Cheated? Only if they cheat themselves. Some poems come without gift wrapping, and are easily appreciated, but some take a little, or a lot, of unwrapping. I generally prefer the latter.
Cheated? Only if they cheat themselves. Some poems come without gift wrapping, and are easily appreciated, but some take a little, or a lot, of unwrapping. I generally prefer the latter.
AlwaysHungry
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Maybe I'll venture into the fray. I think that the job of the poet is to rummage around in his or her personal passions, and then willfully make a groundbreaking scientific discovery there, find a way to intervene intellectually on all that emotion and transform it into something that communicates a universal truth that is accessible to all that read it. Maybe that's it. It seems plausible to me at the moment.
pelegrino
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I go along with that in general but perhaps using a few different words here and there. "scientific" is a word for academics and analysts of art, I'd still say "artistic discovery" and the measure to which it becomes universal we could call the measure of success. Intellectual intervention on emotional states is definitely
a necessary process and without it not much can be done. In that aspect some poets are naturally better positioned than others to "intervene" successfully, for example epic poets are better positioned than lyrical ones, without saying that success in either case is guaranteed.
AlwaysHungry
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Well, you see, Pelegrino, I'm stuck in the past, several hundreds of years ago, which is why I like the word "scientific." Take this drawing by Leonardo, of vortices in water; would you describe it as "science", or as "fine art"?
My particular hobbyhorse is that when von Savigny and his ilk forcibly separated human creative activity into "science" and "art", they produced sterile, mechanistic science, and muddled, self-indulgent art.
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AlwaysHungry
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One of my most beloved poems: science, or art?
John Keats. 1795–1821
On first looking into Chapman's Homer
MUCH have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne:
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez, when with eagle eyes
He stared at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.
John Keats. 1795–1821
On first looking into Chapman's Homer
MUCH have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne:
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez, when with eagle eyes
He stared at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.
butters
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my one real problem with this is your 'accessible to all'.
i've no time for those holding themselves in lofty towers defending pretentious sacred cows of poeticisms - but there will always be those who don't get the nuances of a poem, its allusions and craft: sometimes it's a cultural thing, a geographical thing, or a not having read the same material thing.
i write by the seat of my pants (quit sniggering, mags) and often miss allusions to the classical poets, lots of american/non-brit history... but, even so, a well-written poem will almost always engage me at some level - be that imagery, sound, or other poetic crafting. when i write, i'll write what needs to be written (for me) and with little consideration for a reader's level of poetic development/understanding. to write with the idea in mind that i need to write to the lowest common denominator is alien as well as abhorrent to me. i want to write well enough that everyone gets 'something' from reading my stuff, but i don't think it unreasonable to expect a reader to be prepared to do a little digging if they want to discover something... it's what i do if i read something i'm unfamiliar with, and find the process of unwrapping the mysterious a reward in itself.
AlwaysHungry
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Fair enough -- let me revise that, then, to "accessible to all who are prepared to do a little digging." It would be a shallow poem indeed that revealed all its secrets on the first read.
butters
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Magnetron
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Magnetron
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That reads S-N-I-G-G-E-R for the benefit of any illiterates like JBJ.
Magnetron
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Well, you see, Pelegrino, I'm stuck in the past, several hundreds of years ago, which is why I like the word "scientific." Take this drawing by Leonardo, of vortices in water; would you describe it as "science", or as "fine art"?
My particular hobbyhorse is that when von Savigny and his ilk forcibly separated human creative activity into "science" and "art", they produced sterile, mechanistic science, and muddled, self-indulgent art.
I would describe it as a bowl full of pubic hair.
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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Youre all wrong. Poems aren't puzzles in the Sunday TIMES. If people wanna scratch their heads they can read James Joyce, no one has cracked his code as yet.
Bottomline, BUTTERS, you got no point to make, no truth, no new viewpoint. You got a word bag.
Magnetron
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She's got top hats full of fuzzy bunnies.
You've got smoke blowing out of your a-hole.
pelegrino
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pelegrino
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pelegrino
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Don’t know 'bout science or art, but I think you've got the know how (at appreciating)!
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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blah, blah, blah We all know BUTTERS fulla shit, no one reads poems to figger out their puzzles. She's speaking of what I call BRUCE JENNER poems. That's when you put your hand up the poem's skirt and get a surprise.
pelegrino
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The surprise element depends at what point in time you put your hand up, what you expect to discover and how pleased or otherwise you may be with the discovery.
But why should you be doing this in the first place? Are you a perverted follower of poetry or what?
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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I just wrote a 7K story about a guy who fucks gals with mastectomies.
butters
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*doffs topper... fuzzy kitty falls out*
oops!
never know when you'll need a shovelWhat... again!
people have stood still long enough for him to get his hand up anywhere? are they masochists?
he's just jumping up and down screaming 'look at me!'
Mayberrygirl
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Ahhh geez...Y'all areh much to cerebral and talented for me to play with. But I do get a lick.. err kick out of watching the action.. Is it ok if I just lurk over here on the bench? Cheapest and best entertainment in town!!
pelegrino
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Ahhh geez...Y'all areh much to cerebral and talented for me to play with. But I do get a lick.. err kick out of watching the action.. Is it ok if I just lurk over here on the bench? Cheapest and best entertainment in town!!
Welcome to this café au lait-JBJ benevolent found-hummerhouseofhorrorspoetrythread, Mayberrygirl.
Glad you're enjoying the action. Take care though, he's lurking about too… god knows for what.
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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*doffs topper... fuzzy kitty falls out*
oops!
never know when you'll need a shovel
people have stood still long enough for him to get his hand up anywhere? are they masochists?
he's just jumping up and down screaming 'look at me!'
I was born with a thing or two girls like to look at.
Magnetron
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Vestigial tale and conjoined mummified fetus.
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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Ahhh geez...Y'all areh much to cerebral and talented for me to play with. But I do get a lick.. err kick out of watching the action.. Is it ok if I just lurk over here on the bench? Cheapest and best entertainment in town!!
The poetry board is LITs petting zoo.
