Quality of English too strict considering broken editor system?

NotWise said:

While awaiting more authoritative input, I'll add my two bits.

There's no problem with starting a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. You shouldn't follow the conjunction with a comma, any more than you would follow it with a comma if it were in the middle of a sentence coordinating two phrases.

"But that's what you said." No comma after "But"

"You argue now, but that's what you said." No comma after "but"

Some speakers may pause after a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence. I don't think I do unless I'm using that opening to get someone's attention. One of the rules for placement of commas is "Commas require a pause, but a pause does not require a comma."

Commas shouldn't be used just to create a pause. They should only be used when there's a specific rule requiring them.

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Well, there's another voice of reason...Thank you very much, NW. Now, let's talk some more about 'but's... can you answer the question about usage of 'but' in place of 'however'? Is there a difference? And, if not, why is 'however' followed by a comma, but 'but' isn't? (I'm so rolling on the floor right now...you know that dontcha?)

Okay...so, for those who are interested, here is what I found on this matter. According to GrammarMonster dot com, under the use of 'However' to begin a sentence, reading half-way down the page, it is stipulated that 'but' can replace 'however' as a conjunctive adverb (rather than as a coordinate conjunction) and is in fact followed by a comma in that situation. So, my use of it is proper and correct. This may be an 'old school' usage and perhaps outdated in today's writing as I suspected.

holliday1960 said:

Well, there's another voice of reason...Thank you very much, NW. Now, let's talk some more about 'but's... can you answer the question about usage of 'but' in place of 'however'? Is there a difference? And, if not, why is 'however' followed by a comma, but 'but' isn't? (I'm so rolling on the floor right now...you know that dontcha?)

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"But" is a coordinating conjunction. The coordinating conjunctions are for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so ("FANBOYS"). "However" is actually an adverb and not a conjunction at all--actually I did find one dictionary (out of five) that included a definition of "however" as a conjunction, but their example made no sense to me.

This example is from oxford dictionaries' on-line bit and it shows one of the common uses of "however" to lead a phrase that adds additional information or contradicts something already said.

"People tend to put on weight in middle age. However, gaining weight is not inevitable."

The clause following "however" is called a negation. As I understand the rules for comma placement, a negation should be offset with commas. So it's the negation, and not the "however" that requires a comma.

Other uses of "however" may not need a comma.

NotWise said:

"But" is a coordinating conjunction. The coordinating conjunctions are for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so ("FANBOYS"). "However" is actually an adverb and not a conjunction at all--actually I did find one dictionary (out of five) that included a definition of "however" as a conjunction, but their example made no sense to me.

This example is from oxford dictionaries' on-line bit and it shows one of the common uses of "however" to lead a phrase that adds additional information or contradicts something already said.

"People tend to put on weight in middle age. However, gaining weight is not inevitable."

The clause following "however" is called a negation. As I understand the rules for comma placement, a negation should be offset with commas. So it's the negation, and not the "however" that requires a comma.

Other uses of "however" may not need a comma.

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Notwise, please see my edit to the post above yours. I found the answer and give the reference for the usage as a conjunctive adverb. I was right. Our posts crossed. Thanks for trying to clear it up. This is a case of we were ALL right.

HandsInTheDark said:

If you know enough English to attempt to write in it - in other words you know a fair amount - you know more than enough to read guides on correct use of the language. Spelling in English is hard but grammar and punctuation are easy, and there are tools that you can use to check it all for free.

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I edit ESL technical authors for money. Academics, engineers, etc. etc. will pay hundreds of dollars for a service that gets their English up to publication grade, because the free tools are not good enough.

If they got through school and didn't learn to embrace the careful cultivation of English, I'm not going to linger to find out how much attention they paid to anything else. If you aren't a crystal clear communicator you're not needed. And that's for an engineering discipline. Next!

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Basic grammar is important for clear communication. Advanced grammar, not so much. Past a certain point, the skillsets largely diverge, and grammar becomes more of a shibboleth than a useful metric of communication skills.

I work with a Russian expatriate who's been here more than years and still hasn't picked up the finer points of English grammar. She says things like "You are going to the meeting, isn't it?" and "This is a good report, let me just twinkle it a bit." Nobody would ever mistake her for a native speaker.

Nevertheless, she's an excellent communicator. She understands the concepts she needs to explain, she understands where her listeners are coming from, she talks straight, and she confirms that they have understood it. I wish all the native English speakers I work with could do as much.

I have never used an editorial service from this site. Neither has another writer named Jehoram. But here's the thing: we made an agreement long ago to edit/proofread/beta-read each other's work. Perhaps you can make arrangements with another amateur writer to do this with each other's copy. It won't be a perfect system (the term "blind leading the blind" comes to mind) but surely you might be able to cover at least a few of each other's blind spots.

Jehoram and I have had an advantage in that we're both native English speakers, and we've known each other a long time. He is a professional technical writer, but has done no paid editorial work that I know of. I am a professional editor; at least, that's one of the many hats I wear. But I'm more of a "content" editor rather than a "copy" editor ... I decide what gets published, and when, but have no direct contact with the writer except for contracts and such. The copy editing is done by other people.

electricblue66 said:

Hmmm, not seen Rule 4 before, and now twice in the last fortnight.

As I see it, it's all part of the same sentence, so no capital in the middle.

Can anbody cite an authority for this rule? I'd like to know for sure - or I've been wrong for decades and never knew.

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Well there you go, wrong for decades!

"Find" will be my friend for a while. I hope I don't do it a lot, as a stylistic thing. Holliday, you get two biscuits, because I know I've done it wrong at least once!

Bramblethorn said:

I edit ESL technical authors for money. Academics, engineers, etc. etc. will pay hundreds of dollars for a service that gets their English up to publication grade, because the free tools are not good enough.

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In grad school I read Chimica Acta rather avidly. It published articles in the original language. I could read in Spanish, French and German as well as English, but I've never spoken anything but English. Russian was an issue because of the characters, so I didn't read Russian.

I've never understood why an educated, English-speaking academic shouldn't be expected to read non-English technical writing.

Just one of my long-term complaints.

holliday1960 said:

Pilot, would you please wade in on this? You know more about it than I do.

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I haven't cited anything on this thread because I'm a continent away from my references today (I may look at what I can cite from authorities in a couple of days when I'm back on the East Coast).

On the comma after an introductory "however" and "but," as well, these commas are slowly going away in publishing and it's a case of either/or, depending on the preferences of the publisher (and I doubt Laurel cares which on Literotica) as long as you remain consistent. CMS in its last iteration said that the comma could be omitted for short introductory clauses (and I do so when the clause folds smoothly in the rest of the sentence), but I'd have to check on what it says now about interjection sentence starts. My impression is that trends are getting rid of them there. CMS is pretty mealy mouthed about what constitutes "short" in an introductory clause.

electricblue66 said:

Well there you go, wrong for decades!

"Find" will be my friend for a while. I hope I don't do it a lot, as a stylistic thing. Holliday, you get two biscuits, because I know I've done it wrong at least once!

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Yes, you do it often, EB. (Go back and see Gabby. I believe I pointed that out to you then, but....) LOL Like I said, I attributed it to differences in American and British writing. I will accept your two biscuits with a smile of gratitude. (strictly for the purpose of maintaining positive international relations and all...you understand.)

sr71plt said:

I haven't cited anything on this thread because I'm a continent away from my references today (I may look at what I can cite from authorities in a couple of days when I'm back on the East Coast).

On the comma after an introductory "however" and "but," as well, these commas are slowly going away in publishing and it's a case of either/or, depending on the preferences of the publisher (and I doubt Laurel cares which on Literotica) as long as you remain consistent. CMS in its last iteration said that the comma could be omitted for short introductory clauses (and I do so when the clause folds smoothly in the rest of the sentence), but I'd have to check on what it says now about interjection sentence starts. My impression is that trends are getting rid of them there. CMS is pretty mealy mouthed about what constitutes "short" in an introductory clause.

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Thank you so much, Pilot. I will await your final determination on it, but I believe you and I are total agreement here. I found one citation online, and it led me to same conclusion as yours...I'm just getting old and out-dated. LOL Thank you again for your response and I'll expect to hear from you when you return from your travels. Be safe and have a good time.

holliday1960 said:

Yes, you do it often, EB. (Go back and see Gabby. I believe I pointed that out to you then, but....) LOL Like I said, I attributed it to differences in American and British writing. I will accept your two biscuits with a smile of gratitude. (strictly for the purpose of maintaining positive international relations and all...you understand.)

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I checked my last four chapters and Gabs, and in fact, I made the mistake on average once every 4k words (once a Lit page, roughly). So on that basis, it's not really surprising that it was a "new rule" for me - it's a stylistic thing I rarely ever use.

"What I do use a lot," he noted, "are run-on sentences like this, which I do punctuate correctly."

I don't feel so bad now - but you still get the biscuit!

RubenR said:

Reading is something completely different from writing or speaking.

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Quite true. My point may have been unclear. If more authors could publish in their native language--and actually have readers--then they wouldn't need to worry about English grammar.

RejectReality said:

I took a quick look through your published stories, and what's most likely causing the rejections is… Punctuation in dialogue.

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Google the phrase "Punctuating Dialogue Properly in Fiction Writing". Include the quotation marks; using upper case is optional.

my_other_life said:

Rule 4. If your tag comes first, capitalize the first word that is uttered by the character.

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I think this was the issue I was asked to check. The "Rule 4," as given, is not completely correct. Chicago Manual of Style 13.13 (Initial Capitol or Lowercase Letter") applies, I think (I know what is correct, but this is the closest CMS reference to the issue). Whether you capitalize the first word uttered by the character after the tag depends on what the sentence structure that includes the quote is.

Mergutroid said, "Touching me there one more time will lead to me clubbing you."

But, in the case where the quoted portion isn't a complete sentence:

Megutroid said touching her there "will lead to me clubbing you."

NotWise said:

While awaiting more authoritative input, I'll add my two bits.

There's no problem with starting a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. You shouldn't follow the conjunction with a comma, any more than you would follow it with a comma if it were in the middle of a sentence coordinating two phrases.

"But that's what you said." No comma after "But"

"You argue now, but that's what you said." No comma after "but"

Some speakers may pause after a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence. I don't think I do unless I'm using that opening to get someone's attention. One of the rules for placement of commas is "Commas require a pause, but a pause does not require a comma."

Commas shouldn't be used just to create a pause. They should only be used when there's a specific rule requiring them.

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This seems to be the other case where citation of an authority was requested.

This depends, I think, on whether the "but" or "however" is being used as an interjection or as something else, a conjunction, for instance. A conjunction wouldn't be followed by a comma, because that would separate it from the clause it's introducing.

The Chicago Manual of Style still advises using commas to set off an interjection (CMS 5.208), although, as I noted, style on this seems to be moving toward not using the comma.

However, I don't see how this is a concern of yours.

I don't see, however, how this is a concern of yours.

vs.

However you look at this, I don't see how this is a concern of yours.

I can't think of an example readily where "but" is an interjection as opposed to a conjunction. Maybe someone else can.

I think I've looked up everything being questioned on this thread now.