How to compliment a woman

WhenInDoubtFuck said:

Uh oh, looks like someone is going back to re-write her posts. It's a start, I'll take it. Thank you satindesire.

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Yeah no.

WhenInDoubtFuck said:

Sexual violence isn't the only kind of stranger violence, and stranger violence isn't the only type of violence in general.

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Nobody ever said it was. Incidentally, while this thread started with discussion of actions somebody might take as a stranger, a lot of the same issues apply in the context of acquaintance rape, so I'm not sure this point is tremendously relevant.

There's no reason a person can't be cautious or take measures to safeguard their own life, but there is no justification for people to use their personal fears to promote prejudice or hate against any group of people.

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Where did anybody promote "prejudice or hate" here?

As a matter of fact, I am familiar with the dynamics of a crime. I worked in law enforcement for a brief while after my time in the Navy. I also received law enforcement training during active duty, as part of an assignment I was given after 9/11.

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As long as we're talking rape statistics: best estimates I've seen for the USA are that less than 50% of rapes are reported to law enforcement, and within the military only about 14% get reported. So it would be unwise to assume that your LE experience makes you familiar with more than the tip of the iceberg.

Rainshine said:

Without wanting to open up another can of worms, what sort of socio-economic corner of the world do you live in?

I hope that's not coming off as offensive, I am genuinely curious as to where that sort of behaviour from men is so prevalent... (education levels etc.)

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I don't think it's a socio-economic function. The author of this article related how she experienced street harassment in Palm Springs, California - a resort town with a long reputation of being patronized by the famous and the affluent.

I think it's more a function of a perception of vulnerability, and of opportunity. The harasser stopped when her boyfriend came onto the scene. Why? Probably because the harasser thought there was a greater risk of being confronted (perhaps even physically) for his actions.

I've done a tremendous amount of volunteer work in prisons. I've been in over 20 prisons around the state, including prisons mainly for sex offenders. Nearly every time I've gone I've had girls with me, many of whom are extremely attractive. I've encountered tens of thousands of them and I can probably count on one hand the number of times inappropriate comments have been made towards the girls with me.

I say that to say that SD must live in a pretty rough place if the fuckers can't control themselves more than prisoners. Are they animals?

I did have one of my friends, who is extremely attractive, tell me that in Italy she couldn't walk down the street without guys talking to her and making comments. But she's incredibly beautiful. And she actually wasn't bothered by it.

And no Rainshine, you are not Shrek.

This makes me think of the guys you see riding on the back of garbage trucks or working construction whistling at girls. Like, in the history of ever, has a girl ever seen someone on a garbage truck or sweaty, fat arsed construction guy and been like, "I know I'm in my business clothes, but your whistling really made me wet. Plus, you stink so bad you could make a buzzard fall off a shit wagon. I imagine the fumes will go to my head and make me higher than giraffe pussy, but would you like to go for a quick blowjob in this back alley?"

I realize the original poster's comments are more about legit, normal compliments, but the conversation has turned to rape, so I don't think I'm too far out of line.

I think turning conversations into rape is the Lit equivalent to Godwin's Law.

Rainshine said:

Well, I've raised socio-economic status so we can get to Hitler pretty quick from here, Pmann.

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Fucking Nazi rapists.

pmann said:

I've encountered tens of thousands of them and I can probably count on one hand the number of times inappropriate comments have been made towards the girls with me.

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Had you not been with them, I wonder if their experiences might have been different.

bailadora said:

Had you not been with them, I wonder if their experiences might have been different.

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I don't think my presence is going to deter prisoners. Don't get me wrong, I'm rugged and manly and all.

And the girls have been in their presence without me or a less rugged, guy right there. The guys would have numerous chances to say whatever. As I said, with all of that, the number has been less than 5 that I can recall. Over 14 years.

But seriously, I wear loafers and I have never even smoked a cigarette. Those prisoners could kill me in an instant. I don't think my presence has much effect on them.

I would like to pose this...

Consider the opposite. Let's say, as a guy, I've been screwed over by women. That, in my past I've had girls use me for my fashion advice and my massive black cock, then dump me.

Would it be fair for me to then assume that every woman who complimented my incredibly progressive sense of fashion was out to break my heart? Even if her comment wasn't welcomed, would it be fair to presume she was doing it with malice?

I mean, a comment of "you've got gorgeous eyes" should be sent to different receptors than "you've got a sweet camel toe, can I get in that"? The intent of the originator should be somewhat evident. Now, tone, context, etc. all come in to play. I'm not saying women should be thankful for the compliments, enjoy them or whatever. But in a society, we all come from different experiences. Wouldn't it be better to try to consider every side of the coin and try to look through the lens of the other person as well?

pmann said:

I would like to pose this...

Consider the opposite. Let's say, as a guy, I've been screwed over by women. That, in my past I've had girls use me for my fashion advice and my massive black cock, then dump me.

Would it be fair for me to then assume that every woman who complimented my incredibly progressive sense of fashion was out to break my heart? Even if her comment wasn't welcomed, would it be fair to presume she was doing it with malice?

I mean, a comment of "you've got gorgeous eyes" should be sent to different receptors than "you've got a sweet camel toe, can I get in that"? The intent of the originator should be somewhat evident. Now, tone, context, etc. all come in to play. I'm not saying women should be thankful for the compliments, enjoy them or whatever. But in a society, we all come from different experiences. Wouldn't it be better to try to consider every side of the coin and try to look through the lens of the other person as well?

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Funnily enough I have been in that situation where a variety of women have on various levels not been terribly nice to me, putting it mildly. Not entirely convinced it was for my massive cock, black or otherwise. But at any rate I tend to keep a polite and respectful distance from the femme fatals of the world these days. Thus whenever I do get any interest, compliments especially I get suspicious and on the defensive. Sorry state of affairs to be sure.

I do think it's a good rule of thumb not to say anything to a stranger that you would say to a friend or family member. I generally receive compliments from strangers about my hair which isn't entirely unique, but is out of the ordinary enough that I often get stared at or stopped for comment about it. I also wear nerdy and funny t-shirts that usually grant me a compliment. Do I really mind? No. I think those types of compliments aren't really creepy, they are just people reacting to something they enjoy about me that are a part of my personality. And my hair just gets comments because in most of the areas I frequent people aren't used to seeing hair like mine. #specialsnowflake

As for creepiness, well... A guy tells me that my shirt is awesome while I'm walking through a restaurant. I can stop and tell him about where I got and thank him blah blah. If I'm at the grocery store and some tells me I'm pretty, what do I say? "Thank you, man it was tough being born like this but I'm glad you recognize how hard that was for me."

???? No.

If I feel I am being cut down to size, being put in a position where I can either seem receptive to your advances or be judged for rejecting them, can't look into your eyes, that your exuding power (particularly a sexual power) over me, that there are very few ways to respond to you, it's creepy. Creepy encompasses the fear women have of men, plain and simple. Your male privilege allows you security in daily social interactions that women for the most part don't experience.

I also don't like the way that some people have responded to some women here who have expressed their discomfort with compliments. For example, would you really negatively judge someone who was deathly afraid of spiders while you weren't? When men judge women so harshly for not being receptive to every little thing about them, you are implicitly defending your perceived right to control us. I realize that is a bold statement, but why else would you take it so personally that someone on the internet that you have never met before may somehow negatively react to compliments like these? People have reasons for why they feel the way they do about certain and you can't discount them because you feel yours are superior.

TW for sexual assault:

There are women whose biggest fear is being raped. How the fuck can they know where "you're very beautiful" can lead to? Seriously consider that before you discount a person's feelings, especially if you yourself has never been in a position to feel the way that they do. And for god's sake don't call out someone for not having a sense of humor about a topic like this. When sexual assault can be a result of compliments, it's not a laughing matter.

pmann said:

But in a society, we all come from different experiences. Wouldn't it be better to try to consider every side of the coin and try to look through the lens of the other person as well?

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Yes. It would.

That said, I think there is a perception among many women (not all, but many) that while women are frequently expected to be understanding of the male perspective, that courtesy is not often returned. Before anyone tries to jump my ass, I'll just say that I'm not male bashing. I'm not a misandrist, and I think I've been around long enough that my reputation should speak for itself.

When a large enough segment of our society speaks of not feeling safe or devalued, something is wrong. I'm not saying men are 100% wrong and that women are 100% right. In fact, something Shiny said in an earlier post has lead to me toying with the idea of starting a thread discussing the ways men are made to feel demeaned and devalued in our society. But that is a subject for another thread.

I just wish I knew of a better way to communicate with each other so that there is a better balance. Where people don't feel like they've been demonized, but at the same time, issues have not only been heard, sincere efforts are also being made to address the concerns that have been raised.

A couple of weeks ago I was at a concert. I went to buy some CDs and the girl working the table was what I call "stripper hot". She was maybe 30 or so. Big fake breasts and a shirt that basically showed them off. She was extremely flirty and talkative. Now, trust me, I do not give the "flirt with me" kind of vibe. Never. Not in any circumstance do I portray that. And it doesn't happen to me often. Maybe for that reason, maybe for another.

Anywho, I don't really know how to deal with it so I just continue on with my browsing. When I go to make my purchase, she says, "Finger me."

Shocked, I said, "Excuse me?"

Then she said, "Finger me," held out her iPad where she swiped my credit card and wanted me to sign, with my finger. Then she winked.

Now, that was a bit off-putting and inappropriate. And why she thought to do that to me is beyond me. Perhaps she does it to every guy.

But, while it was wildly inappropriate, I just chose to consider why she did it. She probably had no ill intent. I would have been within my rights to tell her to fuck off. That may have been a first, as she was really attractive. My body language probably let her know exactly what I was feeling.

I'm not saying that's how everyone should handle it. Just how I handled it. Perhaps I should've informed her it wasn't okay. If my wife had been there, I presume she wouldn't have done that.

And I realize it IS different for girls in that their safety can be a more immediate concern. Guys are more likely to be violent to a level where it can be harmful. Women take the slow and steady approach and mindfuck you over time. It's less threatening, initially.

bailadora said:

In fact, something Shiny said in an earlier post has lead to me toying with the idea of starting a thread discussing the ways men are made to feel demeaned and devalued in our society.

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*thumbs up*

Rainshine said:

Without wanting to open up another can of worms, what sort of socio-economic corner of the world do you live in?

I hope that's not coming off as offensive, I am genuinely curious as to where that sort of behaviour from men is so prevalent... (education levels etc.)

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I live in a middle class suburb.

I got this exact same behavior when I lived in a very poor neighborhood in Fresno, CA and when I lived in an upper-class neighborhood in Santa Rosa.

bailadora said:

I don't think it's a socio-economic function. The author of this article related how she experienced street harassment in Palm Springs, California - a resort town with a long reputation of being patronized by the famous and the affluent.

I think it's more a function of a perception of vulnerability, and of opportunity. The harasser stopped when her boyfriend came onto the scene. Why? Probably because the harasser thought there was a greater risk of being confronted (perhaps even physically) for his actions.

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I'm usually not harassed when I'm with my husband, although there have been a few occasions where a guy thought it would be funny to say crude things even with him there.

Rainshine said:

I wasn't referring to any article, I was referring to Satin's experiences.

ETA: I see the link you're referencing now I'm on a computer not my phone - apologies. I agree you can experience harassment of all kinds anywhere, however for it to be so prevalent for one person in such a foul manner is beyond me. I can't imagine that happening where I live. I'm no oil painting but I'm not shrek like (I don't think), and I have lived for varying periods of time in a lot of countries and places with different values and social norms and I have never come across such consistent and foul harassment as that. It makes me wonder what is going on where she's living.

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In my experience, it has nothing to do with where I live and everything to do with the type of guy willing to sexually harass. They are generally youngish, between their late teens to early fourties, and the aggressive, ultra-masculine "macho" type guys.

Because street harassment isn't about giving women compliments, it's about displaying power over women.

bailadora said:

Had you not been with them, I wonder if their experiences might have been different.

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Exactly. When a man is present, the prevalence of harassment drops dramatically. I experience this when I'm with my husband, father or male cousin that I'm close to. If I'm with girlfriends, I get about half, but alone, I'm almost always harassed or approached at least once because I seem more vulnerable.

bailadora said:

Yes. It would.

That said, I think there is a perception among many women (not all, but many) that while women are frequently expected to be understanding of the male perspective, that courtesy is not often returned. Before anyone tries to jump my ass, I'll just say that I'm not male bashing. I'm not a misandrist, and I think I've been around long enough that my reputation should speak for itself.

When a large enough segment of our society speaks of not feeling safe or devalued, something is wrong. I'm not saying men are 100% wrong and that women are 100% right. In fact, something Shiny said in an earlier post has lead to me toying with the idea of starting a thread discussing the ways men are made to feel demeaned and devalued in our society. But that is a subject for another thread.

I just wish I knew of a better way to communicate with each other so that there is a better balance. Where people don't feel like they've been demonized, but at the same time, issues have not only been heard, sincere efforts are also being made to address the concerns that have been raised.

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A lot of guys have a hard time believing that sexual harassment is something that nearly every woman deals with at least occasionally in their lives, even if a huge amount of women all account the same types of experiences.

Just look at the backlash the #yesallwomen hashtag got on social media. Not only are guys invested in silencing these stories, they're invested in keeping it the status quo.

bailadora said:

Yes. It would.

That said, I think there is a perception among many women (not all, but many) that while women are frequently expected to be understanding of the male perspective, that courtesy is not often returned. Before anyone tries to jump my ass, I'll just say that I'm not male bashing. I'm not a misandrist, and I think I've been around long enough that my reputation should speak for itself.

When a large enough segment of our society speaks of not feeling safe or devalued, something is wrong. I'm not saying men are 100% wrong and that women are 100% right. In fact, something Shiny said in an earlier post has lead to me toying with the idea of starting a thread discussing the ways men are made to feel demeaned and devalued in our society. But that is a subject for another thread.

I just wish I knew of a better way to communicate with each other so that there is a better balance. Where people don't feel like they've been demonized, but at the same time, issues have not only been heard, sincere efforts are also being made to address the concerns that have been raised.

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This whole thread has been very eye opening and has given me a bit more insight into the recent #yesallwomen twitter thing that happened a few months ago. This thread particularly highlights how hard it actually is to consider these issues from a 'neutral' perspective. I do tend to be vocal about how gender in society affects men because that is something I feel able to talk about from my experience, whereas I don't feel I can validly talk about female experience. Plus I believe it is something important that doesn't get enough of the correct exposure. Overall, it has to be a part of general discourse and awareness of the societal advantages and disadvantages created by our genders.

I'd not come across the #notallmen memes and in the first instance they made me really upset but I think they make a really important point as to how difficult it is discuss these topics. Maybe it comes to differentiating the individual from the societal? I'm not sure. The issue is, is if one gender wants to talk about they are subjugated by members of the other gender, how am I as an individual meant to take that? For example, it brings to mind a recent 'don't rape' poster I saw in a men's toilet. As that poster spoke to me how am I meant to respond? It does on one level suggest that I am a 'closet' rapist. If I protest I could be accused of invoking the #notallmen card to derail the argument. But surely to assert that I am not a rapist is the correct thing to do and is in line with the point of the poster. It ends up being bit of a double-bind which I think is due to trying to understand it at the level of the individual rather than at a societal level. I'm still trying to work it out in my head.

As the thread shows complementing a woman is this huge microcosmic clash of the individual working within this gender biased societal framework. The individual's intention may be one of beneficience but societal context is sexist and demonstrates inequality between men and women. Like I said previously, if you wouldn't give a comparable complement to a guy then what legitimises that to be given to a woman? That societal context holds a whole mish-mash of things some of which are about subjugating women but also about placing them above men as something special or 'objects of worship' which fits with the experience of some female posters appreciating male attention. Basically, it's complicated and to hold only one perspective is probably inaccurate.

Finally, there is the elephant in the room which is sexual attraction. For the sake of the species men and women do have to hook up, and, from what I hear, they do seem to enjoy it. How is this meant to happen without some degree of sexual objectification or pushing the boundaries in the early stages? I don't really have an answer for that question.

I notice new haircuts and doos, otherwise I wait for a woman to fish for a compliment. Beyond that I ignore them as much as possible.

shiny5437 said:

Finally, there is the elephant in the room which is sexual attraction. For the sake of the species men and women do have to hook up, and, from what I hear, they do seem to enjoy it. How is this meant to happen without some degree of sexual objectification or pushing the boundaries in the early stages? I don't really have an answer for that question.

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I suggest a written permission slip. Make your intentions known in writing. Deliver it through a verified mail carrier. I suggest delivery confirmation. Perhaps a "check yes or no" option to declare interest. Include a self addressed return envelope for easy reply. It's as simple as that, my friend.

Like many issues, it's a pendulum swing. Watch Mad Men and how the women are treated on that show. I don't quite know how accurate it is, but I have a feeling there are elements of truth to it. That's a shitty way to treat women.

Well now, in some areas of society, the pendulum has swung way the fuck over there and women are sometimes celebrated for being rude and obnoxious. If a girl is acting like a raging bitch and you call her on it, you're misogynistic and awful. When in fact, the girl is just a raging bitch.

Posted on upworthy

"A Woman Wore A Hidden Camera To Show How Many Times In A Day She Gets Harassed. Argh."

http://www.upworthy.com/a-woman-wor...-times-in-a-day-she-gets-harassed-argh?c=ufb2
___________________________
edit Dec 2020
since this thread has once again been mentioned
The upworthy page is not displaying well
same video on YouTube
https://youtu.be/QYAL21jxREQ

pmann said:

And I realize it IS different for girls in that their safety can be a more immediate concern. Guys are more likely to be violent to a level where it can be harmful.

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I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that I think this is what most women want men to realize. And it is mostly likely the main source of frustration when they don't feel like they are being heard. I'll freely admit it's been the main source of frustration in talking about this issue with some of the men in my life.

pmann said:

*thumbs up*

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I'm working on it. In talking with another Litster it's been advised that the opening post should be worded carefully, in hopes of keeping it from turning into a gender slugfest.

shiny5437 said:

I'm still trying to work it out in my head.

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Take heart, Shiny. You're not the only one.

If you're complimenting a person, make it as non-sexual as possible. That's the best way to not come off as creepy. Something like "I like your hair" or "that's a nice shirt" are a hell of a lot more welcome than "amazing ass" or "the things I would do to touch your tits"

WhenInDoubtFuck said:

There's no reason a person can't be cautious or take measures to safeguard their own life, but there is no justification for people to use their personal fears to promote prejudice or hate against any group of people.

As a matter of fact, I am familiar with the dynamics of a crime. I worked in law enforcement for a brief while after my time in the Navy. I also received law enforcement training during active duty, as part of an assignment I was given after 9/11. I may not be from The Bronx, but I've been to places much worse and served with people who have seen worse than I. I don't consider myself more tough or wise for having been there, just lucky and grateful that I made it home safely.

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How do you deduce that merely not wanting people to get up in your personal space and have uninvited conversations with you means that somehow you are now The Oppressor? That's just magic.

If other women felt entitled to do this shit, I don't think I'd be any less interested in my exit strategies. Thing is - they don't! When they do I KNOW things are fucked! When men do it I have to play demented 20 questions.

Great, so you can easily extrapolate from your experiences how a physically small woman without fight impulse experiences the entire fucking world - having to go on a mixture of impulse and information, and not sure when being nice is going to blow up in her face.

She feels lucky every time she makes it back from night work on the bus without becoming Mia Zapata. There is not one night of her entire life where she leaves the house and gets to NOT think about the worst.

I don't know that many guys in the middle class and up strata who have to do this, or even know how to worry about personal safety when they should!

Black dudes also have to do this, but nobody's calling them assholes for not trying to engage cops in a friendly water fight with ambiguous water pistols, it's all in good fun!

That sounds outside your empathy capacities though.

I like girls, I've even hit on some. I can actually manage to keep it in a context, not waltzing though life amazed that pussy is not falling at my feet every time I smile. I realize that men are not exactly biologically identical, but we're in a society, it's not that fucking complicated.

TL: DR

The vast majority of us want you to fucking stop doing it. If you're that kind of horny, there's craigslist. If you want to spread joy and peace, have a substantial conversation. Join a book club. If you need to flash your junk, chat roulette. There are outlets for everything these days.

NightL said:

Posted on upworthy

"A Woman Wore A Hidden Camera To Show How Many Times In A Day She Gets Harassed. Argh."

http://www.upworthy.com/a-woman-wor...-times-in-a-day-she-gets-harassed-argh?c=ufb2

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And then people rush into defend the dudes harassing her. It's so socially backwards I can't even!

shiny5437 said:

I'd not come across the #notallmen memes and in the first instance they made me really upset but I think they make a really important point as to how difficult it is discuss these topics. Maybe it comes to differentiating the individual from the societal? I'm not sure. The issue is, is if one gender wants to talk about they are subjugated by members of the other gender, how am I as an individual meant to take that?

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A couple of angles on that.

#1: when people are hurting and weary, sometimes precision of language suffers. I can completely relate to wanting every statement to be 100% factually correct but sometimes that isn't the priority. Exaggerating a little:

Person A, staggering out of the Australian bush: "Oh god, a pack of rabid koala bears just attacked my family! They tore my uncle's face off and they've got my sister trapped inside the car! They're trying to gnaw their way in and she's screaming! Please help!"

Person B: "Actually, koalas aren't bears. They're from a completely different evolutionary branch. And we don't have rabies in mainland Australia so it's probably some other cause."

Person B is factually correct, but they're also missing the point very badly. When somebody's having a rough time, they're probably not going to handle it perfectly; empathising with their situation makes it easier to overlook the relatively minor hurt that happens when that not-perfect-ness treads on your toes.

Here's a good essay in a bad font about that issue: http://inkskinned.tumblr.com/post/76348980497/when-you-are-hurting-there-will-always-be-people

#2: sometimes, even when you have absolutely no intention of hurting people from another group, you still end up benefiting at their expense. There's a fair bit of research out there showing that people perceived as white and male have major advantages over those perceived as black & female in things like hiring processes - a resume from "Marcus O'Halloran" has a much better chance of getting a callback than the exact same resume from "Lakeesha Washington".

Marcus might be appalled to learn that he'd been unfairly favoured over Lakeesha. But at the end of the day, he's got the job and she doesn't. If she sometimes talks about "white guys" as part of the problem, maybe the best response is to channel those hurt feelings into fixing the system.

satindesire said:

And then people rush into defend the dudes harassing her. It's so socially backwards I can't even!

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Ah - did you actually watch the video? Did I miss something? Can you please provide the time indicators of where in the video that display "And then people rush into defend the dudes harassing her."