than the old nags and retired draft horses that are the best Snippet County can do for race horses.)


Quasimodem said:
but since Snippettsville was created in Alex’s head, I’m willing to have my personal history overruled.
Click to expand...

Well, Alex, is there a Fairground? If so, where?
 
I'm almost beginning to wish I'd never mentioned the lumber industry! The comments that have been coming in, however, have caused my creative processes to go into diagnostic mode, and I have a few thoughts to share.

Harold asked if Green Lake was natural, or man-made. My answer to that, is originally a natural lake, it was enlarged by damming Green River gorge, thus making Green Lake bigger, in order to supply drinking water to Snippettsville and other parts of the county (still unnamed!) The damming has resulted in Green Lake acquiring those 'finger bays' which were originally the lower ends of the valleys along the shores of the lake. Lots of nooks and crannies! And snags for boats...

The comments about lumbering and railroads have also caused me to re-appraise the location of Snippettsville. I don't think it affects any of the existing tales if we were to move Snippettsville West. My choice would be Oregon. It also means that the closing of the mill could be a more recent phenomenon, as could the making-over of the logging railroad into a hiking and biking trail. I would need to know what the local agriculture and industrial infrastructure might be, to make Snippettsville plausible, but I still see S'ville as a 'dormitory' for 'The City'.

Quasimodem made the point that it would be just as plausible to write about somewhere real. No way, buddy! I'm creating Snippettsville whether you like it or not! Seriously, if we were to write about somewhere real, someone would be bound to say 'you can't have that, so-and-so lived there, and the neighbours were...' and so on. In our fictional realm, what we say goes.

Which brings me on to the County Fairgrounds. I hadn't planned on one, but if the desire is there, why not? Does it need to be in/near Snippettsville, or will 'down the road' do?

I'm raising a query about local policing on a separate thread.

Thanks for the input and keep it coming!

Alex
 
Alex De Kok said:
Harold asked if Green Lake was natural, or man-made. My answer to that, is originally a natural lake, it was enlarged by damming Green River gorge, thus making Green Lake bigger, in order to supply drinking water to Snippettsville and other parts of the county (still unnamed!) The damming has resulted in Green Lake acquiring those 'finger bays' which were originally the lower ends of the valleys along the shores of the lake. Lots of nooks and crannies! And snags for boats...
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That sounds like Fall Creek Lake, near Dexter (see attched inset) It would have a similar outline on a map to the attahed image, although the dam wouldn't have to be quite as wide as Fall creek Dam.


The comments about lumbering and railroads have also caused me to re-appraise the location of Snippettsville. I don't think it affects any of the existing tales if we were to move Snippettsville West. My choice would be Oregon. It also means that the closing of the mill could be a more recent phenomenon, as could the making-over of the logging railroad into a hiking and biking trail. I would need to know what the local agriculture and industrial infrastructure might be, to make Snippettsville plausible, but I still see S'ville as a 'dormitory' for 'The City'.
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I don't know that I would place Snippetsviille in a particular State in any definitive way.

Simply describing it as a Small western town and not acutally naming the Interstate or "big city" would allow it to take on charactersitics takenfrom a wide stretch of western areas -- Idaho is famous for Potatoes, but they can be and are grown in Washington, Oregon, and California as well. The same applies to Alfalfa Hay, Wheat, Corn, Oats, Barley and Beans. those are all crops farms around Snippetville could grow without pinning down a location too closely.

Designating the Interstate as "I-5" would still allow a placement anywhere from around San Francisco to the Canadian Border without getting too pinned down. I-5 is the interstate highway that runs along the west coast from LA to Canada, and is the ONLY interstate that runs north and south in California, Oregon, and Washington. Using an east/west Interstate would pin the location down too closely.

If you're sure about specifying Oregon, the following is a run-down on climate, vegetation and farm crops.

Oregon has two (maybe three) distinct climates which will dictate what the vegetation possibilities are:

The coastal rainforests: mostly Douglas Fir forests but with a wide variety of temperate broadleaf deciduous species included in the mix. There is usually a thick undergrowth -- a lot of manzanita thickets that are almost impenetrable.


Dairy Farms are predominant with few other crops -- There are some orchards of apples or cherries, but they're not common. Some areas have extensive cranberry bogs as well, but they're fairly localized.

The Intermountain forests between the coast range and the Cascade mountains: Mostly Douglas Fir Forests, but with less undergrowth and the deciduous trees aren't as frequent as in the coastal rain forests -- more birch and aspen at higher elevations than oak and maple. There are lots of Vine Maple thickets, but few true Maple trees.

This is where the Willamette Valley is located, and there are many farms raising wheat, rice, corn, beans, barley, oats, alfalfa, hops, beets, sugar beets cabbage, strawberries, and just about any field crop you can imagine. There are also a good many orchards with apples, cherries of many varieties, Peaches, Pears, and black walnuts

The Willamette Valley is where 90% of Oregon's population can be found, and small towns are seldom more than 5-10 miles apart. Logging towns are not common in the minpart of the Willamette Valley, but can be found on the edges of the valley and in and near the southern end of the valley.

Eastern regon: A High Desert climate with wide grasslands and Lodgpole Pine predominant in the forsted areas. Very few deciduous trees, although there are areas near rivers and streams with large stands of Birch, Cotton wood and Aspen.

There is only one Interstate Snippetsville could be near, so the choice is pretty much limited to the Eugene area (at the southern end of the Willamette Valley) or the Medford area (southwest Oregon -- both in the intermountan part of the state and within 75 miles of the Pacific Ocean.




Which brings me on to the County Fairgrounds. I hadn't planned on one, but if the desire is there, why not? Does it need to be in/near Snippettsville, or will 'down the road' do?
Click to expand...

I think Snippetsville might have an "Old Fairground" that used to be the County Fairground and is still in reasonable repair with a exhibit hall, show barn, stock pens, and a big open area -- the 40 acre description from above -- and there are three or four "big events" each year that are held there by groups that are too cheap or poor to the New Fairground near Big City.

A fairground is not necessary, but it would provide a venue for special events that attract outsiders over and above the tourist types. QM's Lumberjack Competition needs someplace better than a farmer's field, and other authors might have an idea that needs some sort of similar venue to make it plausible.

I think the Fairground needs to be in or near town, or it defeats the purpose of defining Snippetsville if it's "down the road a bit. If a needed setting is "down the road," then the resulting vignette isn't really about Snippetsville, it's just a vignette about someone from Snippetsville.
 
Weird Harold said:
I don't know that I would place Snippetsviille in a particular State in any definitive way.
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I agree. Really Snippettsville needs to be fictitional. We don't want readers sending authors email saying 'No that's not where it is!' or 'That can't have happened because...'. Vague is best, but there will be guidelines enough to ensure authors know exactly what kind of area Snippettsville is.


If you're sure about specifying Oregon, the following is a run-down on climate, vegetation and farm crops.

Oregon has two (maybe three) distinct climates which will dictate what the vegetation possibilities are:

The coastal rainforests: mostly Douglas Fir forests but with a wide variety of temperate broadleaf deciduous species included in the mix. There is usually a thick undergrowth -- a lot of manzanita thickets that are almost impenetrable.


Dairy Farms are predominant with few other crops -- There are some orchards of apples or cherries, but they're not common. Some areas have extensive cranberry bogs as well, but they're fairly localized.

The Intermountain forests between the coast range and the Cascade mountains: Mostly Douglas Fir Forests, but with less undergrowth and the deciduous trees aren't as frequent as in the coastal rain forests -- more birch and aspen at higher elevations than oak and maple. There are lots of Vine Maple thickets, but few true Maple trees.

This is where the Willamette Valley is located, and there are many farms raising wheat, rice, corn, beans, barley, oats, alfalfa, hops, beets, sugar beets cabbage, strawberries, and just about any field crop you can imagine. There are also a good many orchards with apples, cherries of many varieties, Peaches, Pears, and black walnuts

The Willamette Valley is where 90% of Oregon's population can be found, and small towns are seldom more than 5-10 miles apart. Logging towns are not common in the minpart of the Willamette Valley, but can be found on the edges of the valley and in and near the southern end of the valley.

Eastern regon: A High Desert climate with wide grasslands and Lodgpole Pine predominant in the forsted areas. Very few deciduous trees, although there are areas near rivers and streams with large stands of Birch, Cotton wood and Aspen.

There is only one Interstate Snippetsville could be near, so the choice is pretty much limited to the Eugene area (at the southern end of the Willamette Valley) or the Medford area (southwest Oregon -- both in the intermountan part of the state and within 75 miles of the Pacific Ocean.
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Would the 'intermountain' part of the area grow the diverse crops of wheat, strawberries and apples?


I think Snippetsville might have an "Old Fairground" that used to be the County Fairground and is still in reasonable repair with a exhibit hall, show barn, stock pens, and a big open area -- the 40 acre description from above -- and there are three or four "big events" each year that are held there by groups that are too cheap or poor to the New Fairground near Big City.

A fairground is not necessary, but it would provide a venue for special events that attract outsiders over and above the tourist types. QM's Lumberjack Competition needs someplace better than a farmer's field, and other authors might have an idea that needs some sort of similar venue to make it plausible.

I think the Fairground needs to be in or near town, or it defeats the purpose of defining Snippetsville if it's "down the road a bit. If a needed setting is "down the road," then the resulting vignette isn't really about Snippetsville, it's just a vignette about someone from Snippetsville.
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In my small town, we have a place called .... District Showgrounds. The Showgrounds take up maybe 50 acres and when not in use for the two day annual Showground event, are leased by local landowners and put to use as fields for sheep. When the Showground event is near, the fields are cleared of animals and buildings that are on the actual 'Showground' area of an acre, are cleaned and readied for the show. One paddock is opened for exhibits and sales tents, several more are opened for car parking. One of the buildings is used for sheep shearing competition, log chopping is in the open air etc. I think you get the general idea.

(edited to fix html codes)
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Just an idea Re the showground / fairground why not place it where the lumber mill once stood.

Back story Old Sam Snippet originally gave a large field next to his Lumber Mill to the town for a fairground - don't forget in those days he was ambitious hoping that "his town" would grow into a city - something with the benefit of hindsight we know did not happen. When the mill closed down and after the fire, the town raised the funds to purchase the land and added it to the fairground. Hence the fairground is still known locally as the Lumber Mill. The electronics plant meant that the townspeople still believed in the town's potential to grow - of course with 20 / 20 hindsight we know that the only growth industry to develop was the ever increasing colony of writers and chroniclers:D

jon:devil: :devil: :devil:
 
wildsweetone said:
Would the 'intermountain' part of the area grow the diverse crops of wheat, strawberries and apples?
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Sure. Moreso in the Willamette Valley than in the Southern part of that area, but the space betwen the coast range and Cascade range is a very mild climate where anything that doesn't require a lot of heat or a dry climate will grow well.


In my small town, we have a place called .... District Showgrounds. The Showgrounds take up maybe 50 acres and when not in use for the two day annual Showground event, are leased by local landowners and put to use as fields for sheep.
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That is almost exactly what a "County Fairground" is.

Jon said, "Just an idea Re the showground / fairground why not place it where the lumber mill once stood."

There's no reason that your idea wouldn't work. A true fairground would likely have been in operation at the same time as the mill, but I don't see why the city couldn't have added the Old Mill to the fairgrounds after it failed.

However, I think both the Old Mill and the Fairground should remain distinct places though -- the idea of the fairground arose because an additional setting is needed for QM's Lumberjack competition and placing on the old mill site simply replaces one setting with another; the Idea was to add a potential setting rather than change an existing one.
 
aside to: Wierd Harold Do you have any idea the average temperature range in Willimette Valley in celcius if poss. please?
 
A big thank-you to all who have contributed

Snippettsville and its environs is taking shape. Your efforts are greatly appreciated by Wildsweetone and myself. I hope to be able to share the details with you in a few days, then we can revise the introduction and Snippettsville will be fully re-opened for business!

I just hope that's not 'famous last words'.

Alex

PS: The maps will have grids so that locations can be identified if additions are needed - they will be, I have little doubt
 
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wildsweetone said:
aside to: Wierd Harold Do you have any idea the average temperature range in Willimette Valley in celcius if poss. please?
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I posted the climate info on the Small town description thread -- it applies to the entire intermountain region of the Pacific Northwest -- a bit cooler on average for theWillamette Valley and points north and a bit warmer and drier for south western Oregon and North-western California.

The residents of Snippetsville would tend to think in Farenheit rather than Celcius, so I posted temperature information in that scale.

One thing I should go back and add, is that my home town, in the foothills at the southern tip of the Willamette Valley has more White Easters than White Christmases. The weather before and after those dates are generally consistent with Spring and Mid-winter respectivley, but for some reason, the weather patterns seem to swap seasons for those two dates.
 
Re: Beach

PierceStreet said:
Are we going to define how far Snippetsville is from the beach?
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I think of SVille as being far inland. Not much in the way of beaches in No. Calif, Oregon, or Washington anyway. Beach should be a non-factor.
MG
 
Beach? What beach? Nearest thing planned that is anything like a beach will be at Green Lake. Sorry PierceStreet, but somebody put mountains in the way...

Alex
 
Across the tracks

Is SVille going to have a low-rent, lowlife district? Don't all towns have one? There needs to be an area where criminals like Rip Henderson and Sugar Ray Stallings can live and prey on the welfare recipients. Crips, cars up on blocks, drive-by shootings, drug dealing, and other urban recreation.
MG
I think that in most towns, it would be in the area of the fairgrounds.
 
MathGirl said:
Is SVille going to have a low-rent, lowlife district? Don't all towns have one? There needs to be an area where criminals like Rip Henderson and Sugar Ray Stallings can live and prey on the welfare recipients. Crips, cars up on blocks, drive-by shootings, drug dealing, and other urban recreation.
MG
I think that in most towns, it would be in the area of the fairgrounds.
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I think upstairs apartments in the old brick buildings downtown would be appropriate. :rolleyes:

Smiles,
Wantonica:rose:
 
Re: Across the tracks

MathGirl said:
There needs to be an area where criminals like Rip Henderson and Sugar Ray Stallings can live and prey on the welfare recipients. Crips, cars up on blocks, drive-by shootings, drug dealing, and other urban recreation.
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MG, while you still have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek, bite down hard.

Very few small towns have have "slums" as such and most have very few problems with gangs and organized crime. Those are typically Urban problems, and small towns are NOT "urban areas."

IMHO, putting those elements into Snippetsville would defeat the point of creatingSnippetsville in the first place.
 
I partially agree with you WH.

However it should be possible for such criminal activity to take place 'once in a blue moon' in Snip.

Therefore there could be a house or two in Snip that were lived in by 'unsavoury' types who perhaps had more dealings with the big town up the road...?

Thoughts anyone?

...thinking out loud...

If we're looking at a population of say 1,000 and say, 4 people to each house (averages only), that would be 250 houses in Snippettsville.

There are bound to be several houses that are unlived in, maybe a couple that are derelict and due for demolition, (damn if there's not a story in that), maybe Snip qualifies for a couple of Social Welfare type properties, maybe the majority are average family homes with a few scattered about that are obviously well-to-do type properties...

i'm going to open a new thread in the Hangout.
 
A clarifiation of "Homesteading" for the non-americans

WSO raised a point that my use of an unconscious "Americanism" might not be understood by non-americans.

Herewith is part of the explanation of what I meant from my PM to her for discussion:

The term has it's roots in English and Viking history where a person could claim ownership of land for as far as he could throw an axe or walk from sunrise to sunset -- such holdings in Viking controlled areas were called "Steadings" and the Americans modified the requirement to include you "prove the claim" by making it your home as well; Hence "Home Steading" or "Homestead."

I used the term with regard to defining and/or detailing a section of the Snippetsville area should be the prerogative of the first person to use that setting and that authors should be able to officially "stake a claim" to a spot on the map and register it with the "territorial land office" -- i.e. you or ADK -- to prevent others from "drilling" or "plowing" there without the "owner's" permission.

I envisioned homesteaders as providing a detail map of the section they claim for other authors to use, but a detailed description would serve as well.

The key point is to provide a precise reference to where each setting is especially if it includes any significant features -- houses, large trees, a handy ravine or creek, or the like -- so one author doesn't write about looking at a thick stand of trees where someone else has already written about a grassy meadow with a stream running through it.

The 20 mile x 20 mile area I proposed for the limits of "Snippetsville stories provides for 400 square miles of territory -- divided into 0.2 mile squares, that's 2,000 possible homesteads (ignoring the detailed maps of Snippetsville proper and and Green Lake Proper where smaller "homesteads" are possible.)

Eventually, each setting should have a three number map index associated with it -- the upper left corner of the main map would be 1,1,1 and the lower left corner of the main map would be 1,100,100. Hannah's Diner would be on the second map near the center, so it would be something like 2, 55, 61. The marina and boat ramp at green lake would be around 3, 15, 75.

That of course assumes that the map grids are consistently 100x100 which might not be the case.
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The point that needs discussion here, is the idea of how homesteads will be indexed and the scale of the map grids.
 
In case no one noticed (uh, as if that is likely) , I addressed the crime situation in the General Discussion thread.

Sincerely,
Wantonica:rose:

Edited to say: I should not be on here after indulging in the spirits. But, they force me, push me in the rear, waggle their tongues in my face... darn them.
 
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Re: A clarifiation of "Homesteading" for the non-americans

Weird Harold said:
WSO raised a point that my use of an unconscious "Americanism" might not be understood by non-americans.

Herewith is part of the explanation of what I meant from my PM to her for discussion:



The point that needs discussion here, is the idea of how homesteads will be indexed and the scale of the map grids.
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Aah I didn't realise you'd posted it here WH.

I think the grid part of your comments belongs here on the mapping thread, but the 'homestead' portion needs to be addressed in the upcoming Setting Discussion aswellas here.
 
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