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Is there an inherent inferiority/superiority to PYL/pyl?

Sir_Winston54 said:
Why do some people consider this a truism?

Discuss and defend your point of view.
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I dont.

I see people as superior or inferior depending on how they act not what side of flogger they are on. If someone gives me a reason to respect them and look up to them, I feel they are superior. If someone is stupid or obnoxious I think them inferior. What they or think of themselves, or what everyone else thinks of them matters nothing to me. I make my own conclusions and who is dominant or submissive is totally irrelevant for that.
 
I don't see myself as inferior in any way. I am a living, productive human being who contributes to the societies that I am part of.
Inferiority suggests that I am in some way of less value, less quality to any other individual either by rite of birth, profession or financial position.

I see a D/s relationship very much as yin/yang. Without a sub, a Dom is a person who needs control and varying degrees of sadism and/or kink in their lives. To fulfil the role of Dom, they need someone who will submit to their will. To submit, an individual needs strength. Strength is certainly not an inferior characteristic.

I choose to submit to one person, because that dynamic feels right for me. I actually identify as sadomasochist these days as I also enjoy the Top side of impact play.
Does that mean when I switch, I increase in value and become, in some way, less inferior?
 
FunwithRyleigh said:
If you consider yourself submissive - you better own yourself first. Know your wants, needs, desires. Know what you can afford to give away and still be true to yourself.

If you consider yourself dominant - you better own yourself first and have your act together. Don't even consider taking someone else's life into your control if you can't manage your own. That is simply irresponsible.
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Amen, sister :heart: :)
 
ETA: I totally misunderstood Sweet Daisy Mae's question! Eliminating my entire answer.
 
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I don't consider any human being to be superior or inferior. Awe-inspiring, motivational, brilliant, obnoxious, ignorant, hateful, on incompatible with my personality? Yeah. But not less than/better than.

And if I'm referring to rank, then I'll be using "superior" and "inferior" in their noun forms. Big semantic difference when you use them as nouns vs adjectives.

Also, ES, I agree with your assessment, but pyl doesn't always mean submissive. ;)
 
KoPilot said:
He also specifically said PYL/pyl, not Dom/sub.
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You knew what she meant. You know who she is and what she was referring to from her own personal experience.

That is normally how people relate to things, is from their own personal experience. They don't always remember to be politically correct.
 
All_4_Love said:
You knew what she meant. You know who she is and what she was referring to from her own personal experience.

That is normally how people relate to things, is from their own personal experience. They don't always remember to be politically correct.
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And what do you think I'm doing? Relating using someone else's experience?

It's not being politically correct, it's a reminder that this conversation is about more than a single dynamic. Don't try to write me and my existence off as drivel. (Though what is 'political correctness' anyways but a way to keep minorities out of your discussion?)

I know exactly what ES meant, and I've done nothing but respect her tremendously since I joined the forum. My comment was meant to disentangle submission from the submissive role. You don't have to be a sub to submit.

If you'd like to follow StrayKat's example and put me on ignore because I bother you so, go right ahead.
 
KoPilot said:
And what do you think I'm doing? Relating using someone else's experience?

It's not being politically correct, it's a reminder that this conversation is about more than a single dynamic. Don't try to write me and my existence off as drivel. (Though what is 'political correctness' anyways but a way to keep minorities out of your discussion?)
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KP, I wouldn't do such a thing, write someone off and treat them as drivel. That's not who I am.

If you weren't worried about political correctness, you darn sure wouldn't be throwing words around like "minorities" and "misogyny".

People don't need constant reminders about the dynamics of these types of relationships. For Chrissake, everyone here on this thread knows their "shit"... You get what I'm saying?

I know exactly what ES meant, and I've done nothing but respect her tremendously since I joined the forum.
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If you respect her, then don't correct her about something so erroneous.

If you'd like to follow StrayKat's example and put me on ignore because I bother you so, go right ahead.
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I am not bothered by you, although I do not agree with you, but you're quite supportive of the idea that it's okay to be a nonconformist, and "fuck what other people think", right?

And I will gladly follow Stray Kat's example about quite a few things, just not that one.
 
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Seems to me that in any good relationship - vanilla or kinky - both parties are serving the other. Both are meeting needs the other has.

It just happens to be a delightfully delicious duo when two powerful people come together and one bends to the will of the other - because both want and need it.
 
FunwithRyleigh said:
It just happens to be a delightfully delicious duo when two powerful people come together and one bends to the will of the other - because both want and need it.
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I want it and need it...tremendously, in so much that it's even making me bitchy on this thread... ;)
 
All_4_Love said:
KP, I wouldn't do such a thing, write someone off and treat them as a drivel. That's not who I am.

If you weren't worried about political correctness, you darn sure wouldn't be throwing words around like "minorities" and "misogyny".
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They're just words, and they have specific meanings. You never explained to me why you were so allergic to them.

Crying political correctness is a way to aggressively forget about the experiences of people who are different than you. Part of what I do here is to remind folks that there are always exceptions to the things that they say, and that the things that they say have repercussions, and to point out how those repercussions have impacted real lives in the real world. Some people can't handle being reminded that things are complex and words can do real damage.

All_4_Love said:
If you respect her, then don't correct her about something so erroneous.
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The fact that you deem my existence "erroneous" (synonyms for "erroneous" are "mistaken", "false", "fallacious", and "untrue") belies everything else you've said. I'm putting out reminders of my existence and my dynamic. Like I said, apparently some people can't handle that.


All_4_Love said:
I am not bothered by you, although I do not agree with you, but you're quite supportive of the idea that it's okay to be a nonconformist, and "fuck what other people think", right?
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I have to be, otherwise I would quite literally be dead by now. I don't do this shit for fucking funsies, and I will fucking end you if you think otherwise.
 
KoPilot said:
They're just words, and they have specific meanings. You never explained to me why you were so allergic to them.
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I have no need to explain why I am allergic to them. I simply posted a "reminder" to you that it is a very strong word. I didn't feel that I needed to explain and I still don't. One look at the definition of misogyny should be all you need to understand my "reminder".

Crying political correctness is a way to aggressively forget about the experiences of people who are different than you. Part of what I do here is to remind folks that there are always exceptions to the things that they say, and that the things that they say have repercussions, and to point out how those repercussions have impacted real lives in the real world. Some people can't handle being reminded that things are complex and words can do real damage.
Click to expand...

KP, words do damage when they intend to be hurtful and destructive. They do not do damage by standing alone and being directly subjected to someone's personal interpretation, or by that person looking into malicious intent because of the inclusion or exclusion of certain words. That's why I said, everyone here knows. I forget the dynamics of these relationships all of the time. I don't need to be reminded. There is nothing meant by my exclusion/inclusion other than the merely innocent fact that I'm speaking from my own perspective.

The fact that you deem my existence "erroneous" (synonyms for "erroneous" are "mistaken", "false", "fallacious", and "untrue") belies everything else you've said. I'm putting out reminders of my existence and my dynamic. Like I said, apparently some people can't handle that.

I have to be, otherwise I would quite literally be dead by now. I don't do this shit for fucking funsies, and I will fucking end you if you think otherwise.
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I strongly suggest that you rethink that. Again, I don't deem your existence erroneous. I deemed the fact that you called ES out erroneous. I got defensive over her. Not that she needs my defending. I would get defensive over you, too. As a matter of fact, I have, you just didn't see it that way.

Your existence matters just as much as every other person's existence here in this forum, on your street, at your job, and in this world. You should never and will never have to defend your existence or who you are as a person with me.
 
All_4_Love said:
I want it and need it...tremendously, in so much that it's even making me bitchy on this thread... ;)
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I hope very much you find him and soon :rose:

They come when you least expect you know.

As for the bitchiness, there are some majorly bitchy people around here yet they never apologize so why should you? Its just not worth bothering :)
 
StrayKat said:
I hope very much you find him and soon :rose:

They come when you least expect you know.

As for the bitchiness, there are some majorly bitchy people around here yet they never apologize so why should you? Its just not worth bothering :)
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I am instantly happy by all of the things you've just posted here!

Meoww! :cattail:

Thank you, SK! *big hug*
 
All_4_Love said:
I have no need to explain why I am allergic to them. I simply posted a "reminder" to you that it is a very strong word. I didn't feel that I needed to explain and I still don't. One look at the definition of misogyny should be all you need to understand my "reminder".
Click to expand...

What words would you I rather use? The structures those words describe exist, and if you're the sort of person that likes to have empirical evidence to support this, it's easy to find. Academia and social science is in full support of those words being used. So I certainly hope that you don't mean to render the ideas they represent meaningless.

All_4_Love said:
KP, words do damage when they intend to be hurtful and destructive. They do not do damage by standing alone and being directly subjected to someone's personal interpretation, or by that person looking into malicious intent because of the inclusion or exclusion of certain words. That's why I said, everyone here knows. I forget the dynamics of these relationships all of the time. I don't need to be reminded. There is nothing meant by my exclusion/inclusion other than the merely innocent fact that I'm speaking from my own perspective.
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Which is why I correct. Damage happens without intent all the time. Military jargon has words for these things: collateral damage, negligent discharge, friendly fire. Manslaughter charges exist for a reason, and so on. If you accidentally hurt someone, you'd want them to point it out to you so you could apologize, no?

Not that ES did any hurt, nor is any of this actually about what she said anymore, but erasure and lack of representation is damaging, full stop. And it regularly kills.

All_4_Love said:
Your existence matters just as much as every other person's existence here in this forum, on your street, at your job, and in this world. You should never and will never have to defend your existence or who you are as a person with me.
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You're right, I shouldn't have to. But I am, and it's irritating to you.
 
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You're right, I shouldn't have to. But I am, and it's irritating to you.
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Absolutely not, KP. And, if you are going to take a stand that words hurt people and you agree that they can be destructive, then please realize how these words that you have just spoken to me are also painful and destructive. You're telling me my truth and assuming something about me as a person that is so completely opposite from what really is.

You are not irritating me, at all. I will sit here and go back and forth with you all day long, if that is what we need to do. We can even take it over to PMs. Whatever it takes for you to get that out of your head, I'm here.

KoPilot said:
If you accidentally hurt someone, you'd want them to point it out to you so you could apologize, no?
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You're damn right, and if I have said anything at all to you that has accidentally hurt you, I apologize.

We can end this now, or keep on going. It doesn't matter to me.

I am sorry if I hurt you or made you feel like you don't matter.

You can talk all kinds of crap on this forum. I will never hate you or think bad of you or feel that your thoughts, feelings, or opinions don't matter. I accept you for exactly who and what you are. That you can count on.
 
Sir_Winston54 said:
Why do some people consider this a truism?

Discuss and defend your point of view.
Click to expand...

Some people might claim this is a truism because they think it is the right thing to say. When on the receiving end of the cane, someone might just say anything! It could be a fun game, but I do not see how it would be a sustainable world view for anyone with sense or purpose in life.

I like to empower people. It's fun just to discover what a person empowered will come up with! PYL is a position *I* place someone in. It is something I give out of honor and respect, but never because I am inferior. Power taken from people who are inferior is nothing to capitalize letters over. Who gives candy to babies in the first place?
 
All_4_Love said:
We can end this now, or keep on going. It doesn't matter to me.

I am sorry if I hurt you or made you feel like you don't matter.

You can talk all kinds of crap on this forum. I will never hate you or think bad of you or feel that your thoughts, feelings, or opinions don't matter. I accept you for exactly who and what you are. That you can count on.
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Let's end it. :rose:

And you can count on the same from me. If I get mad or frustrated, it's because I have high hopes for people in general and I want them to be the best human beings they can be (according to my personal philosophy of life, of course, which is "do the least amount of harm you are capable of"). Some people need time, some people have their own completely different philosophies of life. And that's just the way it is.
 
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KoPilot said:
Let's end it. :rose:
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Deal... :rose:

And you can count on the same from me. If I get mad or frustrated, it's because I have high hopes for people in general and I want them to be the best human beings they can be (according to my personal philosophy of life, of course, which is "do the least amount of harm you are capable of"). Some people need time, some people have their own completely different philosophies of life. And that's just the way it is.
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I completely agree.

And you definitely have one unbelievably philosophical mind! Sheesh!
 
Sir_Winston54 said:
[i am submissive because i am inferior.]
Why do some people consider this a truism?

Discuss and defend your point of view.
Click to expand...


It's actually not worth discussing this, because in order to have a semi-intelligent discussion about this topic would, first of all, require the ability to see that these two statements are different:

a) I'm inferior, therefore I'm submissive.
b) I'm submissive, therefore I'm inferior.
 
Primalex said:
It's actually not worth discussing this, because in order to have a semi-intelligent discussion about this topic would, first of all, require the ability to see that these two statements are different:

a) I'm inferior, therefore I'm submissive.
b) I'm submissive, therefore I'm inferior.
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Mathematically, where A = B, B = A.
However, life isn't math. Too bad :) From a causation standpoint, neither one of your statements are equal to the statement put forth by the OP. In SW's original post, the cause is inferiority, and the effect is submission. In your statements both submission and inferiority are conditional side effects.
But I don't think that was the difference you were trying to highlight.
And why not? Why not worthy of a conversation? Do you have something better to do?

~ Nudges pile of bottle rockets closer to the fire and stand back ~
:devil:
Oh God. What's wrong with me today? :confused: :p
 
KoPilot said:
P much this.

Also I think it's very much an extension of misogyny since so many folks seem to use "sub" and "female" interchangeably.
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Normally I'd agree with this, but it really depends what echo chamber you hang out in and what the majority kink dictates. In the world at large, sure. In the subsets of the subculture I also move in, "I am male therefore inferior therefore submissive" is the cri de coeur de rigeur to mix it up a bit.

It's just as patently ridiculous, but I did mention it's a FINE way to spend an afternoon, I hope.
 
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