In defense of LW stories

It's good to see this being debated in a (mainly) reasonable manner.

Surely when it comes to whether the reader prefers Lit part (the story telling) to the erotica, you only have to look at the scores. Those posting where there is a good story, even where there is no sex, consistently outscore the stroke stories. Does this not indicate that the reader prefers them.

I do know that some men read LW stories, especially BTB, as a form of therapy. I have had feedback that tells me so. However, I don't think that is the answer to what make the cheating spouse story so attractive. Betrayal, in any form, generates huge emotion and it is the emotional side of the story that appeals to me, and many others.

The cheating spouse scenario is ideal for the "Triumph over adversity" story. Judging by the scores alone that appears to be what the customer likes. Triumph comes in many forms. It can be the total annihilation of the enemy, or it can be repairing that which was broken.

I have had feedback requesting the drama of a confrontation so perhaps the OP is right to a degree. However, I still think it is the emotional side which is the most powerful.

Men read LW stories for the same reason they go to the zoo and shark aquarium.

Let us not forget that there's a score bias for longer stories. The people who don't like them don't finish them, and thus most who finish vote high. Long, pure stroke stories can score just as highly as the deepest drama.

People who come to Lit are most likely looking for something more than the plot of your average porn flick. If they weren't, there's plenty of free porn movie sites.

But, they're still looking for sex. If they weren't looking for sex, they wouldn't be here. There is no reason for a person to come here looking for a drama, or a sci-fi epic, or even a romance unless they also want it to include detailed sex. There are just as many venues for non-sexual versions of such stories as there are porn sites for the flip side.

If you get a good score and critical acclaim for a story on Lit that either has very little or no sex in it, it's despite that, and not because of it. People come here to be sexually stimulated. If they find something more, that's a by-product of their search, not the reason for it.

RejectReality said:

Let us not forget that there's a score bias for longer stories. The people who don't like them don't finish them, and thus most who finish vote high. Long, pure stroke stories can score just as highly as the deepest drama.

People who come to Lit are most likely looking for something more than the plot of your average porn flick. If they weren't, there's plenty of free porn movie sites.

But, they're still looking for sex. If they weren't looking for sex, they wouldn't be here. There is no reason for a person to come here looking for a drama, or a sci-fi epic, or even a romance unless they also want it to include detailed sex. There are just as many venues for non-sexual versions of such stories as there are porn sites for the flip side.

If you get a good score and critical acclaim for a story on Lit that either has very little or no sex in it, it's despite that, and not because of it. People come here to be sexually stimulated. If they find something more, that's a by-product of their search, not the reason for it.

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I think you are trying to live up to your name.

The site is called LITerotica. a combination of literature and erotica. People may have started to read stories on lit because they were attracted to the erotica. However, something with a real plot and good characters gets better scores and more readers. That would seem to indicate that sex is not the reason that these readers stick around. Stories frequently display an opening declaration that there is little or no sex, but that doesn't stop people reading, leaving scores and even comments. It is enough for those readers that the sex is implied, or maybe has taken place "off screen."

Look at the works of Britease, Morton Grange, The Wanderer, to name but three. These guys consistently score well (despite the stories being short in the case of Britease) and they get readers. The customer is always right. These stories may not be the reason they first visited the site but for many, they are the reason they keep coming back.

If the only reason people logged on to Lit was to be sexually stimulated then I'm sure Laurel would have taken the same course as some other sites, and banned no sex stories. The agro she gets from the category police would be enough to make her think that way. However, the girl is not daft. She can see the figures from which she can work out what is the driver that keeps people coming back. Currently, the footfall for Lit is head and shoulders above the sites that ban no sex stories. That should tell you something.

DeYaKen said:

Those posting where there is a good story, even where there is no sex, consistently outscore the stroke stories. Does this not indicate that the reader prefers them.

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Do you have some sort of statistical proof of this across the story set? What it tells me is that you are making assumptions on the basis of what you want to see. What is a "good" story is also quite subjective. When I look at many "good" stories (read "long," "highly rated," and with gushy comments) on Lit., I see bloated verbiage that wouldn't make it in the mainstream. But that too is based on looking at a small set of what gets high ratings here, so I don't offer it as any sort of solid premise to then build conclusions on.

DeYaKen said:

If the only reason people logged on to Lit was to be sexually stimulated then I'm sure Laurel would have taken the same course as some other sites, and banned no sex stories. The agro she gets from the category police would be enough to make her think that way. However, the girl is not daft. She can see the figures from which she can work out what is the driver that keeps people coming back. Currently, the footfall for Lit is head and shoulders above the sites that ban no sex stories. That should tell you something.

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I think it's precisely to cater to the folks with prurient interests that Lit. is taking the course it is--and having the success it's having. All the literary stuff is a fig leaf hiding the rest (incest, rape, violence, nonhuman bestiality, etc.). Just as forum areas like the AH are a fig leaf to hide Laurel's beloved GB. That it accepts no sex stories just means the site is open to a tremendously wide variety of interests which, ironically enough, is what snobbish literary threads like this invite folks to try to deny the validity of a wide variety of interests rather than just being happy that their own interests are met.

You know... this is all NOT the reason I write here. That is, I don't write here just because the readers 'all' deliberately want to get off.

I don't know how it is possible that anyone - and I do mean ANYONE, even those with pretensions to er win the Booker or something - can pretend they are writing in the modern era, in the modern vernacular, and NOT include some aspect of the leading-edge in sex talk and erotic ideas. THIS is the world in which we live.

Yeah there is the ad-man's saying that once upon a time it was 'sex sells' and now 'fear and panic sells,' (mainly taxpayer funded weaponry). But all the same, if you leave aside the closed-ended lurid violence Silence Of The Lambs (not a bad tale) and Wolf Creek maniacal stuff, then you still are left with socio-sexual politics and really, a sex-theme zeitgeist for today's world of people relating to other people. Perhaps it was ever thus, but I think, previously it was hidden behind a lot of literary code.

I also think we may have moved through various shifts in popular outlook - anyone who opens their eyes when they watch some Shakespeare today will realise that those works are full of clear-cut sexual and erotic themes and ideas and Shakespeare does almost nothing if not LW!

Gays, crossdressers, bisexuality - we have it all in Shakespeare and none of it is particularly 'hidden' in the language.

I find I cannot now tell a 'straight story-based' story, as it were, without the erotica - not nowadays anyway. Stories, modern storyLINES, without the erotica are stilted! They are fake, they do not represent the current era. Sex - even extreme sex - is part of the mindset of today's people.

Desiremakesmeweak said:

You know... this is all NOT the reason I write here. That is, I don't write here just because the readers 'all' deliberately want to get off.

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That's fine--for you--and, mostly for me too. But it doesn't have to be fine for anyone/everyone else using Literotica. The site's broad enough to serve nearly everyone's interests if folks just tend to their own knitting/interests.

Liked the rest of what you posted.

If we were talking about "Literotica" I would agree with those who say sex is the key ingredient for most readers...but we're not. The thread is about "Loving Wives," one small portion of Literotica.

If the reader is looking to be titillated with scenes of intercourse there are a multitude of categories he can read that will more than suffice. I do not believe LW is one of those categories. I write almost exclusively in that category and I can't tell you the number of deeply emotional emails, PM's, and comments I get. Of course it is a small portion of the readership, but it tells me that these people were looking for a lot more than penned prose about a screaming orgasm.

Loving Wives has one of the largest readerships of all the genres in Literotica. With other categories obviously encompassing a lot more sex than LW, I believe its draw has to be much more than sex.

*sigh* Once again, unless you've received e-mails from EVERY reader of LW on Literotica, you are in no position to say what folks want from LW. They are a full range of readers/writers and they want a full range of what can be available. Why can't you folks get this through your heads and leave everyone else the hell alone without telling them what to read/write--in any category?

sr71plt said:

I think it's precisely to cater to the folks with prurient interests that Lit. is taking the course it is--and having the success it's having. All the literary stuff is a fig leaf hiding the rest (incest, rape, violence, nonhuman bestiality, etc.). Just as forum areas like the AH are a fig leaf to hide Laurel's beloved GB. That it accepts no sex stories just means the site is open to a tremendously wide variety of interests which, ironically enough, is what snobbish literary threads like this invite folks to try to deny the validity of a wide variety of interests rather than just being happy that their own interests are met.

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Of course, Lit caters to the folks with prurient interests. It is a fucking erotic story site. Nobody expects that there will be no sex.

Of course, the literary stuff is a fig leaf (I like that metaphor) covering all kinds of human sexuality. Nobody denies that nor is anyone snobbishly trying to deny anything of the sort. (Where do you get this stuff?)

The argument many picked up was more the one from TexRad than from FantasyXY.

1: Lit is an erotic site. Most readers aren't looking for drama, they are looking to be sexually stimulated.

2: see answer 1.

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If a story lacks drama, it is not a story. So Tex's statement is saying readers don't care about the story. They only want to get off.

That's been the common wisdom here and that is the purpose of strokers. Nothing wrong with strokers. What's wrong here is the premise that Lit readers, particularly LW readers, want strokers and don't care about well-crafted erotic stories. It's insulting to readers and counter to what actually goes on here.

What I, and several others, have been trying to say is that Lit readers enjoy a good story. They can get strokers anywhere, even Penthouse letters which many Lit stories resemble in style and format.

This is not the most popular erotic story site because of lots of strokers. It is probably the most popular because nearly every human being from the time we were in caves, appreciates a well-told tale and sex. Combine them and you got the proto Reese peanut butter cup.

rj

sr71plt said:

*sigh* Once again, unless you've received e-mails from EVERY reader of LW on Literotica, you are in no position to say what folks want from LW. They are a full range of readers/writers and they want a full range of what can be available. Why can't you folks get this through your heads and leave everyone else the hell alone without telling them what to read/write--in any category?

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First of all, sr, no one is telling anyone what to read or what to write...with the exception of you. This is a forum in which ideas and opinions are discussed. If you don't want to join the discussion, fine-bow out, but don't tell others they don't have the right to their own opinions.

laptopwriter said:

First of all, sr, no one is telling anyone what to read or what to write...with the exception of you.

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Bullshit.

sr71plt said:

Do you have some sort of statistical proof of this across the story set? What it tells me is that you are making assumptions on the basis of what you want to see.

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I believe it's fair to ask you the same question...again. The last time, you responded by asking me if I ever bother to read the Looking for a Story subforum. Uh, no, I don't. That's apparently the source of your assumptions.

Is that your statistical proof? Rhetorical question. I know the answer.

rj

rjordan said:

I believe it's fair to ask you the same question...again. The last time, you responded by asking me if I ever bother to read the Looking for a Story subforum. Uh, no, I don't. That's apparently the source of your assumptions.

Is that your statistical proof? Rhetorical question. I know the answer.

rj

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I don't have statistical proof of anything. I've been saying that no one else has it either. (RR is the closest to one who would have anything approaching it and he's pretty much saying the same I've said--when I've only been questioning claims by amateur writing snobs of what the supposedly "literary" goal of writing and reading is--or should be--on Literotica).

That Literotica accepts no sex stories (although no bellwether of being literary--no sex stories can be as much garbage as any other category) is just a confirmation of what I've been saying that it caters to a wide variety of interests--because it also accepts incest stories, which very few other sites does, and it's pretty tongue in cheek about accepting pure stroke, rape, and other edgy categories as well (nonconsent, fetish categories, even gratuitous violence and snuff, etc.).

So what you're saying then, sr, is that unless an individual has statistical proof to back up a claim, that person is not entitle to an opinion.

Sure, and to have that opinion countered in support of free and open reading and writing on Literotica, within the rules set by Literotica (which are slacker in reality than stated, which isn't a bad move for a erotica/porn site to make).

Of course experienced writers would know how to make clear it was an opinion (and also would realize that they wouldn't express it at all unless they were trying to sell it as behavior of others.)

Trying to determine anything within the confines of LW is most likely a fool's errand. The amount of blood in the water on any given day probably skews things dramatically.

A good example is DWornock ( I think I spelled that right ) who went through the LW list voting and commenting on thousands of stories alphabetically in a streak a couple of years back. Right behind him were a dozen people voting and commenting on everything he commented on.

That's just one of the more dramatic examples. I see the same thing happening all the time. One comment on something ( even if it's years old ) typically leads to more. Often, at least one of those follow-ups is obviously ( or openly stated to be ) nothing more than a counter to the previous comment.

The constant state of warfare within the category makes it all but impossible to gauge reader preferences, because they're drowned out by the barrage of votes and counter-votes, comments and counter-comments.

rjordan said:

The argument many picked up was more the one from TexRad than from FantasyXY.

If a story lacks drama, it is not a story. So Tex's statement is saying readers don't care about the story. They only want to get off.
rj

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That is not what i said and apparently you've never read any of my stories. I don't know where you got the idea I was talking about stroke stories. In fact I wasn't talking about stories at all but about readers. Readers come here for the same thing as they go to porn sites for. How literate a story is or not has no bearing on it as long as it fits their sexual mood at the moment.

So quit trying to put your ideas and words into other peoples writings. I've written for LW and it certainly wasn't a stroke story and had drama you can't imagine if you haven't read it.

RejectReality said:

But, they're still looking for sex. If they weren't looking for sex, they wouldn't be here. There is no reason for a person to come here looking for a drama, or a sci-fi epic, or even a romance unless they also want it to include detailed sex. There are just as many venues for non-sexual versions of such stories as there are porn sites for the flip side..

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In my experience, and not in LW;

Long stories rate high.

Stories with good plot but light sex rate ok, 4.6s.

Stories with lots of hot sex and shaky plot rate pretty well, 4.7s.

Hot sex, great plot: 4.8+ until the haters find you. Eventually 4.8 again.

Moral: plot matters. Sex matters more. Orgasms from readers get you 5s. Excellent char development, clever plot, tight use of language... Gets a 5 from some folk. And a 3 from others.

This isn't a Literature site.

RejectReality said:

If you get a good score and critical acclaim for a story on Lit that either has very little or no sex in it, it's despite that, and not because of it.

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I'm not sure how to reconcile that with some of the comments that I already posted. Perhaps my reading comprehension is lacking, but it really looks to me as if some of these readers are specifically saying they enjoyed the slow pacing and the development of themes other than the sex.

Saying that such stories succeed "despite" the low sex content is like saying "Coke is successful despite not being steak". It misses the point; they're different products that scratch different itches and they're rated by different criteria. People who drink Coke aren't thinking "well I wish this was meatier, but I guess it'll do". Even the many who like Coke and steak probably don't want their Coke with chunks of steak floating in it.

Lit readers have varied tastes. "Sex-heavy stories" is a very popular taste but it's also a very well-served taste; the feedback I get suggests that there's an under-served readership for slower-paced stories with less sex, and I see that with other authors who work in that sort of area.

People come here to be sexually stimulated. If they find something more, that's a by-product of their search, not the reason for it.

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Probably true. But I question the implication that putting lots of sex in a story is the only way to provide that stimulation.

Some people are aroused simply by the sight of naked flesh, or people fucking. That's great for them, but on its own, it leaves me cold. For me it takes emotional context to make it erotic, and I don't need a lot of graphic description to achieve that; I've had enough sex in my life that I can fill in those blanks for myself if need be. But my libido don't want none unless you've got emotional depth to that desire.

Bramblethorn said:

the feedback I get suggests that there's an under-served readership for slower-paced stories with less sex, and I see that with other authors who work in that sort of area.

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I don't see it as being underserved--certainly not with all of the posters on the forum who opine that this is (or should be) a New Yorker-style Web site (although I just don't think they're not taking into account their numbers against the some 60,000 folks who have posted stories to Lit.). I think it may be a problem of finding the slower-paced stories with less sex amid all of those other sex-based stories some folks here don't seem to want to acknowledge exist here in overwhelming abundance.

It, of course, is just an observation over time on my own story file, although 782 stories across more than twenty categories is a pretty study good set, but my literary works--and I do write them and do know how to write them--never get the votes or ratings or views that my highly sex-scened stories do (even though I usually try to give these a strong plot too). And doing much of anything experimental? Forgetaboutit. Not that that stops me from writing whatever my Muse drops on me.

A good cut at this if you are interested in collecting general impressions would be to run down the top 250 favorite authors list to see what they generally write (I trust they won't all--or even mostly--be literary writers). And maybe go read a story or two--any story or two--of the over 2,000 stories of the most productive author here, Samuel X. Again, methinks some posters to the forum just don't "get it" on the bulk of the users--both readers and writers--on this site are reading/writing.

TxRad said:

So quit trying to put your ideas and words into other peoples writings. I've written for LW and it certainly wasn't a stroke story and had drama you can't imagine if you haven't read it.

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I apologize. You're right. I've never finished one of your stories.

rj

rjordan said:

I apologize. You're right. I've never finished one of your stories.

rj

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Apparently a lot of other readers have finished his 208 stories, judging from all the red Hs and blue Ws. And I don't see a single one where he felt compelled to turn the voting off for some reason.

It's "despite" because the large numbers of people looking for something to quickly get off to don't ever see the voting or comment form, they back-click when they see the number of pages at the bottom and no indication the sex is happening any time soon.

This is a porn site. There are ads for live adult cams or sex toys at the top and bottom of every page. You can argue -- and I agree -- that people who come here are looking for something more than the standard, bare-bones porn flick plot, but trying to say drama is the primary draw of any group of readers or category on Lit ignores what it is.

The other sites where I post have sister sites dedicated to non-erotic works. For the most part, they have the exact same authors, and sometimes even feature the same stories -- either because they were non-erotic in the first place, or with the sex trimmed out.

They're ghost towns by comparison, and only survive because of the revenue from the porn site.

There's a reason there's a titty bar on every corner, and burlesque clubs are rare. When people go looking for sexual stimulation, most don't want half-measures or much of a wait for it.

Lit is no different. It just happens to be a big enough and successful enough titty bar that they can afford to cater to niche customers, as well as the crowds coming through the door who actually keep the lights on.