Fantasy Series Hard Magic System

So I've begun working on my own series, after starting with an idea for a short story. It made me ask enough questions to flesh out the setting and instead get an idea for a series. NOW LIVE: https://www.literotica.com/s/son-of-mars-and-venus-ch-01

I'm looking for some hardcore fantasy nerds to rip my ideas on the magic system to shreds.

One of the hardest parts of a fantasy series with magic is making it interesting, with its own limitations, weaknesses, and costs that make the use of it not feel cheap or Deus Ex Machina moments. And despite my confidence in certain things, I find the best test of a system is for people to try and poke holes in it.

The setting is basically a gritty fantasy world on the mortal plane, following the death of God by the fallen angels. In this world, there exists both planar magic used by the angels and demons by siphoning magic from the heavens or 9 circles of hell respectively, and mortal magic.

Planar magic is intuitively used, although its exact consequences are limited by whether the being is an angel or demon. Demons may uses illusions, offensive magic, and alter their physical form.
Angels can transmute things, use defensive oriented magic, and are naturally strong and fast, being individually stronger than demons.

Mortal magic on the other hand, involves laborious study and experimentation. It requires the memorisation of intricate bodily movements, nonsensical noises, meaning you can only create magical effects that you know the spell for.


Some limitations imposed are:

-Teleportation does not work with living creatures across long distances.

-Magic cannot make permanent objects. The only way to create a permanent magic effect is by enchanting an item, typically coming
from an innately magical creature (angel, demon, etc.) and this type of enchantment can only be done by a wielder of mortal magic, i.e. a wizard.

-Mortal magic requires the clearing of the mind and emotion to focus on the spells.

-Can only cast a spell you can remember the somatic and verbal components of, and may require materials to complete it.

-Normal mortals cannot regenerate Planar Magic, they can only perform rituals in order to acquire the planar energy and then use it to produce some effect.
The origin of this planar energy is either heaven or hell. Drawing on one precludes drawing from the other, i.e. you can't perform dark rituals of lust to draw energy from hell then turn around and do a ritual of heaven to draw its energy.

The only mortal beings that can both regenerate and channel have to learn how to wield it, and cannot intuitively use it like Demons or Angels. Additionally, because such a being wouldn't be strongly bound to the heavens or hells, they can only use powerful bursts of planar energy and cannot wield it for long periods of time.

Weaknesses

Magic doesn't always work against priests, templars, or people adorned with enchanted silver.

Priests can suppress magic that attempts to warp the surrounding environment, whilst paladins can't be directly targeted by planar magic and are highly resistant to mortal magic. The Paladins pay a heavy price for such an ability.

Due to priests being vulnerable to direct targeting by Planar Magic, they typically wear enchanted silver that protects them from direct threat of Planar Magic, but they can still be affected by Mortal Magic.

In the case of regular knights wearing such silver, they merely gain protection against direct threat of Planar Magic, but if a demon were to alter the fabric the landscape, they'd be pretty screwed. Hence the need for priests. This is relatively uncommon, as the creation of such protection relies on using parts of innately magical creature. If the priests are protected, they can safeguard the soldiers, and the templars help safeguard the priests.

Other details are that mortals can use Planar Energy, but it requires the use of rituals of heaven, or hell. The energy gained is never replenished, so they'd have to perform another long ritual after using the energy was acquired and expended. Energy cannot kept being drawn, as is there a limit to the amount of energy that can be held in a priest's body.


Costs


Lazy option is to just require bodily energy to use Mortal Magic, with Angels and Demons restoring their energy at a fixed pace, as they siphon it directly from heavens or hells, which only has a limited reach into the mortal plane.

I'm not entirely sure whether heavy costs are needed if I keep the current limitations or apply even more of them.

Edit: I've decided to enforce a very strict limit on mortal magic, the reason being that of all the forms of magic, it's the most flexible and potentially the most powerful. Though, it will be THE most dangerous to learn and master. There's not actually any hard restriction on who could learn it. The spells are so intricate and dangerous that small mistakes can spell disaster, and for that reason only the most intellectually keen are capable of mastering it to any significant degree.

Due to the potential power it grants the wielder and the dangers of practicing it, the early learners tended to hand down their knowledge to their direct descendants. Keeping it in the family as it were. A person who learned the spells, could accomplish what a demon couldn't do but an angel could, and vice versa, and even beyond what either of them could do. For that reason, rather than a vague 'so and so energy' I've come up with limited uses per day. This goes up over time as the wizard gathers energy from dead angels or demons by harvesting the energy they contain to enhance their energy reserves. This creates an intrinsic motivation for a wizard to actually leave the wizard tower, as without it, a wizard could potentially experiment and perfect a number of spells but they'd have pretty weak energy reserves and might not even be able to fully use the spells they discover.

This also prevents me from doing that rather tiresome trope of "They have just enough energy for this spell in this situation" but in another it's "Oh, they don't have quite enough." It becomes a very fake invention by the author, and they can just arbitrarily do things. With hard and fast limits, it will hopefully force me to think up creative uses of spells the user knows and DOES have the energy for. It'd be the kind of a thing a very clever reader could come up with, and go AHA! when it happens.


Poke away, fantasy nerds!

EDIT: I failed to clarify what I mean by 'hard magic system'. It's a term coined by Brandon Sanderson, and refers to a system of magic where the rules are known by the readers. So in any situation, you have a clear idea of what abilities can be used, and both the limitations and costs of use. Best example is Full Metal Alchemist due to its Equivalent exchange: Something of equal cost must be paid to transmute things. Like reshaping iron in the ground to form a metal sword.

Opposite example is the soft magic system, where you never really know how it works or the extent of abilities. Best example is Gandalf from LOTR, you know he can do magic stuff but you have no idea how it works or what the extent is.

One thing you don't mention is the nature of the priests. Do they have magical abilities? I'm assuming they do, as you mention them having a special role. So, where does their power come from?

Do they have opposites? Dark priests?

If they're drawing their abilities from the planar beings, that can be utilized as both a source of strength or weakness for the planar beings. The standard of more worshipers = more power is there, as is the possibility that too many of them drawing on a planar being who hasn't truly reached godhood levels at once could drain them.

What is the source of mortal magic? Is it perhaps the scattered energy of the fallen god? How long did it take mortals to learn to harness it through trial and error? Or, were they taught by planar beings? Maybe initial lessons from planar beings which they have then expanded on over the ( years? centuries? )

Or was mortal magic a gift of the fallen god that wasn't sourced from him, and thus didn't die with him?

Since you've placed a hard dividing line between planar beings and mortal magic, you do need a source for mortal magic.

Hey Reject,

Thanks for the probing questions.
Because dark rituals can grant power, I can see that the regular priests should have their own version.

I managed to contradict myself a little by saying normal mortals can't channel and regenerate planar magic but then said rituals allowed them to channel it. They definitely can't regenerate it naturally.

So, the source of the priest's power is Planar Energy they harness from Heaven or Hell through 'The Breach' that connects the mortal plane to both hell and heaven. They acquire this energy from rituals and the abilities they can use are restricted by whether it's obtained from hell or heaven.

Other abilities or protection by way of enchanted items, are actually created by wizards, the users of mortal magic.

There are absolutely dark priests, because who doesn't want an excuse for a massive lustful orgy to acquire demonic powers?

In my mind, it requires a number of priests to perform these rituals. Making use of an angel or demon would increase the power and abilities of that group of priests.

I actually just made up mortal magic before deciding the source. I actually had the exact same thought, that it was scattered energy from the fallen god. The weird incantations used for spells would resonate with it and create effects upon the fabric of reality around it.

Although I'll have to toy with that and decide on the state of the world. If there's a giant gap of time between The Fall, and the beginning of the book, it begs the question of why haven't the demons and angels destroyed the world yet? Why are cities standing in the state they are?
If the gap is too much, I'm thinking of going with it being gifted by the Creator themself. The fragments of text containing some of the most powerful spells however may have been lost over the years from cities consumed by demons, and wars fought between races. This or something else may be necessary as there's a big gap between the abilities wielded at the start of the series and the kind I plan to have at the end. Trying to avoid the cliche of "The hero figures out shit nobody else can." Fighting to earn that knowledge seems a bit more realistic and meaningful.

I am trying to make a very big difference between mortal and planar, and don't think I can have angels or demons able to teach mortal magic. If that was the case, priests or dark priests would be wielding both kinds

I'm planning for the gap to be around 100-200 years.

Interesting. I'm actually in a similar boat here, trying to write a fantasy story with a "magic system," that also has a bit of a duality system.



Anyways, so it seems your magic system is based on Heaven/Hell, "Light/Dark" duality based system. I have a couple questions based on what I imagine how your magic system might work. Plus, I'm a little confused about some parts.

First, would the morality(or lack thereof) of the individual practitioner help determine the strength and effectiveness of his spells depending on the source he is drawing from? Ie. would a highly spiritual priest with a strong sense of morality have a naturally stronger affinity to using Heaven Planar magic compared to Hell Magic, where as a purely hedonistic, amoral, and selfish priest would have better connection to Hell Planar Magic in the other end of this theoretical spectrum, due to his moral compass or karma? Or does it not matter? Can a decent person draw on Hell magic and could a wicked guy learn how to harness the energies of Heaven magic? You mentioned that drawing on one source of "Planar magic" precludes the other, so I was wondering if their morality or nature could hamper their affinity to one kind of planar magic while strengthening their ability to use the other kind.

As a part of cost of using planar magic, when a mortal casts a spell, is he simply drawing out the energies of the planar magics and directing it, or is he making some connection with it when he casts a spell or gathers the energy? You said mortals gather energy to cast spells. Where is it all gathered? In an amulet? or their souls? Could mortals who draw on these magic energies be personally affected or corrupted by its use, like their bodies being altered, or their souls and personalities being warped or gradually changing?

I'm very confused about the whole thing with "mortal magic," though. So it might come from a god, or the scattered remains of said god? Where does this god come from? is his energy just scattered around the mortal plane, or do wizards draw from it somewhere? Is he from the Heaven plane, or hell plane, or some other plane? Are there other gods then?

Hey Jmanchu, happy anytime to discuss coming up with a magic system with you. For a fantasy series, part of the message I've gotten is that the system really needs to be planned well. Magic is pretty much an important character of the series, otherwise it's just a series with some absentmindedly placed thing called magic in, and it's magic stuff, that does stuff, and that's it.

So, despite the fact that there seem to be light/dark sources of energy, I started off not even wanting to clearly favor a right and wrong. Wanted to go for fairly morally complex characters as that's what most people are in real life, they have both touches of good/evil traits. Seems strange I know, considering the use of angels and demons, but I'm planning on spending most of the book in the grey area and even angels and demons can be morally complex. I mean, does being an angel determine completely how that being would behave? Despite the religious symbolism, the books won't follow the hard line of absolute morality that the Bible does.

Therefore, the morality of the person has no bearing on the strength or effectiveness of the spells. What places a limit on the strength of most mortals using planar magic is how much energy they've managed to collect via a ritual and how much they can actually store in their bodies. What determines a user's 'strength' or how much energy they can contain is dependent upon killing demons, or killing angels, or slowly siphoning the energy from one of those beings, or an innately magical creature.
Simply put: the only way to gain increased energy reserves is to take it from something else.

A priest is either a spiritual priest or a dark priest. It's not morality per se, but a restriction placed on all mortal beings and even angels and demons. Demons are linked with hell and draw their energy from it. Angels are bound with heaven and draw their energy from there.


Once a ritual is performed in order to connect with and siphon the energy from either or heaven or hell, the person is bound to it and cannot access the other.

When a mortal uses planar magic, they have to use up the limited amount of energy they've managed to siphon from one of the planes. Think of the human like a battery just storing it up to their maximum capacity, and then releasing it when they need to. Mortals typically cannot store that much Planar energy, though it can differ by species (there's more races than just human).
So you get a situation where priests form a group, to better combine their limited energies to create powerful effects.

The 'warping' of someone as it were is not something I plan on doing. In my mind, it's more important what actions people take. If someone channels the energy of hell, it allows them to caste spells of a certain nature: it's not defensive focused, it's not based on finding truth, it's not about healing. Hell energy is chaotic, destructive, deceptive, and self serving.

I like to think that the person making the choice of which energy to channel is the major choice they can make. No warping of themselves needed, no Star Wars stuff about dark side will warp your appearance permanently. Though, if you were a regular human, and gained access to power to wield as you saw fit, at the cost of conducting dark rituals, would you not find that power intoxicating and hard to resist? Even if you were a very moral person going in?

Mortal magic, the source of which I'm not completely decided on yet. In the case of it being from scattered energy, it would pervade all of existence: Heaven, Hell, Mortal Plane.

Kind of talking to myself here, but feel free to weight in: If it's scattered energy, a period of 100 years or so seems like a reasonable amount of time for cities to be destroyed by war, and maybe some new towns and small cities to spring up, but perhaps not new major cities. If the magical research was very aggressive and the need was great enough to warrant the death of the people attempting it, they could have gotten very good at it in that time. Although the knowledge they gained may have been lost to destroyed or overrun cities, explaining why there are powerful spells out and about in dangerous parts of the world. Enough time for spell results, but not so much time that the ferocity of the world I portray begs the question of why the world isn't destroyed yet.

Yeah, I've been planning out my magic system for one of my settings for a while. It's a pain in the ass to come up with something that I can be satisfied with, so I've decided to first work on my setting a little more and hope that by fleshing that out first, I'd be able to figure out how my magic system would work.

Anyways, your planar magic system sounds like not so much of a good/bad deal but more of a chaos/order kind of deal, where Hell and its magic is chaotic, and more offensively focused in terms of combat, and with Heaven being the other, being more focused on healing, pursuing truth and altruism, etc, if I am not mistaken. So dark magic, even if not directly connected with morality or immorality, has strong hedonistic and morally free elements to using it by what you're describing.

Another question, if dark cult-like ritual sex orgies of lust help to charge up dark priests with demonic energy, how do light or spiritual priests charge their energies(aside from gathering energy from dead angels or demons). Of course I assume some sort of service or ritual ceremony but is it through a sacrifice or a donation of something, do the light priests rely on celibacy(just wondering, since their darker counterparts use ritual orgies, if the opposite applied to spiritual priests) or some sort of undertaking of a spiritual oath to charge themselves with heaven energy? Or through prayer? Do they make a contract with or perform a service for an angel?

On terms of mortal magic. If it's something that pervades all of existence, it could be something like the purest form of energy that everything in creation is made from and that everything has a connection to. It could be something like the element of Aether, or Odic force. Could wizards use life energy, including their own? or the natural or more subtle energy found in the air and in everything that basically exists? Could they twist and manipulate said energies with their rituals and incantations to imbue things with magical properties and to cast spells? If magic research is a big deal, would wizards be like alchemists of old, always experimenting with the elements, with the essences of things to see what uses they can bring out of it and how to make use of it? Also, are there gods and spirits that fall outside the realms of heaven and hell and exist in the mortal realm in your setting?

Finally, concerning why the world isn't destroyed from magic. How powerful can these spells get? Are there demons, angels, and mortals tasked with making sure that this doesn't happen, and/or to stop any sort of threat to the existence of the mortal realm or the other realms. if there are spells that powerful?

This might be too off the beating path to be useful, but your quandary about mortal magic versus planar magic reminded me of a debate in physics. There is a proposal that gravity is actually a strong force (like electromagnetism) but we are only able to experience its diluted affect in the dimensions we perceive. Perhaps the source of all magic in your world is the same, but mortals aren't able to harness its full force because they only exist on the mortal plane. The flipside would be that they're able to manipulate magic in ways immortals can't because they are grounded to a particular plane.

I likes me a good fantasy, but I think you're trying too hard.

dankmemez said:

So I've begun working on my own series, after starting with an idea for a short story. It made me ask enough questions to flesh out the setting and instead get an idea for a series.

I'm looking for some hardcore fantasy nerds to rip my ideas on the magic system to shreds.
:

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First off, why do the Angels and Demons come to your world? What's in it for them? Are they competing for souls? Does human worship increase their power?

Next, how long can Angels and Demons come to your world? I'd think it'd be for short periods of time. If it is for long periods of time, then they'd seize control of governments. But you seem to imply that they come to your world for more than the the occasional short-term visit.

How do Angels and Demons get killed? Killing them seems the key to increasing power. When there's a demon or angel sighting, does the king's High Templar gather a band of priests and wizards to slay it? If Angles and Demons are regularly killed when they come to your world, why would they come to your world?

Are their temples to both Angels and Demons in a city? Or are only Angels worshiped publicly and Demons are worshiped only secretly? Or are some kingdoms Angel-worshipers and other kingdoms Demon-worshipers?

What's the role of templars? You've got priests and wizards, who are casters of planar/mortal magic. Are templars a cross?

How do priests, wizards and templars fit into the military/government structure of the kingdoms covered by your story? Are they effectively super-soldiers, controlled by the civil government? It's a much more interesting story if they are effectively free agents, but why wouldn't the government secure control of them?

Your mortal magic systems seems to need a lot more development. Are there schools of magic that wizards special in? Or could any wizard potentially cast any spell, if they have the time and means to learn it? What does it take to cast a spell? If it doesn't take anything special, then why wouldn't everyone cast minor spells?

Alice_Rosaleen said:

The flipside would be that they're able to manipulate magic in ways immortals can't because they are grounded to a particular plane.

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This is what I'm leaning towards. It makes it a universal law for angels, demons and mortals.

Bill_Cosplay said:

I likes me a good fantasy, but I think you're trying too hard.

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I'll never admit to that

Jmanchu said:

Yeah, I've been planning out my magic system for one of my settings for a while. It's a pain in the ass to come up with something that I can be satisfied with, so I've decided to first work on my setting a little more and hope that by fleshing that out first, I'd be able to figure out how my magic system would work.

Another question, if dark cult-like ritual sex orgies of lust help to charge up dark priests with demonic energy, how do light or spiritual priests charge their energies(aside from gathering energy from dead angels or demons). Of course I assume some sort of service or ritual ceremony but is it through a sacrifice or a donation of something, do the light priests rely on celibacy(just wondering, since their darker counterparts use ritual orgies, if the opposite applied to spiritual priests) or some sort of undertaking of a spiritual oath to charge themselves with heaven energy? Or through prayer? Do they make a contract with or perform a service for an angel?

Also, are there gods and spirits that fall outside the realms of heaven and hell and exist in the mortal realm in your setting?

Finally, concerning why the world isn't destroyed from magic. How powerful can these spells get? Are there demons, angels, and mortals tasked with making sure that this doesn't happen, and/or to stop any sort of threat to the existence of the mortal realm or the other realms. if there are spells that powerful?

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I actually think in the opposite order, that the magic system determines the setting. Super powerful magic = Things go wrong and lead to destruction, but if it's common then armies wouldn't exist at all as they'd be pointless.

Given that this is an erotica, even though I'm writing an epic fantasy behind it, the spiritual priests do engage in sacrifices. The use of virgins for one thing, but not a bloody or lustful ritual. When love dominates over lust, it is a thing of beauty and virtue and can help siphon energy from Heaven. Wouldn't be a medieval setting if there wasn't some importance of virgins lol.

I'll hold off on writing about "the force that binds the universe together". Magical research is discovering the physical movements and sounds that give rise to magical effects. In terms of how powerful it can get... opening a portal to hell or heaven, levelling an army of soldiers or a small city will be possible. Not common and accessible, but possible.

8letters said:

First off, why do the Angels and Demons come to your world? What's in it for them? Are they competing for souls? Does human worship increase their power?

Next, how long can Angels and Demons come to your world? I'd think it'd be for short periods of time. If it is for long periods of time, then they'd seize control of governments. But you seem to imply that they come to your world for more than the the occasional short-term visit.

How do Angels and Demons get killed? Killing them seems the key to increasing power. When there's a demon or angel sighting, does the king's High Templar gather a band of priests and wizards to slay it? If Angles and Demons are regularly killed when they come to your world, why would they come to your world?

Are their temples to both Angels and Demons in a city? Or are only Angels worshiped publicly and Demons are worshiped only secretly? Or are some kingdoms Angel-worshipers and other kingdoms Demon-worshipers?

What's the role of templars? You've got priests and wizards, who are casters of planar/mortal magic. Are templars a cross?

How do priests, wizards and templars fit into the military/government structure of the kingdoms covered by your story? Are they effectively super-soldiers, controlled by the civil government? It's a much more interesting story if they are effectively free agents, but why wouldn't the government secure control of them?

Your mortal magic systems seems to need a lot more development. Are there schools of magic that wizards special in? Or could any wizard potentially cast any spell, if they have the time and means to learn it? What does it take to cast a spell? If it doesn't take anything special, then why wouldn't everyone cast minor spells?

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Really great questions. I didn't post all the details initially, but hopefully the following fleshed it out a bit more.

Okay, so demons come to the mortal plane to corrupt souls and have them sent to hell. They can naturally reproduce but brining in souls to warp into demons helps strengthen their numbers and strength.

Angels come to the mortal plane mainly to combat the demons, to gain strength from their kill, and also to compete against other factions of angels. Now that the golden chair of God is vacant, archangels compete for the right to claim it, but they need to be exceptionally powerful. Uriel, Michael, Gabriel, and so on, forming factions and while not outrightly at each other's throats, they are rivals.

Angels and demons can stay for some time. Angels don't tend to hide what they are, and demons, even when disguising themselves, can be detected by Templars and Priests.

Most people publically worship angels, though there may be nations that worship demons more.

Angels and demons are killed with difficulty. On sightings, a band of soldiers, priests, Templars and usually a wizard or two is sent to slay them.
Templars and Priests are part of their own order. Because of constant threat, the feudalistic counties would have banded together to form centralized governments, closer to 1400s than 1200s Feudalism.

Wizards on the other hand are exceptionally rare. There are different 'schools' of magic, as I'm taking a lot of inspiration from Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition. Any wizard can use any school of magic, although some have specialties and talents in a given area.

It doesn't take anything special at all. Minor spells are easy and simple, and given that I can't think of a strong reason why not, minor magic will be relatively common.
The issue lies in that stronger spells involve more danger, they're harder to learn and master, and only the most intellectually keen can learn to wield it with any great degree of power.

Minor spells like producing fragrant scents, lighting and sniffing out candles and torches, cleaning surfaces. Minor stuff that's not really a danger to others.

Wizards are part of the aristocracy and they have a far greater sense of being 'free agents' than Templars or Priests. Templars help protect priests, as priests are still vulnerable to some form of magic, priests stop the soldiers they're with from being torn up by blasts of planar magic.
Templars and Priests don't present the same threat as a wizard. Templars and Priests have strength against demons and angels. Wizards are dangerous, but very necessary, in producing enchanted items that helps the priest and Templars order function. Hence why they're given status and privileges. But in the case that a wizard turns against their country, Templars are uniquely equipped to combat them (slight inspiration from the game Dragon Age: Origins).

In battle, priests protect the soldiers and weaken demon or angel abilities. Templars protect the priest. Soldiers protect the wizard, and the wizard is usually the one who blasts the demon.

Hope that answers your all questions.

I'll just add that whatever rules you should decide upon, remember they're still just plot devices, like Asimov's three laws of robotics. In the case of FMA, the law of equivalent exchange is thrown out the window in having Alphonse seeing, moving and thinking in a suit of armor without exchanging food/calories for energy. And in LOTR/The Hobbit, Gandalf (as well as Tom Bombadil) usually serves as a deus ex machina, with his powers being more of a way to move the plot along.
So I suppose I'm saying use your magic rules to your advantage as a writer telling a story rather than like a GM running a module.

You might care to have a look at the works of Terry Pratchett, particularly the later ons, dealing with Unseen University, which teaches magic.
It has a lot ot say about it.

PS. The Witches trilogy might also warrant study, butthe subject of magic, per se, is not quite so detailed.

Alice_Rosaleen said:

I'll just add that whatever rules you should decide upon, remember they're still just plot devices, like Asimov's three laws of robotics. In the case of FMA, the law of equivalent exchange is thrown out the window in having Alphonse seeing, moving and thinking in a suit of armor without exchanging food/calories for energy. And in LOTR/The Hobbit, Gandalf (as well as Tom Bombadil) usually serves as a deus ex machina, with his powers being more of a way to move the plot along.
So I suppose I'm saying use your magic rules to your advantage as a writer telling a story rather than like a GM running a module.

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Not sure about the FMA bit, as Alphonse's body was being drained of energy to keep powering the suit.
I'm definitely trying to stay away from LOTR vagueness of magic. Brandon Sanderson first law of magic: The ability to solve conflict is directly proportional to how well the reader understands it.
Second law: Limitations are more interesting than capabilities.
Limitations means it will force both myself and my characters to have to be more clever. Also helps create tension and uncertain outcomes.

Hehe GMing is hard and I usually bend rules for plot reasons and because it would just be awesome.

Also, thanks Handley, I'll check it out. So far looks like lots of intricacies and lore behind the magic of discworld.

One question sticks out to me, what happens when dark and light magic interact? Do they simply cancel? Do they react violently?

As far as channeling, could a skilled channeler push the magic potential into someone else instead of themselves?

I could see some interesting Dynamics where someone was especially skilled at channeling, but wasn't trained in spell casting. They could potentially cancel out a spell in progress by challenging opposing magic into the caster

ChasingAnna said:

One question sticks out to me, what happens when dark and light magic interact? Do they simply cancel? Do they react violently?

As far as channeling, could a skilled channeler push the magic potential into someone else instead of themselves?

I could see some interesting Dynamics where someone was especially skilled at channeling, but wasn't trained in spell casting. They could potentially cancel out a spell in progress by challenging opposing magic into the caster

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Hehe the question of "Will it blend?" is actually a major plot investigation and will be explored over the course of the story.

In terms of of transferring the energy, this may be possible.
Cancelling spells in progress? Absolutely doable, though it may not be produced by channeling the energy into the other person. If you can see the effects that are being produced, you could definitely try and counteract it.

Thank you to those that helped me flesh this out.
The first chapter is now live, hope you enjoy it.

It would take me a good hour alone to read these walls of text. I'm not going to bother.

OmnislashXX said:

It would take me a good hour alone to read these walls of text. I'm not going to bother.

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Yeah? Even reading on a phone, the paragraphs seem quite manageable to me.

The conversation with the gate guard reads really stilted. Are you going for a highly formalized exchange or the guard trying to puff up his importance?

This is an interesting discussion. I'm not a huge fantasy maven, but I loved LOTR and have read my share of fantasy and sci fi, and I've been a D&D dungeon master so I've spent time pondering how to set up magic rules to make a satisfying narrative.

I think what Alice said is right: the story comes first, and the magic exists to serve the story as a plot device. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules but in general I'd say 1) keep your magic rules as simple as you can to serve your story, in other words, introduce only as much magic as you need, and 2) don't change the rules or keep adding new magic rules or the reader will think you're cheating. But even those rules get stomped on and ignored with impunity all the time. Consider the Harry Potter series, for example. Or Game of Thrones.

Responding more to the OP's query, I'm curious how far along you are in your story. I'd say don't overthink the magic element if you haven't written or at least outlined your story. You don't need a magic element unless it serves a crucial plot point in the story. The internal logic of the magic system is less important. The story comes first, magic second.

If you're just writing a short story, maybe the magic should be secondary. When you're writing a long, magic-heavy story ( and possibly several connected stories in the same world ) it needs to be a priority and deeply fleshed out in advance. It needs to serve not only your immediate idea, but any twists and turns that your muse takes along the way.

Fantasy readers will call you out if you don't have your magic system nailed down. The category's readership is fantasy first, erotica second. In my own experience, a large chunk of them are also PnP gamers, so appreciation of the details is strong. I've had a fair number of my creations adapted back into full AD&D statistics by readers for use in their own games.

What's here is far from overthinking for the readership in the category.

Responding more to the OP's query, I'm curious how far along you are in your story. I'd say don't overthink the magic element if you haven't written or at least outlined your story. You don't need a magic element unless it serves a crucial plot point in the story. The internal logic of the magic system is less important. The story comes first, magic second.

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ChasingAnna said:

Yeah? Even reading on a phone, the paragraphs seem quite manageable to me.

The conversation with the gate guard reads really stilted. Are you going for a highly formalized exchange or the guard trying to puff up his importance?

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It's a very formal conversation. Young aristocrat with his head in books.

SimonDoom said:

This is an interesting discussion. I'm not a huge fantasy maven, but I loved LOTR and have read my share of fantasy and sci fi, and I've been a D&D dungeon master so I've spent time pondering how to set up magic rules to make a satisfying narrative.

I think what Alice said is right: the story comes first, and the magic exists to serve the story as a plot device. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules but in general I'd say 1) keep your magic rules as simple as you can to serve your story, in other words, introduce only as much magic as you need, and 2) don't change the rules or keep adding new magic rules or the reader will think you're cheating. But even those rules get stomped on and ignored with impunity all the time. Consider the Harry Potter series, for example. Or Game of Thrones.

Responding more to the OP's query, I'm curious how far along you are in your story. I'd say don't overthink the magic element if you haven't written or at least outlined your story. You don't need a magic element unless it serves a crucial plot point in the story. The internal logic of the magic system is less important. The story comes first, magic second.

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I actually managed to finish a campaign I was DMing for, and have run a few one shots. DnD is definitely a major inspiration for the magic system, or more specifically one of the magic systems is based upon Vancian magic: each spell has a fixed effect.

Story has been outlined in terms of some major plot points, as well as the ending. In high fantasy, magic-setting are interwoven, and if you're writing a main character who uses magic very often, it's extremely important because it's how tension is created and resolved and it becomes one of the centers of conflict in the story.

What I will say is that if the character is exploring the magic system as they go, as magic is a fairly recent occurrence (143 years) then rules that they think exist may not actually be the case. For the most part though, I have the fundamental rules down and they do not change.

RejectReality said:

If you're just writing a short story, maybe the magic should be secondary. When you're writing a long, magic-heavy story ( and possibly several connected stories in the same world ) it needs to be a priority and deeply fleshed out in advance. It needs to serve not only your immediate idea, but any twists and turns that your muse takes along the way.

Fantasy readers will call you out if you don't have your magic system nailed down. The category's readership is fantasy first, erotica second. In my own experience, a large chunk of them are also PnP gamers, so appreciation of the details is strong. I've had a fair number of my creations adapted back into full AD&D statistics by readers for use in their own games.

What's here is far from overthinking for the readership in the category.

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Absolutely, fantasy readers like understanding and becoming experts in the rules of the world so they get the payoff of being able to predict things before they happen.

Oh this isn't a short story this is around 140k - 180k word length, and that's probably just the first novel.

The outline of the magic systems I've put together over 7 pages, and I have a good idea of what it's capable of doing.
Just as an example of detail I've considered: why people are specialized in certain forms of magic, and the telltale signs of a certain type of spell being cast. Also how you learn more spells, what those spells can do in terms of strength, how wizards grow stronger, the hard and fast limits of how many spells can be kept in your head at once and cast in a day.

That's a very interesting point that the readership is fantasy first and erotica second. I noticed after I published the chapter that it was very fantasy heavy and just a bit of erotica (for this chapter anyway).

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I'm a fantasy reader and tabletop player (still playing D&D5 these days, and have played 4th Ed. and Pathfinder).

As a DM I've wondered about the details of spell casting and how a counterspell is used. Sometimes players who aren't sorcerers ask 'Can I try and quietly cast this spell?' And my thoughts on it are that as you go up the spell levels, you're using more magical energy and your hand movements become more grand and ostentatious, whereas simple spells are easy to hand-wave.

I'm a big fan of details, though I will say that I realised early on that I can't use spell levels in this. It would just be too much to keep track of and feel like a play by play.

RejectReality said:

If you're just writing a short story, maybe the magic should be secondary. When you're writing a long, magic-heavy story ( and possibly several connected stories in the same world ) it needs to be a priority and deeply fleshed out in advance. It needs to serve not only your immediate idea, but any twists and turns that your muse takes along the way.

Fantasy readers will call you out if you don't have your magic system nailed down. The category's readership is fantasy first, erotica second. In my own experience, a large chunk of them are also PnP gamers, so appreciation of the details is strong. I've had a fair number of my creations adapted back into full AD&D statistics by readers for use in their own games.

What's here is far from overthinking for the readership in the category.

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I think you make good points. I'll walk back what I said a little bit.

The broader point I was making is that the story and plot come first. It doesn't make sense, IMO, to overthink the magic background without first thinking through the story. The story will dictate what magic elements are necessary. I think a good general principle is to introduce only so much magic as is necessary for the story. Leave the rest out or unexplained.

That's the iceberg principle most of it should be under the water. Need to have a story, and a story can't be all iceberg

AlexCLawrence said:

It's a very formal conversation. Young aristocrat with his head in books.

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It didn't quite communicate that. It read a little bit like "using whom is formal, let me awkwardly twist the sentence to let me use whom". That would work if it's the guard feeling self important, but if it's a highly ritualized exchange, it doesn't seem to work.

Try this, what is the generalized way someone enters the palace? Separate from this exchange, how would, say, the royal caterer get in to bake a cake?

"Morning ser, just here to bake the cake for the royal wedding."

Haha you're probably right of course. Whom is very formal.

In general, my dialogue and characters need work. Everything is very rushed,
which came about because I was going full steam ahead for a major
plot point and halfway through I was like 'Let's wait till another chapter."