Lien_Geller's Story Review Thread.

Katiecat said:

Oh, I don't know about that; I've read some of your stuff, and I think your mind is pretty dirty.

Bonus points for mythology buffs: did you catch the Tantalus reference?

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No, dammit, and I should have.

Lien_Geller said:

A lot of the writing issues I mentioned in reviewing your other stories come back here immediately in full force. Ellipsis instead of commas, poor sentence structure, and bizarre use of punctuation.

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I knew the punctuation would drive you crazy; sorry for the extended torture. These stories I've posted for your review are all several years old; this one was submitted five years ago. What prompted me to put them up for review was rereading them, and thinking through what I would do differently now, or how I would edit them if I decide to pull them from this site.

Lien_Geller said:

Mine actually finishes the train of thought with a hint of humour (I hope).

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Oh, now I get it. I thought your "we plucked out of a 10 minute Google search" comment was a barb directed at me. The description of the endless boring, pointless, meetings with suits came from listening to my own beloved technogeek bitch and complain. I wrote this little fantasy so he might have something amusing to think about when he was trapped in those meetings.

Lien_Geller said:

Despite a talent with setting up scenes, you don’t spend a great deal of time on the actual sex. This is somewhat disappointing because I feel that fulfilling erotica needs a good balance between build-up and climax. If you’re going to tease, then fulfil those promises. The final anal sex scene is pretty much summed up in a single paragraph. It almost feels like you’ve lost interest!

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This is something I'm having a hard time figuring out. My stories are typically quite short, one to three pages. I really don't enjoy (or have any intention of writing) stroker quickies where the hero and heroine are described by their penis length in inches, bra size, height and weight, then they fuck like bunnies for page and a half, boom goes the dynamite, done.

I like to create characters that have personalities, complete with flaws and quirks. I try to provide a vivid setting and some sort of a back story of how they got there. I enjoy adding little touches of humor and foreshadowing. And this is erotica, so it's all leading up to sex. Maybe I'm seeing the sex scenes as a lot longer than others do? I was very puzzled when you said the sex scene was only one paragraph. This story is about 1.5 Lit pages long. I see the sex scenes starting with the lap dance he dreamed (but was it really a dream?), then after a brief interruption, the sex starts up again when she grabs him by his belt loops and badge. From that point, it's one long sex scene, interspersed with bits of dialogue while my characters caught their breath. The anal sex was just sort of the cherry on top. Analyzing (no pun intended) the word count, it looks like about 30% of the total word count describes sexual activity. Do readers see everything before that final paragraph as just build-up/foreplay?

You had a similar comment about my story "A Gift For Her Teacher", that there was all of this buildup and then the actual sex was over too briefly. I looked back over that again, and I was seeing the actual sex as starting when he pulled her on to his lap on the couch. Almost 50% of the total word count in that 1.5 page story was sexual content. At what point is it no longer foreplay and it counts as actual sex?

Maybe I'm not writing erotica. Maybe I'm writing short fiction with erotic scenes? I really don't know.

Lien_Geller said:

You could perhaps have started out with him dreaming about being hunted. Running through a forest to get away from an oncoming hunting party. Then, to foreshadow her interest in him his dream could have him entering a cheat code to spawn a bazooka or something. It’s silly, but I think it’d be more effective than your actual opening and it’d lay down hints at what’s to come. It’d also be cool if he’d been up all night playing a game against someone with a new handle he’d never seen before like “Archer302”. Again, just a small thing but it’d set up the climax much better for me without giving the game away.

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I like these ideas, and may use some of them if I pull this story and re-write.

Lien_Geller said:

All in all, I’d say that I liked the actual story but if you hadn’t asked me to review it then I wouldn’t have gotten past the first paragraph without clicking away. This kind of thing is pretty much right up my street in terms of what I’m interested in. It’s a nice idea, and I like that you’re obviously interested in that mythological element rather than just tacking it on for added impact. The whole thing could do with a decent re-write and some fleshing out, but it’s an interesting start that got me thinking about what might happen next.

Hope this was helpful!

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Myths and legends are a great interest of mine, and they are an endless source of character archetypes, plot elements, and ideas.

Yes, this has been helpful, and thanks again for your time!

Hey! Cool, just to readdress some of your thoughts…

First off, the Google search quip was definitely not a barb directed at you. Just thought it worked a hell of a lot better than “blah blah blah”.

Now let’s talk about sex. My issue here is that writing a sex scene for me has a certain rhythm. You do the tease of the build-up very well, but you skimp on the deeper stuff. People have different tastes in what they appreciate in sex, so when you’re trying to blow someone’s mind it’s best to cater to all the tastes you’re mentioning. Scene’s are also split between actions. Some people really like a good tease and foreplay, that’s fine. Some people are really into oral sex, anal sex or more kinky adventures.

When I’m writing a scene I usually consider its stages. For example: Blowjob – missionary – cowgirl – climax.

Then I consider each of those stages to make sure they’re effective in delivering the thrills I want. Be mindful that some people reading the story will probably prefer reading about the blowjob and the cowgirl more than the missionary and climax part of the proceedings. The actual anal sex part of the scene from the moment the dong is in the butt lasts only one paragraph.

I think it might be that generally speaking here on Lit, oral sex is mostly considered the prelude to the action. It can be used in other ways, but on this site if two people get alone together and tongues start-a-lickin’ then it’s considered more as a build-up. With this story, there’s no actual inserting of tab A into slot B, and instead tab A get’s crammed into hole C instead. For me, it worked as kind of a mislead in what it was building up to so when the anal scene began and finished in a paragraph I was kinda left wondering where the rest of the sex had gone. You also build up that moment in the lines before it by suggesting it’s a different kind of “main event” that her clever lovers opted for instead. So again when it only lasts for a paragraph and then immediately cuts to a different scene it becomes a bit of an anticlimax.

I’m not saying that every sex scene needs to be ninety pages long, but the more intense moments need as much effort as the teasing and the build-up. You did this much better in the oral sex scenes. Again, I think you could have fleshed them out a bit more but they’re perfectly acceptable and suitably steamy.

I also have no idea where you got the notion that I’m telling you to sacrifice character development and effective descriptive writing in exchange for more of a “stroker” as you put it. I’m sorry if it’s not what you intended to say but it kind of came off that way and so you stepped on a bit of a land mine for me there. I hate it when writers use that excuse. As if it’s some sort of deal with the devil trade-off between things like effective action and good characterisation. The one you usually hear most goes something along the lines of: “Oh I don’t care about plotting, for me it’s all about the characters.” Bollocks to that!

You can have good plotting, good action, good descriptive writing, good dialogue, good characterisation, good character development AND good erotica. There’s no trade-off. I’m not telling you to write dumbed down porn, I’m telling you to write searingly intense sex!

Anyhoo, before I break out the whips and chains for some righteous disciplining, let me just say thanks for the reply and I hope to read something newer from you soon! Especially something in the realm fantasy or sci-fi! As I said, I liked the basic concept for this one a lot.

Don't get out the whips and chains for righteous discipline, because you already told us that you aren't into that sort of thing.

I have to pause for just one moment to catch my breath because:

Lien_Geller said:

The actual anal sex part of the scene from the moment the dong is in the butt lasts only one paragraph.

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This is the funniest, most outrageous sentence I've read in a very long time.

Lien_Geller said:

I think it might be that generally speaking here on Lit, oral sex is mostly considered the prelude to the action. It can be used in other ways, but on this site if two people get alone together and tongues start-a-lickin’ then it’s considered more as a build-up. With this story, there’s no actual inserting of tab A into slot B, and instead tab A get’s crammed into hole C instead. For me, it worked as kind of a mislead in what it was building up to so when the anal scene began and finished in a paragraph I was kinda left wondering where the rest of the sex had gone. You also build up that moment in the lines before it by suggesting it’s a different kind of “main event” that her clever lovers opted for instead. So again when it only lasts for a paragraph and then immediately cuts to a different scene it becomes a bit of an anticlimax.

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I believe I understand what you are saying. I don't think of oral sex foreplay. Some of my scenes or stories have nothing but oral sex, that is the main event. I guess I don't really think much about the distinction between foreplay and sex at all. To me, almost any sexual contact that ends up with somebody getting their cookie is sex. I might need to reconsider that, since I'm not just writing these for myself.

Lien_Geller said:

I also have no idea where you got the notion that I’m telling you to sacrifice character development and effective descriptive writing in exchange for more of a “stroker” as you put it.

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No, no, no, put away the paddle. I was reflecting on the typically short length of my stories. I'm trying to cram a lot into relatively few words, so I need to refocus how I'm presenting back story, setting, and characterization, or I won't have any space left for the sex. Either that, or I need to start writing stories that are longer than a page and a half. But no, if I thought you were telling me to write "Barbie and Ken Fuck", I'd give up and go write Penthouse Letters. I wouldn't have bothered submitting these for your critique if I didn't think you give good advice.

Thanks again.

Ok then! Well if there are no other immediate takers then let’s maybe try to invert this formula. I’ve been reviewing stuff here on and off for a while now and giving praise and scathing scorn to brave author’s offering up their babies. So, since it’s only fair that I get a taste of my own medicine. Let’s see if anyone’s up for reviewing my stuff for a change.

So here’s The Missing Dragon, Unleashed, and The Warlock for your consideration. I don’t expect anyone to do all 3, but pick one you like (or loathe) and have at it.

I don’t mind getting skewered, but I’d ask that all criticism be aimed at making me better rather than making me quit. Also, I’m aware there are quite a few technical mistakes in Ch. 01 of The Missing Dragon such as the blissful ignorance of how to properly punctuate dialogue tags. I’ve learned since then, so if I’m not still making those same mistakes in Ch. 04 then there’s no need to mention them. Not unless it’s really, really funny.

Also, I’m offering up the entirety of The Missing Dragon series for review rather than just Ch. 01. I don’t really expect someone to go through the whole thing just to criticize it, but I put it up there in case there’s anyone around who’s read it already and has something to say.

I know I write pretty long stories, so I’m not expecting a huge response for this, but I just thought it’d be fun to run the gauntlet myself for a change. Anyone who’s interested? Be nice, be mean, bring it!



Oh, and yes I am aware that I often do things that I tend to shout at people for on this thread. Feel free to tell me off for them!

Lien_Geller said:

Okie doke, after a brief hiatus, here’s Katiecat’s Dream Girl.

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Didn't read the review, so not sure I'd like it... But all I did was take the link in case the review was good, & it didn't take me to the story as I expected.

D'oh!

Well spotted! Sorry about that, it was just a window mix with me browsing Bard's thread.

Fixed now!

Lien_Geller said:

Ok then! Well if there are no other immediate takers then let’s maybe try to invert this formula. I’ve been reviewing stuff here on and off for a while now and giving praise and scathing scorn to brave author’s offering up their babies. So, since it’s only fair that I get a taste of my own medicine. Let’s see if anyone’s up for reviewing my stuff for a change.

So here’s The Missing Dragon, Unleashed, and The Warlock for your consideration. I don’t expect anyone to do all 3, but pick one you like (or loathe) and have at it.

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Turnabout's fair play! Probably won't have the time to do the whole thing, but I'll try a bit of The Warlock and comment as I go. Disclaimers: I get very fussy about small things, and I'm not so great at saying "I liked this bit" so you'll probably hear more negatives than positives.

My name's Wilfred Tennamont and I am a warlock. I thought I should probably put that out there, right up front. I'm not a wizard, I'm not a mage, and I'm not your fucking fairy godfather. What I do is painful, ruthless, and often quite mean spirited. I deal with demons on a daily basis, and those are some of my more polite meetings. If you ever meet me, chances are you've hit rock bottom and the only thing you've got left to give is your battered and bruised soul. Well guess what? I'm buying.

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Most of this paragraph reads like you're aiming to establish Wilfred as confident and abrasive. But the second sentence weakens that. "I thought", "probably" - these are words of uncertainty. (I do this a lot in my own writing and then have to go back excising them.)

Taking the rest of it into account, I suspect perhaps that bit is intended to be taken as sarcasm. That would work later in the story, but here in the second sentence we don't yet know Wilfred well enough to get that. I have to read around and then come back to this sentence to judge that, and that breaks my flow.

Well, since I'm a stand up guy

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"Stand-up guy", I think.

It was obvious from looking at the first page that this was no mere history book or any new age hippy crap. This was an instruction manual on the subject of dark magic. Honestly? I know it sounds corny, but it really was one of the most beautiful things I'd ever seen. The ebon cover was utterly blank and yet, once opened, the book displayed finely shaped words set in jet black ink that weaved their way across luxurious, thick pages that were yellowed with age. An intricate, hand-drawn border lined every page with dark patterns that vaguely resembled long, thorny vines, interlacing together in wicked shapes.

I looked at the words but couldn't make any sense of them.

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This one broke my flow again. When you say "It was obvious from looking at the first page... this was an instruction manual on the subject of dark magic", the most obvious interpretation for me was that there are words on that page to tell him that. Then a paragraph down I find that he can't understand the words at all... wait, how did he know what this was about?

Going back, I can see a couple of other ways to read this. Perhaps he's figured it out from the artwork (how does this guy know the difference between a real black-magic manual and the average heavy metal album cover?) Or perhaps the "this was an instruction manual" bit is a statement about something he figured out later in the narrative, not on the first page. I can think of explanations, but the point is, I shouldn't have to go back and correct my interpretation. Not unless you're working in a genre where confounding the reader is the aim, e.g. a whodunnit.

There are various ways you could handle this, but my preferred solution would be to snip the whole "this was an instruction manual" sentence. You don't need it. Not only does it hurt the flow, but it weakens my connection with Wilfred here. Let me encounter the book as he does, one element at a time, rather than summarising it up front.

More later, perhaps; family just showed up.

Bramblethorn said:

Turnabout's fair play! Probably won't have the time to do the whole thing, but I'll try a bit of The Warlock and comment as I go. Disclaimers: I get very fussy about small things, and I'm not so great at saying "I liked this bit" so you'll probably hear more negatives than positives.

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OK, continuing:

I quickly rushed up through the building

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Tautology, kill it with fire.

Skin of smooth, luscious alabaster covered her wonderful womanly figure.

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This reads oddly - "covered" makes it sound as if she's wearing a skin like a shawl or something, over her (skinless?) body. That would be a neat visual for a demon, very Clive Barker, but I don't think it's what you had in mind.

Escape from the binding circle: nice twist there, didn't see that setup.

The problem with dealing in the souls of street hookers is that not many have much of a soul to begin with. Now, I'm not launching a crusade or anything here, you do what you have to survive. I get that. It's just that spending all night getting slammed by sweaty Johns and all day doped up to the eyeballs isn't very good for the soul.

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This left something of a bad taste in my mouth. It just felt too close to authorially-sanctioned dehumanisation of sex workers; that's a pervasive enough problem IRL that I don't need it showing up in fiction.

What I'd grabbed from the back of the car was a freshly-wrapped red rose. This, along with my words, seemed to take her somewhat off guard and a lot of the anger and suspicion faded to a sort of reluctant acquiescence.

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Olivia isn't working for me. She's a police officer, she's been chosen to work as bait in a hunt for a serial killer, presumably she's not stupid enough to trust everything people tell her. And while she's hanging out undercover with sex workers, looking for a serial killer who targets sex workers, a weird guy comes up and shows her that he's a real-live warlock who's tricked her into signing away her soul...

If it were me, I'd be STRONGLY considering whether this guy might be the very same killer she's looking for. I get her going along with the date, she may be desperate to get her soul back - but she's just too quick to trust a guy who's given her a lot of reason for paranoia.

Even if she knew he wasn't the killer, I'd expect her to be really uncomfortable about the fact that he's got hold of her soul; she freaks out at first, but by the time it gets around to the date, the tension just isn't at the level it should be.

OK, finished it. The bit at the club was good in itself, but the structure didn't quite work for me. If Sexy Love Interest mentions a serial killer early in the story, and Resourceful Protagonist volunteers to help crack the case, I expect the author to do something with that subplot! You just left that hanging with no further mention. It felt as if you started this with a more complex/extended plot in mind and then partway through you decided to cut it down and focus more on the sexual elements, but didn't quite clean up the loose ends.

...and I see almost all my comments are negative. I really didn't hate it! If there was a Part 2 I'd be interested in reading it. But there were things that could have worked better for me than they did.

Thanks Bramblethorn! You picked up on some things there that really hit home.

Most of this paragraph reads like you're aiming to establish Wilfred as confident and abrasive. But the second sentence weakens that. "I thought", "probably" - these are words of uncertainty. (I do this a lot in my own writing and then have to go back excising them.)

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This was less about making the character uncertain and more about establishing a more casual voice to the reader. I also wanted to have a slight pause between his introduction and the more brutal explanation of his job that follows. I see your point, but I see mine more.

The point about the book not making sense to him was completely spot-on though. Dunno how the hell that got in there. I sometimes leave my stories mid-paragraph and then skim-read on the pick-up and as a result things can get overlooked! Totally agree though, that’s me being a dumbass.

Tautology, kill it with fire.

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Agree with this, was this a relatively minor occurrence in the story or did you see it repeated? I try to get rid of stuff like this in my own edits. Sometimes things get missed but if it’s a bigger problem than I realise then I’d like to know so I can target it in future.

This left something of a bad taste in my mouth. It just felt too close to authorially-sanctioned dehumanisation of sex workers; that's a pervasive enough problem IRL that I don't need it showing up in fiction.

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Ok, for anyone who hasn’t read the Warlock, can I just say there that I do think that quote you brought up taken out of context of the story makes it sound a hell of a lot worse than it actually is? A soul in the world of The Warlock isn’t exactly the same thing as a conventional soul in general fiction. It’s more of a magical power plant that’s encouraged by creativity, imagination and a consistent level of contentment and happiness in life. The entire story is also told in the first person in a similar tone.

That being said, I do think you have a point here. When I wrote this I was kind of redefining a soul and I thought about the kinds of people that would have more powerful and less powerful ones. I wasn’t remotely thinking about the issue you brought up and that kind of ignorance can be hurtful. For the record, I don’t have anything at all against sex workers of any sort. What people do with their bodies is their business, not mine.

The stuff you mention about Olivia is a point well taken. I was hoping that Wilfred’s little magical demonstration was enough to convince her that if he wanted to hurt her he was more than capable of doing it. Instead he’s more interested in her soul and learning how to interact with people, especially attractive older women.

Still, you’re not wrong about the serial killer sub-plot floundering about. I wrote this story a lot more off the cuff than I usually write my other work. It’s sort of a doodle between my other stories, and I do think it’s definitely the weakest of the ones I offered up (except maybe the opening chapter of TMD). I’m not saying that to negate the criticism, but my mind tends to wander a bit more with it as it’s not written with an ending in mind. It’s focused more on recounting interesting little parts of Wilfred’s life.

So nicely done for calling me out on it! I’ll double check for loose plot threads in the next one! Thanks again for taking a look at it.

Anyone else wanna try me?

Lien_Geller said:

Agree with this, was this a relatively minor occurrence in the story or did you see it repeated? I try to get rid of stuff like this in my own edits. Sometimes things get missed but if it’s a bigger problem than I realise then I’d like to know so I can target it in future.

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It wasn't a recurring thing that I noticed. There were a couple of other spots where the word choices seemed slightly off for one reason or another, I'd have flagged them for attention if I was editing, but nothing major.

Ok, for anyone who hasn’t read the Warlock, can I just say there that I do think that quote you brought up taken out of context of the story makes it sound a hell of a lot worse than it actually is? A soul in the world of The Warlock isn’t exactly the same thing as a conventional soul in general fiction. It’s more of a magical power plant that’s encouraged by creativity, imagination and a consistent level of contentment and happiness in life. The entire story is also told in the first person in a similar tone.

That being said, I do think you have a point here. When I wrote this I was kind of redefining a soul and I thought about the kinds of people that would have more powerful and less powerful ones. I wasn’t remotely thinking about the issue you brought up and that kind of ignorance can be hurtful.

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Yeah, I didn't take it as an intentional statement against sex workers. More like falling into a well-worn trope that has unpleasant baggage - have a look at TVTropes' Disposable Sex Worker article and you'll see what I mean.

Re. creativity and imagination - Maya Angelou worked as a prostitute for a spell before she became famous for a wide range of creative endeavours. Clive Barker couldn't support himself on writing, early in his career, so he hustled on the side even while writing some of his most inventive work, books like "The Hellbound Heart" and "Weaveworld".

Ok, now I’m getting reminded that prostitutes are people too. I do not need to be reminded of that! I’m also aware of the trope, thank you very much!

I’m certainly not saying that sex workers can’t be interesting, creative and generally vibrant people. I was just trying to point out that people with “smaller” souls in The Warlock aren’t necessarily bad people, or people to be looked down upon. They’re just people who are “spiritually” or consistently physically exhausted. An overworked teacher who can’t focus on their students. A night watchman who keeps uneven hours and spends most of the night watching TV. An athlete who’s pushing themselves too hard. These would also be people who (generally speaking) might be prone to having smaller souls.

That teacher might be valiantly trying to work against budget cuts in their school. The athlete might have worked all their life for the opportunity in front of them. The night watchman might be working those long hours to support a family he loves. Again, these aren’t bad people but in the context of The Warlock their souls wouldn’t have the kind of juice Wilfred is after.

On the other hand: A successful rock musician sleeping with his best friend’s wife and happily getting away with it. A student throwing away every opportunity their parents worked so hard to get for them in order to contentedly party and have a “college experience”. A priest who runs a cult that worships an evil god whom enjoys the occasional human sacrifice. These sorts of people could have very large and powerful souls in the context of the story.

I’ll say again that I do agree with you that I don’t think I successfully put that across as effectively as I could have. Especially not in the moment you refer to. Stuff like this shouldn’t be just thrown out there without more thought and consideration. I was trying to write a character who is a bit of an asshole and didn’t think about the bigger picture.

The truth is that I was wanting a foil for Wilfred. Someone with a strong moral compass to challenge him a little. I also happened to be watching a TV show called Dexter at the time in which a very attractive female detective happened to be posing as a prostitute as a part of the vice squad. I’d been thinking about ideas for the character I needed, watched that scene and then figured: “Huh, guess that’s a start.”

Then I went from there with Olivia. So the whole prostitution and serial killer element of this story isn’t about a condemnation of sex workers so much as it is about me being a lazy writer and thinking Jennifer Carpenter is pretty darn cute.

Anyhoo, with genuine respect and thanks I really don’t need to be reminded that sex workers can be awesome people. Ever since I saw a video of Jenna Jameson singing “Happy Birthday Mr. President” into a guy’s bell-end I’ve known their awesomeness.

I’m happy to be skewered for bad writing, but I’m really not that much of an asshole.

Honest!

Lien_Geller said:

Ok, now I’m getting reminded that prostitutes are people too. I do not need to be reminded of that! I’m also aware of the trope, thank you very much!

Honest!

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I'm starting to give the warlock a read, but as far as dehumanizing prostitutes for a story (not saying you did), if it's interesting, I have no problem with it. I don't stand around thinking of prostitutes, but after watching the Bunny Ranch and Hookers at the point or even the show cops, I get what your character was saying about them without feeling outrage or distaste (there is an entire spectrum of prostitutes in the world, but the term 'street walker' usually denotes the bottom of the barrel ... your story isn't a dissertation, but a work of fiction, I didn't read your personal feelings in those few lines.

The complaint from Bramblethorn (by the way, I really enjoyed Red Callum, Sweet Cate) seemed more of a personal opinion/preference.

I'm not much of a technical critic, but when I'm done I can tell you if I enjoyed the story and the way you write or if I didn't.

Here's another of mine to look over, Lien. And I'll do the same for one of yours, if you'd like.

Ginny 555-1324

Okay, you've been kind enough to review a few of my stories, so I'll take the plunge.

I read "Unleashed". You have 192 comments on this story, and I believe every one of them was positive. What more could I add? What more should I add?

Well, I already jumped in the pool -- sink or swim.

I liked the concept a lot. Excellent choice for a Halloween contest, and despite all of the various plot elements, Non-Human is definitely the most fitting category.

The characters were sympathetic and likable. Larry and Jenny are the only ones who are really fleshed out, but they are the main focus of the story. It's 14 Lit pages long, but it's not a novel, so it's totally understandable and appropriate.

The resolution to the story was well done. I read one comment that it reminded the reader of An American Werewolf In London, but I only saw that once a long time ago, so I don't know if there were any similarities. I saw it as a unique and interesting plot and ending.

Swimming to the deep end, now. I don't know what kind of criticism I can offer, but these are the thoughts that came up as I read.

There were a lot of details brought up that seemed really random. As a reader, I try to file those away, thinking they will come up later, that they will be significant. Some of them were just odd or unnecessary.

In a scene where Larry is getting ready to jack-off to a porn magazine, why do we need to focus on his teddy bear, Mr. Splodge? Combining the images of masturbation and a stuffed animal made me wonder what exactly was splodged on that teddy bear, and I really didn't want to think about that.

The descriptions of Jenny's old boyfriends seemed a little forced. "First there was Jake, the football player, who was interesting in the same way that I'm an enormous fluffy chicken. By the way, I know I haven't told you how I look yet, but I'm not known for clucking or laying eggs. Then there came Timothy, never Tim, always Timothy. He was a crazy person. No, he really was. He got expelled in the middle of last year when he tried to set his own hair on fire." Neither of these characters come up again. I would have expected more info on Stuart, maybe some hint that even though Jenny considered they were no longer a couple, Stuart had other ideas.

There are other character interactions or descriptions that don't further the story a lot. The description of the neighbor who talks to Larry in the restaurant as a MILF, and the sexy French teacher we don't even meet, both of those seem to be gratuitous. He already has an incredibly gorgeous, intensely horny girlfriend he's loved from afar forever, so the description of how sexy these other women are seems unnecessary. If he was going to fuck these other women, then it would be important, but would also be a different story. The gypsy at the New Age shop is more significant, and ties in better to the plot. She tempts him to test him, at least that's the impression I got.

This first scene is interrupted with three phone calls; the calls from his parents don't further the story, but the call from Mrs. Taylor starts the plot rolling. Larry's joke with his father about a unicorn attacking him with glitter, the large fluffy chicken musing, his Game Boy under the bed next to the porno mags and teddy bear, his love of Star Wars, his parents being overprotective and their disapproving attitude about sex (even to the point of policing his computer use), all paint a picture of a young man who is extremely sheltered and although he is 18, mentally he is still very young.

The description of Jenny as extremely pretty, blonde, blue-eyed, perfect figure, tan all over because she sunbathed nude, used to date a football player -- made me think, "Larry, buddy, she's way out of your league." I had a hard time imagining her hanging out with a nerdy guy friend, discussing Star Wars.

I can understand why Jenny's parents would hope that she and Larry would get together. They knew Larry was a good friend, and she dated one guy who set his hair on fire, and a biker who was an alcoholic drug addict. I do think it's a bit of a stretch for them to be okay with her having sex with him under their roof. Maybe her parents are extremely progressive, but kind, little, portly Mrs. Barbara Taylor who sounds like everybody's grandma and her blue-collar construction worker husband don't seem to be the liberal type. You could have cut out the phone calls with Larry's parents and instead had an effective scene with Larry afraid her dad will be pissed at him for being in Jenny's bed, and her dad talking about why they are glad Jenny finally came to her senses, dumped the scary biker, and that there was a good, kind, upstanding guy waiting for her all along. And then a stern warning that they damn well better be using condoms, because he's a dad, after all.

I think the werewolf reveal was too sudden, and both characters immediately came to that conclusion, just based on her intense emotions, her horniness, and that the animal bite healed so rapidly. You could have let that go a little longer before they figured it out; although it's a Halloween story in the Non-Human category and the readers know up front, it would have been fun to see the characters take a while to realize what has happened. The restaurant scene where she packed away the huge meal was quite effective. It would have been interesting to see Larry's reaction to her appetite if he didn't know what she was becoming. It could have also been effective for Larry to put two and two together after the scene where Jenny beats up Stuart; it might have been interesting to see Larry puzzled and concerned about Jenny's superhuman strength and ferocity. I could see them cozied up on the sofa watching late night "Creature Feature", and Jenny is falling asleep on his shoulder, while he watches an old Lon Chaney film, and it slowly dawns on him what exactly might have bitten Jenny. He elbows her to wake her up, she sleepily starts watching what's happening on screen, and when the commercial comes on, they stare at each other in stunned silence.

Sorry, not rewriting your story, my brain just went there. Maybe I'll write a werewolf story sometime and use that as my revelation.

You write great sex scenes, very detailed and hot. For an 18 year old virgin, no mention of a girlfriend at all before Jenny, and parents who are very repressive and anti-sex, Larry seems a bit too confident and experienced, especially at first. She's obviously very experienced, and that alone should have rattled his confidence a bit. It was a very good sex scene, but some awkwardness or uncertainty on Larry's part could have added additional humor, sweetness, and realism to their first time.

"I had to help Jenny dress. She instinctively didn't want to use her hands, and the giant claws on her fingertips made her a great deal less nimble than usual. It wasn't exactly a chore. I had a hard time not nibbling or kissing any of that lean figure of hers as I covered her up. "

It's a fantasy/sci-fi story, but this is totally unrealistic. I don't care how cute and sexy she is, or that he is a horny 18 year old boy who recently got laid for the first time -- they both just saw her hands transformed into vaguely human-shaped bestial things, sprouting hair and wicked looking black claws. It completely freaked her out and she was screaming in horror. This is not a time he would be thinking sexy thoughts.

This is kind of the point where I feel like I'm reading two different stories. Up until now, it's felt like a comedy, like there would be a laugh track if it was playing on TV. I've had flashes of The Addams Family, The Munsters, Leave it to Beaver, The Shaggy Dog, Scooby Doo, Love Potion #9, and I Was A Teenage Werewolf. Now, the scales are tipping toward true horror. Was the shift in tone intentional? Does it work? It does, but it's definitely a different feel for the story, a different mood. You did a good job dropping little sinister hints and foreshadowing, so the reader should be expecting it.

I don't know if any of that will be helpful for you; it's not a true critique, just really my random thoughts as a reader. All in all, this was a good read, lots of fun, and I enjoyed it.

Hey there Katiecat! Thanks for the thoughts. It’s great to get this sort of feedback and moment-to-moment reaction from the reader.

I’ll just go from thought to thought and check up on some things with you.

…why do we need to focus on his teddy bear, Mr. Splodge?

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The idea behind that was that he was rummaging around under his bed that has accumulated a horde of junk over the years. He uses the old bear to mark his stash amidst the chaos. Nothing more!

The explanation of Jenny’s ex-boyfriends was meant to both add a little humour to the proceedings and explain that she didn’t exactly have great taste in men. I think Stuart could have been fleshed out more as a character though. I just didn’t really have the time and what I had worked for what I wanted to do. It was always more about the relationship between Larry and Jenny, but you’re right that Stuart could have been more than he was.

In regarding the other women that Larry meets in the story, they were kind of there to show how much Jenny means to him. The other women he’d once fantasised about sort of paled in comparison to the stuff he got up to with her. I also tend to write stories with one guy and more than one girl, so they were also there to buck the trend so to speak.

You’re right that Larry is a sheltered guy, but he’s also just a bit of a nerd too. The unicorn and the chicken comparisons are just there for absurdity. Like the bear, the game boy is under his bed next to other forgotten parts of his childhood so if anything that was supposed to make him feel older. Oh, and I’m 29 and I love Star Wars!

The story is sort of a coming of age tale though. I wanted to start out with a more idyllic setting to contrast it sharply with the ending. Larry’s parents shelter him and are overprotective at the start, but by the end Larry walks away from everything he knew to find the girl he loves. So quite a bit of what you mention there is meant to reflect a boy becoming a man.

As for the comment that she’s out of his league? She is definitely out of his league. Again, that’s why I set them up as two childhood friends. They have a very close friendship despite the pressures of teenage life. Again, it’s a kind of idealism designed to contrast against the tragedy of the ending.

I know that the rapid jump in conclusion from leg injury to lycanthropy is handled a little fast. To be honest, as a fan of the monster horror genre, it kind of pisses me off when things go the other way.

“Isn’t Evelyn awfully pale this morning?”
“There was a strange man sighted on the grounds last night, perhaps she saw him from her window and he gave her a start?”
“Yes, but look at those two holes in her neck.”
“Probably mosquito bites from our trip to the park yesterday.”
“Right. Now she appears to be burning up in the sun.”
“Throw a blanket over her, she’s never been a morning person.”

Y’know? I mean, if the universe you’ve set up doesn’t know anything about vampires then fine. If not, then you just paint your characters as idiots. I’ve already established that these two like watching movies together. They know about monsters. If a giant animal bit someone you knew in the middle of the night on a full moon and they miraculously healed a gouging bite wound in the space of a single day, you’re telling me you wouldn’t just double check that the silverware is genuine?

As you can probably tell by now, this is something of a pet peeve of mine. I think you’re right though that in my efforts to go the other way I overcompensated quite a bit. I do think your idea of them watching a creature feature together would have been a more effective reveal scene. I look forward to reading your werewolf story!

The moment with the hands and his naughty thoughts is actually foreshadowing. By this point, Larry has been bitten too. Good point though! I should have put more thought into it.

When it comes to the change in tone though? That was definitely intentional. Unleashed is my answer to most modern werewolf romances, and even monster romances in general. So many writers have taken up these classic monsters and changed them in ways I don’t feel remotely improve upon the originals. I’m not interested in packs and in sexy alphas looking for their “life mates” from the balcony of their multi-million dollar super-mansion. I don’t want their loyal victims (who serve because they understand the deep-seated honour of the beast) only keepsake to be a sexy scar. To me, a good werewolf story is about rage, passion, madness, and tragedy.

I’m not saying Unleashed is a masterful deconstruction of a classic monster. It’s got plenty of problems, many of which you highlighted. I do like to think of it as a nicely thrown middle finger to more traditionally modern monster romance though.

Anyhoo, I’m glad you enjoyed it! It’s probably my favourite work of my own to date. Your thoughts on it helped me see it in a new light, and that’s always helpful. Thanks!

Ginny 555-1324

After that brief interlude, let’s take a look at Tio_Narrote’s Ginny 555-1324.

Ok then, let’s look at your opening paragraph here…

It wasn't her nudity that first caught his attention as she waded into the surf. After all, it was a 'clothing optional' beach, and very few failed to exercise that option. It was her hair, he realized, the red of her locks making a sharp contrast with the green of the sea.

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Although there’s nothing garishly wrong with that, I think there’s plenty of room for improvement.

Your first sentence starts off on a negative note. It wasn’t her nudity that first caught his attention? This sort of implies in a way that she’s not all that physically attractive. I know you immediately go on to explain why, but I think the negative phrasing hurts it quite a bit. I also don’t think you need to immediately explain that it’s a nudist beach like that, since refocusing attention to her hair is more important after that opening line. The “he realized” looks kind of clunky too.

Here’s me taking a swing at it.

There are always plenty of eye-catching sights to see on a nudist beach, and not all of them pleasant or shapely. He was all too aware of this, and tended to keep his eyes fixed out on the ocean to avoid any unsightly objects waggling out from his peripheral vision. It was there where he first saw her, wading out against the sea. There wasn’t much choice in the matter with her blazing red hair contrasting so deeply against the sparkling green backdrop. She strode out there like fiery beacon, drawing his gaze to her naked body as the oncoming waves gently lapped at her figure.

Ok, so I started out there with an attempt to establish setting and immediately adding a dose of humour. A nudist beach is a pretty interesting setting for an erotic story to begin, so I figure it’s got enough legs to carry the reader’s attention into the next sentence. Then the reader gets another dose of humour, and a slight inversion of expectations as I shift to remind them that not all people are made to look good naked. Again, the reader should (hopefully) be smiling now and is suitably set up for the following contrast. The tone shifts from funny to sexy as he sees the woman with the red hair and the focus begins with how striking her hair is rather than saying her body isn’t as attention-grabbing. I focus on the imagery of contrasting sights to show how much she stands out. She’s wading out against the sea. The colour of her hair sticks out against the ocean (as you wrote). Then, just for added flavour, I added a line about the waves lapping her body for some added erotic subtext. Because that never hurts.

It’s more of a change in focus and rhythm than anything else, but I think it works much better and hopefully shows just how much a little added thought and time can work wonders in setting the reader down in the story.

Next up let’s talk about that reference.

”Like the painting by Gauguin”

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I have absolutely no bloody clue who you’re talking about there. Never heard of Gauguin before and as far as I know he’s not someone who’s common knowledge outside of art aficionados. If you’re going to do this, then at least reference what the painting is called so I can look it up if I’m interested. I Googled “Gauguin” and “Gauguin Sea” and I still have no idea about the painting you’re referring to.

Be careful with stuff like this because it can alienate readers.

That being said, I did enjoy most of the paragraph that followed it despite a few minor issues. (Will people PLEASE stop starting sentences with “And” for no reason!)

And then we get to a bigger problem.

"I've just found a woman right out of three of my favorite painters. And all of them sensuous. At least I can't see the sensuality that inspired O'Keefe, or I don't know what I'd do."

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Your general description in the narrative is alright. A few clunky sentences here and there, but nothing that makes me feel like I should really bring the hammer down on you. I do find these random interjected thoughts of the man to be quite distracting though. It brakes the style of the narration and doesn’t add a lot to the proceedings. You’re also referencing paintings and painters left, right and centre here and it comes across as quite pretentious.

Yes, you read that right. I’m telling someone off for being pretentious. It must be bad.

Oh, and that first sentence up there doesn’t make sense to me. Shouldn’t it be “paintings” rather than “painters”? Maybe it could be: “…a woman that could have inspired three of my favourite painters.” Not to mention you actually go out of your way to tell me she’s not very sensual here. It’s fine for characters not to be physically perfect but doing it like that just feels strange to me.

Next up, don’t do this:

They chatted a while about beaches and children, and even grandchildren, about politics and loneliness, and while they talked, their hunger for each other grew.

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You might as well have written “insert bonding moment here” and called it a day. If you want me to buy them connecting as a couple then you need to actually show it. Otherwise cut it out or just leave it at something like “they talked for a while” and call it a day.

After that we get a snippet of a song. It’s weird! It’s like when you want to establish some imagery or a connection you just liken it to another piece of art. Write a story, not a reference guide!

I do like the sex! It’s got some good description, a nice rhythm and good use of imagination. The writing itself also seems smoother, like you’re more comfortable writing it than you are in the rest of the story. There’s no painting references or anything like that, it’s all real and in the moment. Top stuff!

I’d say that overall I did quite like this story despite its flaws. I do have a thing for redheads. It uses some nice imagery and it’s a sweet moment shared between two people. I would like less referencing of artwork, or at least more thought put into it. If you’re going to liken someone to a work of art then that’s ok, but you need to go into more detail. Better yet, do the opposite and describe them in such a way that if the reader knows the artist they’re reminded of them. It’s not easy, but it’s way more effective in storytelling terms and requires much less use of Google image search.

If you really want to up your game I’d look more into establishing effective characterisation. I don’t think this story really needed any more than you gave on this front, but it’s always a nice thing to add. It felt more like witnessing a daydream than reading about actual people. Although as a lifelong daydreamer I can’t really hold that against you!

Lien_Geller said:

Next up let’s talk about that reference.

I have absolutely no bloody clue who you’re talking about there. Never heard of Gauguin before and as far as I know he’s not someone who’s common knowledge outside of art aficionados. If you’re going to do this, then at least reference what the painting is called so I can look it up if I’m interested. I Googled “Gauguin” and “Gauguin Sea” and I still have no idea about the painting you’re referring to.

Be careful with stuff like this because it can alienate readers.

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Just a side comment: I loved the art references; I think they give a dreamy, surreal quality to the story, like the narrator stepped into a sensual painting.

With the description of the red-headed woman in the sea, I thought of this Gauguin piece:

He painted a lot of beautiful bathers, especially in Tahiti.

Tio, have you ever read Sacre Bleu by Christopher Moore? He's one of my favorite authors. It's a funny, smart, weird, fantasy about the French Impressionists; I highly recommend it.

Hey, I just got a sort-of review request from someone named CateJ who asked for my thoughts on her story but didn't enable the option to receive PM's. So if you're seeing this Cate then give me a link to the story you want me to look at and I'll have a glance at it for you.

Oh Dear

Such a newb! Apologies and all sorted

Lien_Geller said:

Never heard of Gauguin before and as far as I know he’s not someone who’s common knowledge outside of art aficionados.

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I think this is a little harsh. I'm a STEMM major through and through, and I'm aware of Gauguin. He's not as big a name as Picasso or Van Gogh, but he's reasonably well-known. (I'd have said more so than Hopper, who I did have to look up.)

That said, I agree that it would've been helpful to name the painting. Most of what I know about Gauguin is "Frenchman who lived in Tahiti and painted the native women", and like you I wasn't enlightened by Google, so the "red hair and pale skin" bit left me confused until Katiecat posted a link to that particular work.

Oh, and that first sentence up there doesn’t make sense to me. Shouldn’t it be “paintings” rather than “painters”? Maybe it could be: “…a woman that could have inspired three of my favourite painters.” Not to mention you actually go out of your way to tell me she’s not very sensual here. It’s fine for characters not to be physically perfect but doing it like that just feels strange to me.

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It's an odd phrasing, but I read it as "right out of [the works of] three of my favorite painters" (Gauguin, Renoir, Hopper), i.e. "the sort of woman they liked to paint".

In general that would work for me, but I was still stumbling over the Gauguin/redhead bit.

Thank you, Katiecat; you did recognize the Gauguin. I'm glad you liked the story and the art references.

Thanks, Lien. I do appreciate your time and thought.

I am a pretty post-modern kind of guy, and have no problem with the reader’s prerogative to see (and ‘write’) whatever story she/he finds in the story read, so I did enjoy seeing your reading of my tale.

A bit, though, about my reading of it (Note: I am of the view that stories write themselves out in us; we take a look at them when they’re done to try to figure out what they’re about, and then polish them to make them work better at whatever it was they were doing). I’m pretty sure my Ginny 555-1324 isn’t quite the same as your Ginny 555-1324. That shows up mostly in the beginning, but I expect it affects the whole reading.

The important thing, to my reading, was the mundaneness of it all. Nudity in itself may be eye-catching or even arousing in everyday life, but it is everyday life at a nude beach. Good-looking or misshapen, svelte or curvy, old and wrinkled or young and smooth aren’t of relevance; they just be, and with all shades in between and beyond. That was what my opening sentence was to convey; your intro takes the idea in a different direction.

It’s in that context that the image of her and her red hair in the green sea catches his attention: an accidental tableau vivant in nature of a two-dimensional capturing of an image to be found in book or museum. Sensuous, but not at all about the nudity or the sex.

The paintings, then...If you know Gauguin, Renoir, and Hopper, the reference is enough to bring them to you, but it isn’t necessary. I’ve written what’s relevant: the colour contrast in the Gauguin, the soft flesh of Renoir, and the self-confident sensuality of Hopper’s women. If you don’t know them, you can ignore their names and still have the idea, or you can get curious and look at their works. The sense of sensuousness I tried to convey was from all their works, not just three paintings, hence my writing that they could have walked out of three of my favourite painters. I had the good fortune in the 60s to meet one of Renoir’s models. I was familiar with two of his paintings of her, from when she had been fifteen. Not only was her sensuousness apparent in each of those, it was still apparent at eighty; any painting of her would have captured that.

It isn’t pretentious, by the way. That would involve some degree of pretense with a sense of superiority; many do enjoy, and know, such art without seeing it as a mark of our superiority. The arts are a part of my everyday life, and I don’t consider them to be superior to baseball or plumbing. It would have been presumptuous of me if I had alluded to a particular classic football game, for example, since that isn’t an area of my particular interest. I know some people just assume any reference to art is pretentious, but there’s no reason for them to believe that their world is inferior to mine.

The reference to O’Keefe, I felt, would have been immediately amusing to a reader familiar with her work, and at least suggestive to those not. For those who weren’t, the second reference, when Ginny sat cross-legged on the blanket, should have cleared it up: Georgia O’Keefe was noted for paintings of flowers and other aspects of nature that often ended up looking like vulvas.

The minor bit of detail in the chat, I felt, established the commonplace of themselves, of parallel lives fortuitously intersecting at this time and place, of them as ordinary, and older, people, not as extraordinary sex machines.

The whole overview I saw in the story, though, was not simply of sex on the beach, but contrast between the “museum” orientation of the protagonist and the “naturist” beach he visited, and the bridging of that contrast by the woman who “walked right out of three of his favourite painters,” and invited him into a fourth. The story opened with a completely unmemorable scene, where not even nudity was of note, and closed with a number he couldn’t forget, a transformation achieved through some pretty good sex.

So it was nice to see your variant reading of it, and I thank you for your helpfulness. Yes, the third-person reflections (“he realized”) are awkward and unnecessary. And, yes, I do tend to over use the conjunction in starting sentences. It may best be reserved for emphasizing connected afterthoughts.

The best help in writing is that which aims to help one effectively write what it is that one is writing. Too often, and I’ve seen this among my colleagues who teach “creative writing,” it becomes a matter of advising someone to write the story you would like rather than how to improve the story they were writing. Your suggested re-write of the introduction turns my story into your version of the story, and that may be a very good story for your aims and your audience. My version, I think, has different aims and a different audience.

Tio: lovely story. It's difficult to find good stories on Lit whose main characters are older. I wish there were more of these. I'm also a fan of one-page Lit stories. I appreciated the artistic references as well, especially Gauguin, as I majored in French. I agree with you about Lien's rewrite of first paragraph which took the story in a direction that was his, not yours. (No offense, Lien).

There were a few mechanical issues I found distracting. The main one for me was the treatment of internal thoughts. It's my belief that internal dialogue can be written that doesn't cause the reader to stop reading to separate internal from external dialogue.

Overall, a lovely story. I voted a 5.

Oops, duplicate post

LadyVer said:

Tio: lovely story. It's difficult to find good stories on Lit whose main characters are older. I wish there were more of these. I'm also a fan of one-page Lit stories. I appreciated the artistic references as well, especially Gauguin, as I majored in French. I agree with you about Lien's rewrite of first paragraph which took the story in a direction that was his, not yours. (No offense, Lien).

There were a few mechanical issues I found distracting. The main one for me was the treatment of internal thoughts. It's my belief that internal dialogue can be written that doesn't cause the reader to stop reading to separate internal from external dialogue.

Overall, a lovely story. I voted a 5.

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Thank you, LadyVer, I am glad you found it so appealing. My The Lonely Lady features an older woman, but she's engaged in giving lessons in theology to a younger man.

I'm dissatisfied as well with the way I address internal dialogue; any suggestions for dealing with it more clearly?